gle400

Haha, that's funny. I do tend to agree that Maybach in its current incarnation has been fairly thin soup. It is basically just a chauffeur version of the S/GLS-class. From what I understand, Mercedes is serious about making it more differentiated over time but they are clearly not there yet.

I would actually say it's not that they are a pseudo-luxury brand, they are a pseudo-sophisticated luxury brand.

gle400

Ouch, lot of Audi fans on this forum!

Someone should do a teardown of the Q5 as a good case study. I think it has about 95% parts overlap with the Touareg. The only things that seem to be different are the dashboard and the grille. Even the roof rack is the same. I think that VW has figured out that their customers can't or don't want to tell the difference.

Kaloteck

OK, so why don't you consider this...

superangrypenguin

This has nothing to do with people being fans of certain brands or not. I think we can all objectively agree to disagree and are all entitled to our own opinions.

The point that we are trying to make is that this argument you have brought forward carries close to no merit. There are massive differences between the Q5, the Macan, and the VW product. There is a lot of overlap between the E and the S class, as well. All passenger cars have 4 wheels so on that basis every car has overlap.

I have taken apart a lot of my A8, as I did with a W222 recently. Your argument is lost on many of our shoulders are we are detailed car people who enjoy taking things apart. The arguments you've made are those of a car novice and most mainstream premium cars these days all even share the same architecture - as MB loudly bragged in their corporate preso recently for their models moving forward.

On that subject, even MB has admitted they've been too focused whoring out their brand.

So on that basis, maybe agree to disagree but to judge each car on its merits, as opposed to invectives that hold close to 0 weight?

amir1

Superangrypenguin, you are right. Thanks for your post. One minor comment on the MBZ brands and sub-brands. The "Mercedes" brand is the main brand. The AMG brand is a sub brand that makes sportier versions of many of the main MBZ models. Maybach is the "ultra Luxury" brand that creates more luxurious versions of the standard MBZ models. In the case of the S-Class, the Maybach version was even stretched 6" or so. The Maybach S650 convertible started out as a standard S65 AMG Convertible that was sent to Brabus to get upgraded (if you want to call it that) to a Maybach. The new GLS Maybach version uses the GLS platform, but provides many luxury upgrades. While they are all MBZ cars and yes, they do share many components, they do offer very different experiences, which is why People are willing to pay extra for those sub brands. Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche share platforms as well. But the cars (the sum of their parts) clearly offer three very different experiences (and price levels)
I have personal experience with this "Brand" vs. "Sub Brand" issue. I daily drive a 2020 S560. I can't imagine a nicer daily driver. I also have a 2019 S65 AMG Coupe (lot's of fun and one of the best GTs out there) and a 2017 Maybach S650 convertible. (Its fun to Cruise Pacific Coast Hwy in it) All three offer very different experiences, while still feeling very much like Mercedes Benzes.

Wolfman

Unfortunately the conversation went a bit sideways to discuss brands.
I will also say that your comments about the A8 are somewhat off-topic. You like the A8 enough that you got one so I am happy for you. While I don't share your opinion about the S-Class inside out, or the A8 interior (Audi sports excellent interior quality but the dash is already dated looking to me), my opinion is just like everyones; subjective.

Technically though, the E-ABC suspension in the GLE/GLS is already more advanced than Audis without adding the side-raise party trick. Kudos to Audi for implementing it, kudos for Mercedes to think it's a great idea and improving on it. Any idea that reduces potential injury in accidents should find their place is as many cars as possible.

superangrypenguin

You have quite the list of beautiful cars and my personal hats off to you for such a diversified and fun set of cars! My next one is the Flying Spur which is close to a VW Beetle

All that being said, I really am looking forward to the eABC and am eagerly (very I might add) looking forward to sitting in a W223 in a showroom soon!

gle400

(Side note - sorry for turning this thread into a flame war about Audi, not sure how that happened, haha)

Ah but let me clarify my point a bit. VW and Audi are not actually both luxury brands. VW is an entry-level consumer brand, and Audi is supposed to be a Luxury brand.

To use an analogy in the fashion world, this is a bit like, say, Coach handbags vs. Chanel handbags. One is say $200 and the other is $4000. But they do not share materials, components or assembly lines. They are actually different products.

But in the case of Audi, this is where the scammy part comes in. Audi is not a separate company from VW, and Audi does not use distinct components. They are doing what GM does - they are taking a Volkswagen consumer product, and then sticking a different grill on it, changing the tail light module, sticking a different dashboard on it, and possibly adding some digital performance turning to the engine, and pretending that suddenly that consumer Volkswagen is now a Luxury-grade product.

