absent

I have received a Taycan 4S to use for a week, to convince me to switch from ICE.
I have to admit, this entry level Taycan has more performance then one can ever use in a daily driver, I am just shocked how good this car is in all traffic conditions.
Car is much more comfortable then I expected, there was no deterioration in performance whether I had 30% or 100% available charge, unlike the Tesla I tried a few years ago where the drop in acceleration was very significant as the day went by .
I have a very heavy foot and the range drops very quick but amazingly the Porsche still maintains the power (granted, I tested a Tesla 90D not the current 100).
I found myself really enjoying the handling and mind blowing acceleration when wanting to pass anything on the road.
I have to agree, this car is superior to ICE, I absolutely love driving the thing.
Having said that, I cancelled my order for Lucid Dream, I will not get any electric car in the foreseeable future, not because ICE is better (it is not) but because the infrastructure is not there yet.
I would need to modify the electric supply in my car to 240v, current 110 would require probably a week of charging to get 100%.
There are 2 locations for Electrify America in my area (within 15 miles), both will charge this car at 0.2mile/minute, it is not practical and makes no sense, it makes the usability of these cars limited to only very small, local area.
Tesla is better in this regard with their network of charging stations.
The actual range of this Taycan is only about 150 miles in my personal (very inefficient, I admit), driving style.
It is a great concept (EV), just not yet ready for my needs, the infrastructure, the speed of charging is not there yet.
I would be a convert without any doubt if charging these cars was reduced in time to something closer to a usual fill up at a gas station (even triple the time would be acceptable).
I truly hope that when the new EQS arrives, the charging would be improved and reduced in time significantly.
Btw, Lucid has supposedly superior range to other EVs but it has no local support here in case you need something repaired, has no reliability record true range most likely would a half (at best) in my personal use.
Well, back to ICE for now......

190Efan

I think the battery charging time issue is continuing to drop as new advances are made and will continue to do so in the coming years. One of the reasons I prefer hydrogen to electric is that you can refuel a hydrogen powered car in about the same time you can refuel a gas powered car. My engineer father was a big proponent of hydrogen powered cars. Hopefully our country will now finally get it's act together on this and the current infrastructure issues well get solved.

Wolfman

Am eager to see the EQS as we have been wanting to add an EV for the obvious benefits Absent mentioned.

Mercedes offers a reliable service and repair network which is key for any car we drive. We have stayed away from certain exotics for that reason alone.

I am less concerned about the charging network as a 240V home charger is easy enough to install. But the lack of a charging network even if Tesla will open theirs to other brands will make it a local driver only.

Rather than hydrogen I think solid state batteries will be the solution. They will charge as fast or faster than ICE and prototypes already last an equivalent of half a million miles.

js_cls

Great post OP. I also had a chance to drive a Taycan last year when they first arrived at dealers, although this was a Turbo model. The car handles extremely well, the interior is nice (although I expected less plastic) and the exterior is beautiful, but the charging infrastructure is non-existent here on the east coast in MD outside of superchargers and the price is way too high in my opinion.

My biggest worry wasn't long road trips, as we have a GLC for that, but driving this car how its meant to be driven, hard. I often go back roading and will travel north into PA to go into the mountains and drive, as well as experience the great backroads in my cars. The Taycan would excel in its handling here, but I worry as to how the range will suffer when throwing the car into a corner and changes in elevations. While a gas car will also suffer MPG issues, gas stations are plentiful in these location and refuel in a few minutes, chargers however, don't exist as these areas are more rural and empty and would take a while.

Also Electrify America's customer support is abysmal. The chargers design doesn't work with a lot of cars, and the reliability of these chargers have been poor. My friend went through a nasty lemon-law/return case with his Audi E-Tron. While a lot of the problems he experienced were with Audi, he also had many with EA. From chargers not working, to getting stuck in the car, slow charging speed, to customer support barely helping him on the phone, and he even cancelled a thanksgiving trip due to an inconvenience with the only close EA charger to him. Overall, the infrastructure needs work for me to consider a non-Tesla EV.