But it is still the same consumer Volkswagen with a big grille. By changing the grille, it has not been upgraded in quality to become a Luxury product. And all the way up and down Audi's lineup, they are doing this GM playbook.

While Mercedes may share parts between models, Mercedes does not have a consumer brand. And so everything is built and designed to a higher standard across the board (now to be fair, I am ignoring entry-level products like the A-class). And while there may be some overlap between different lines, such as between E and S, both the E and S are high-quality, relatively high-priced Luxury products. This is a bit like Chanel sharing pieces of cut leather between their small handbag and a big handbag. They are both still luxury components. But that is not what Audi is doing - they are taking the Coach handbag, changing 5-10% of the parts, and then putting a Chanel logo on it. Just putting the Chanel logo on it does not make it a luxury product.

This is why Audi (and Lexus, et al) is such a scam in my view, and also why their products are cheaper. Because they are taking much cheaper consumer products, and then just rebadging them with the absolute most minimal change possible - a la GM.

As for Porsche, I don't know if they are sharing platforms and parts post-merger. If they are, that would truly be a very sad thing.

gle400

Switching topics back to E-ABC, here is the latest update from my dealer FWIW:

"I am getting mixed messages but it seems that the E-Active Body Control could be postponed until 2022"

He is waiting to get final confirmation from the inventory manager, so this is not final. But this is a bit scary - I really hope it is not delayed until 2022. Even if they release the 2022 model a few months early, this would not be orderable until ~Q3 of 2021. I don't want to wait that long, especially since I already put my order in. Will update as I get more.

Curious if anyone else heard any definitive information about E-ABC?

superangrypenguin

Are you aware the vast majority of parts for any carmaker are *not* made by the carmaker themselves? Mercedes started bragging about this as early as the W204, and even earlier. You're using the same arguments perpetuated by amateurs on the internet. Try to elevate yourself from it. It's almost as if you forgot the Daimler Chrysler merger as well...

All this to state, at least the eABC system is developed in house, just like with Audi....

PS Mercedes is a consumer brand. I don't think I've ever read so much 'silly' on MBW before. Anyway, back OT.

Kaloteck

Sonic Boom

Does E-ABC (previously Magic Body Control) make that drastic of a difference in ride comfort to delay ordering for possibly up to a year? I assumed the S-class AIRMATIC was darn good without it.

Wolfman

Coming from the guy that thought that E-ABC was included with the S580 anyway?
At this point, it's unlikely that any dealer in the US will know anything. Same with MBUSA; it is unlikely that they would provide any directives about this at this point.

superangrypenguin

The main advantage for this sort of system, whether or not on MB or VAG products, or whatever, is not the whole ironing out speed bumps thing, but the active ability to lean into turns and to reduce squat/dive.

I will state that I was in a similar predicament with the 'other' brand that we've touched on and wished I had waited. Air ride is great but some level of proactivity to reduce roll/pitch/squat is also mighty welcome.

That said though, there is the reliability aspect of it for those who aren't leasing (I own, so it's something that weighed heavily from a cost benefit perspective)

Sonic Boom

Thanks for your input. I’m much more of a ‘comfort’ driver than a ‘sporty’ driver, so is there any real benefit for my type for “proactivity to reduce roll/pitch/squat?” Is not like I’m flying around curves or anything, I prefer to take it nice n slow with the comfort setting on at all times.

Additionally, there is also a low reliability history of the system??

Wolfman

Relevant points. Given that Mercedes has used air suspensions for close to 60 years and ABC for just over 20 years, they have experience with the pros/cons of functionality and reliability. While the benefits were apparent, both had rather significant failure rates in the early years. ABC has been very reliable since 2013 and is a non-issue suspension. Air suspension used to be only semi-active vs the fully active ABC, which handles body roll/lean from inception, added crosswind stabilization in 2010 and the curve function in 2014.
MBC was also an absolute no-brainer for a W222 RWD S-Class. Different level ride quality and the pre-scan functions improved over time.

What is interesting is that Mercedes was able to improve its air suspension from cushy soft to a AMG performance firmness and rebound speed. AMG of course had to add more confusion calling it also ABC (for Air Body Control). Mercedes Air and ABC suspension are the very reliable and I expect E-ABC to be no different.

The off-road version of E-ABC is already out for a year. Focus is obviously different on the S-Class with more smoothness and additional safety features but this is still worth looking at.

MBNUT1

I guess that is what you meant by you would like to see the A8 wiggle out of the snow? Assuming the same level of actuation power that is just software and not all that complicated either.

gle400

Yeah, good point. This guy doesn't seem to really know much. I'm still waiting to hear back with the definitive answer. FWIW, it is definitely not listed anywhere in the MB North America dealer guide PDF for the 2021 S class, not even as an option. I also was not able to find it as an option on the German configurator.

It is also a bit strange frankly that it is delayed because they launched E-ABC with the GLE a while ago. I realize this version is different, and perhaps better, but still - it's not really a totally new tech for Mercedes.

Given that Mercedes has touted E-ABC so much, frankly, in their 2021 S-class marketing, and listed it as an option for 2021 in their official press documentation - if they do actually delay it to 2022 model year, they might face a black eye in the press (not to mention with customers, like us). The headlines would certainly look bad. Perhaps they will try to split the difference, and launch it in the final months of the 2021. I am really hoping that that is what happens.

Has anyone else heard anything?

superangrypenguin

ABC isn't really that crazy of a suspension though. I mean, it's hydraulic based and what not. eABC is basically brand new tech, whether or not implemented by MB or by other carmakers (all in house as well). I mean, first, we're talking about utilization of the 48V system here, where a tremendous amount of force is being exerted at each wheel to keep things on the up and up. Only time will tell if these things are reliable, but I mean, we're adding icing on the cake, so to speak, of relatively unproven technology.

Yeah it's a software thing. The A8 and the S class (latter is my guess) don't do it because it's pointless. The MB SUV's - one could make an argument for wiggling themselves out of a sand dune or whatever but the application isn't relevant in a luxo-barge.

The issue isn't that there's a low reliability history of the system per se as it's a new system, but it's the fact it's unproven. Remember the constant Airmatic issues of the W220? Who knows if this is a repeat?

I'm a comfort driver too. The A8's suspension is tuned even softer than the W222 (no idea about the 223 as I haven't driven it), but that downside is, well, it handles like a boat. If one can have the suppleness of an A8 with the turning suspension performance of an R8, then, well the only two other concerns is reliability and cost benefit.

As far as I understand it, the eABC system of the W223 and the A8 are very similar in operation but not enough time has passed to judge reliability.

gle400

One point to correct though, is that E-ABC is more advanced than the A8 system and is different. They are not equivalent systems.

The A8 system is comprised of electrical motors only. E-ABC is electric motors and hydraulics stacked and operating in tandem. Hydraulics add a lot, as it increases the range of motion and the overall power and flexibility of the system significantly. Because of this, the E-ABC has greater ability to dampen, and move, the individual struts up and down. The main benefit of having a purely electric system is that it is cheaper, a key priority at Volkswagen. The A8 is still, at the end of the day, a high-trim level Volkswagen.

Also, the A8 system is really more about keeping the car level with reactive measures. E-ABC with Road Scanning has a more ambitious goal of eliminating vibration and inertia from bumps, and builds on the long history of MBC and ABC before it.

Now all of that said, still does not excuse the delays on release...

Kaloteck

Says who?

Kaloteck

Nah... They ditch the hydraulics and go all electric this time around, just like the A8.

superangrypenguin

Take your pick of whatever car reviewer in the UK that has mentioned it.

Carwow, Whatcar, Carbuyer...

However, let's bring things back on track and focus on the W223 exclusively on this thread.

MBNUT1

GLS with E-ABC handles well, rides like crap per this article."When driving over broken pavement, some judges felt more vibrations in the cabin than in the Subaru Outback and were left wondering where the benefit and value resided in such a fancy suspension—a $6,500 option, at that.

"I'm shocked that both the Outback and Aviator rode nicer than the GLS," features editor Christian Seabaugh said. "I shouldn't be able to feel anything beneath me in the 'S-Class of SUVs,' yet the Mercedes still gets upset over high-frequency impacts.""

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/merc...d-cons-review/

But hey it can do cool party tricks.....

Heaven help you if you need that system repaired out of warranty.

gle400

FWIW E-ABC does have hydraulics actually (it is both electrical and hydraulic) - see here for example:

https://www.bilstein.com/us/en/blog/...emium-comfort/

The regulated shock absorber is referring to the electrical part, while the hydraulic part of the description is referring to the hydraulic portion.