EV's have a great future, but outside of being a commuter car, I would not buy one yet, at least for my driving style.

superswiss

Yep, that's exactly where the Taycan makes zero sense to me. It is the first EV that has me interested, because Porsche knows driving dynamics, which Tesla just doesn't at all, but as you said if you actually want to use the performance it offers more than just the occasional traffic light drag race and showing off to your friends, you'll quickly run out of battery. I also do a lot of canyon loop driving on weekends, and this wouldn't work at all. I would end up stranded in the middle of nowhere. For giggles I used ABRP a while back to see what it would take to do one of my typical 200+ mile loops and even with normal driving it would only be possible with a huge non-sensical detour and that was with a Tesla Model 3 Performance where there is a supercharger along the highway in that area. If actually drove the car like I do my AMG on those canyon roads, no chance. So that's where this car just doesn't make any sense. You don't need this kind of performance if you can only reasonably commute with it or run your daily errands. Absolutely pointless, IMHO.

If I had a commute I would totally consider an EV as a commuter car, but outside of that I just can't get on board. I also don't really agree that EVs are better than ICE. I've driven manual transmission cars for well over 15 years and even now I drive my AMG about 90% in manual mode. There's just no involvement in driving in an EV. It's like playing a video game. There's no sound crescendo, no finesse in shifting gears to keep the engine in its sweet spot etc. It's very clinical. It's just like riding a high speed train or a rollercoaster which is fun once in a while. EVs are very one-dimensional. They have insane acceleration from a stop with all the torque available instantaneously, but that's about it. They can't sustain the performance and they fall off at the top. Even the Taycan starts reducing performance as the battery gets lower, it's just not as extreme as with Tesla and the Taycan as compared to Tesla doesn't get hot if you hoon on it, so you don't start loosing as much performance. The Taycan as opposed to Teslas was built with the German Autobahn in mind. Musk just has zero concept of driving pleasure, IMHO. His long term goal is to stop having humans drive cars. That's not what I aspire.

190Efan

Hi Wolfaman, my father was an engineer and a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers so this issue was part of my childhood. All batteries need to be charged by electricity to be able to function. Currently, electricity is created by burning the planet damaging fossil fuels. The supply of fossil fuels will eventually run out because there was a finite supply of dinosaurs from whose remains fossil fuels were generated. The supply of fossil fuels will run out so a new source of energy to generate electricity from must be found. Hydrogen is the solution. My engineer father was a firm believer in hydrogen. In contrast, the supply of hydrogen is limitless since it's the most abundant element in the universe. The only by product from burning hydrogen is water. Hydrogen powered cars can be refueled in the same amount of time as ICE cars. EVs are no where near to that speed. Superswiss, the problem with using ICE is that they run on the planet damaging fossil fuels and our planet can no longer withstand that.

Wolfman

I don't disagree with the concept of hydrogen. But this has been in the development phase for the last 30 years or so and the first realistic use of hydrogen is on the commercial side. Solid state batteries on the other hand are coming sooner rather than later. Japan is betting big on that... and they offer huge benefits, including quick charges.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tec...for-2021-debut

Re. the whole discussion about EV's being as dirty as the electricity they are running on; this is true and the US has only 18% renewable in the energy mix. Germany is better at close to 45%. While I hope that this ratio is rapidly improving I still think that EV's are the most realistic path to go...

superswiss

There's no doubt that we can't go on burning dead dinosaurs. That's not what I was getting at. My point is that today's EVs are not it, IMO, and many are plain stupid. A Taycan is like a Ferrari with a 5 gallon tank, when it comes to actually using it as a performance car. Then there are the 5000+ lbs E-SUVs like the e-tron that are just plain stupid, IMO. The OECD came out with a report recently saying that EVs will produce more particulate fine dust than ICE cars. That's because very little of the particulate fine dust actually comes from the combustion process and the OPF will further reduce that. Most actually comes from the tires and the roads and the brakes. EVs tend to be significantly heavier, so there is more particulate fine dust from the tires and the roads due to the heavy weight of these cars.

Hydrogen is somewhat of a pipe dream honestly. While it is the most abundant element in the universe, it doesn't exactly fall from the sky to be collected. It takes a lot of energy to produce hydrogen, so the overall efficiency is terrible, and there is still no container that will fully hold hydrogen. The hydrogen molecules are so small that given enough time it will seep out of anything. Renewables are also equally challenged as long as large storage infrastructure is non-existent. Germany still has to run a parallel system to bridge the gaps in their solar and wind production and they have to burn off the excess energy during the summer or ship it off to other countries who increasingly don't want it, because the spikes are causing issues in their grids.

I honestly think we need to rethink personal mobility. Car ownership is probably going away long term.

stealth.pilot

I'm a huge fan of EVs and Plug-in Hybrids too. The best thing is not having to go to the petrol station since you can charge at home. On my Porsche, I last filled the petrol on September 2nd and have done over 1000 miles with a third of a tank still remaining and an average MPG of >78.

superswiss

Here's some related food for thought from Musk himself and the CEO of Toyota regarding what it means to convert to electric cars on a large scale. I think people easily forget that the dinosaur juice doesn't just run our cars, but it's also the basis of many many things we rely on, not least the plastic in cars etc. and the natural gas we rely on to bridge the lack of sun and wind is a byproduct of drilling for oil.

Musk: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...164927709.html
Toyoda: https://carbuzz.com/news/toyota-ceo-has-harsh-words-about-electric-vehicles

190Efan

Those who continue to tout EVs are completely missing my point. What happens when the dinosaur rot that currently is burned to generate the electricity that charges EV batteries runs out which it eventually will do because it's supply is finite? @superswiss, for the record hydrogen is twice as efficient as gasoline. The other obstacles you cited can be overcome with non fossil fuel solutions. My engineer father had bachelors and masters degrees in engineering, was a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers and had more than 40 years of engineering work experience. My money's on him concerning hydrogen as the solution.

superswiss

I think you meant doubt, but I'm not trying to spread doubt. What I'm saying is that the challenge is much bigger than most realize. I'm an engineer as well. Like Musk, I've been telling my friends who have bought EVs that we will have to build new nuclear plants to replace the energy that we currently get from fossil fuels. They don't wanna hear that part, especially in Germany where the politics is marching towards the complete exit from nuclear power. They'll likely be buying electricity from France, who will then just build more nuclear plants next to the German border. There's no magic replacement for fossil fuels.

Huncowboy

Only 150 miles? That is disappointing. Even with some dynamic driving I was expecting more than that. I have a heavy foot too, though here in FL it is not an issue. The occasional sprint after a red light gets old fast and there is nothing else really. But I can see what you mean driving a canyon up and down. Yeah that will suck the juice out fast. Still 150 miles, is just... ugh...

I was seriously considering the Taycan as well for the same reason. It is the first EV by a great manufacturer. It is my subjective opinion, and please if you love your Tesla, I am happy for you, just skip the next two sentences. Again, no disrespect to anyone but in my opinion, the Tesla is complete garbage at that price. I have yet to see one that has all the panels fit perfectly. They all look like salvage titles. It is hard to believe that it comes from the same guy who puts rockets into space. It is also just ugly and very boring to look at. The Taycan on the other hand is a solid car, it looks good too, though the front is a bit of a... meh... it is okay I guess. But it is too small for a family car, it is even smaller than a E or 5 series if I am not mistaken. If I was shopping for smaller cars at $140k+, I would get back into a 911. So it ended up being scratched from our list a while back, but if it only does 150 on a charge... forget it. I am sure it is great to drive, but so is the 911 or a Panamera for the same price.

As far as EVs. I always thought the efficiency is what made the difference. The source of power is dirty, and it will stay mostly dirty for some time to come, but it is being used in a much more efficient way. I believe it was something like 3x more efficient. I may be off on that but it definitely delivers more to the wheel than a gasoline engine by a large factor. That EQS concept from MB looks great. If the promised mileage will hold, I might end up in one if the production model will be close to the concept. But I think it will take many many more years to get a charging network that is even remotely similar to network of gas stations we have now. I can also see charging stations becoming more spread out vs how gas stations are now. I feel the typical commuter will always charge at home as much as possible. I don't see how 2-3 gas stations, that we can see at every major intersection today, will survive as a charging station.

Edit: Maybe if Starbucks combines a charging station with coffee LOL. That could work. I could start charging and it takes 15 mins to get my coffee anyways, I might as well pick up some overpriced KWs as well.

superswiss

Correct, the efficiency on the consumption side is much higher, but that doesn't mean it's higher at the production side. The theoretical maximum thermal efficiency is 60%, that's the physical limit, but in practice you don't get near that, so a fossil power plant still has quite a low efficiency, then you lose some transporting the power to where it's needed and a little more in the car itself. So it really all comes down to how you produce the electricity. Solar, wind, hydro, geothermal and nuclear are essentially our zero emissions sources for power generation, but each is not free of environmental impacts, and there is biomass, which is CO2 neutral. I think many people don't realize how big of an area you have to cover with solar and wind farms just to produce the equivalent of a nuclear plant. We are talking huge amounts of land, which is kinda ironic to plaster the nature full of solar panels and windmills in the name of saving that very environment. As I said, there is no magic bullet. The energy has to come from somewhere, and everything has an impact, but we can get more efficient with how we are using the energy. People should stop driving as much for example, but the opposite is actually happening. Once somebody buys an EV, they have this mindset that they can now drive wherever they want since they supposedly have zero emissions now. Miles driven is actually going up, which ultimately leads to more emissions at the source. And one of the points that are being made is the current conversion to renewables is so far only to cover our current demand. Imagine what has to happen if the demand doubles or even triples due to everything going electric.

Huncowboy

That is an interesting point. I did not consider the efficiency of the production side. As far as supply. I think what will happen is they will re-market the image of nuclear. Marketing has sold us healthy red wines, low fat chicken breast, and a million other things. They will have to turn to nuclear at one point to satisfy the demand unless something truly new comes along. Once they make up their mind, it will only take a few years and nuclear will shine like a diamond in a goat's rear.

MBNUT1

I agree with everything that you said, but to add a little perspective in my zipcode where we get a fair amount of electricity from coal you could drive a Tesla Model 3 AWD 3 times the distance as either of your two posted cars or my car and still have lower CO2 emissions That said I recognize the impact on infrastructure requirements.

absent

I forgot to address the size issue you have mentioned.
Taycan feels small, very, very small especially next to S-Class.
I found it more difficult for my frame (6'4", 230lbs) to get in or out then in a 911, the latter has a larger door opening and it makes a huge difference.
Back seat is just unobtanium for anyone my size.

Tom in Austin

The great opportunity for the future is green hydrogen. The best way to store solar power is to produce hydrogen, either at a farm or perhaps someday at your corner gas station. Hydrogen gas can be stored and transported as least as safely and efficiently as natural gas.

BEVs are just a brief experiment on the way to the real long-term replacement for fossil fuels.

Ian Ffield

I’ve been driving EVs for years and working on them as a technician for almost 2 years. I can tell you that daily ownership and driving experience is a breeze and often preferable once you have a charging routine. You shouldn’t shame a vehicle for its range or charging infrastructure when daily commutes are often under 100mi a day, with 110v outlets everywhere. That for me eliminates range anxiety. EVs are the perfect daily driver. But not a good sports tourer as the Taycan suggests...

But EVs are not perfect and still in the early years of slow fast charging and batteries/modules/parts that are proprietary, expensive, on the ragged edge of performance, etc, reliability issues, etc... And nobody wants to sit at a fast charger. Why do you think the Japanese don’t have fancy EVs yet? They know the products are not actually ready. They will let the consumers/Tesla beta test those and test the market.

I think the mainstream answer in the immediate 10-15 years should be PHEV. Need to fast charge? Go visit the empty but once populated gas station down the road instead of waiting for electrons to flow down a cable.

Other reasons 100mi range PHEVs are the future (and coming soon): refined tech/lack of issues, cheaper to buy and service, battery supply issues mitigated, some small town auto shops already service hybrid.

The only immediate future EVs deserve is cheap economy cars. But instead we have these expensive proprietary hyper range faux luxury cars that are all the trend and hype right now. It’s very unfortunate. Maybe one day, the fast charging, battery, and service infrastructure will feel refined like ICE. And pure EV should be the ultimate goal. But I can understand and agree with Toyota in that it believes it is actually greener to litter the world with super cheap and efficient hybrids than try to convince the world of an unfinished product. Tesla has done a great job with that, but their time is running out and service centers busting at the seams. Meanwhile, you have companies like GM and Hyundai taking production and tech slow and conservative on purpose. I wonder why?

190Efan

My engineer father with German ancestry taught me that nuclear power isn't green because no one has come up with a solution for disposing of the harmful waste that nuclear power plants generate and that can last for thousands of years. Germany understands this better than most. They took one look at what happened in Japan in 2011 and they were done with nuclear power. Nuclear power is also extraordinarily expensive and is way more expensive than renewable sources of energy. Renewables are the way to go and especially hydrogen. My money is on my engineer father that he's right about hydrogen.

mercedesmax

Why? Because EV cars are very expensive and have a very limited market right now. Only Tesla has been successful and that is more due to the rich wanting to make a statement about their driving(same as if they bought a Ferrari or Lambo) Everyone els is struggling to sell EV's and is losing money selling them.
For the average car buyer, the cost of getting the car, the cost of outfitting an at home charger and the limits on where you can drive without recharging are still too high.
The costs will come down, but it will take years if not decades. When IC cars first appeared they were toys for the rich. It took a couple of decades before the costs came down so that almost anyone could afford one.

Ian Ffield

EVs really are not that expensive, especially when considering operating costs. You can get a 2-3 year old Chevy bolt for $15k. If you drive a lot and intend on keeping it awhile, you can come out ahead vs ICE in cost when comparing comparable model year and segment. Maybe not in a Tesla. But used or incentive Nissan or Chevy can be fairly economical/cheap to run for an average family.

superswiss

Cost is less and less of an issue. I actually think that EVs will become mainstream primarily because of their lower operating costs as word gets around. Some manufacturers haven't gotten the message yet. Audi for example imposes a 10k scheduled maintenance interval on the etron. Not sure what there's to do. Some of the cheaper costs are temporary though. Sooner or later incentives such as tax credits, free parking perks and lowered tolls etc will go away and EVs will have to pay their share for road upkeep, especially since the heavier weights put more wear on the roads. Ideas such as taxes based on miles driven are already in discussion.

mercedesmax

I'm sorry but a used Chevy Bolt is a S**T car. Most families buy SUV's, or minivans. A Bolt ain't gonna cut it. If we are bringing used cars into a new car discussion it would make more sense to buy a used Hyundai.
We are talking about new cars here. New electric cars are more expensive than their ICE equivalents, which is why outside of Tesla no one is doing well with them. Mercedes won't even bring the EQC over here. They are hoping that the EQS can attract the Tesla lifestyle crowd.

Wolfman

I am still a bit surprised at the discussion. Hydrogen is simply not in the mix. Nice discussion topic but not cars people will buy nor manufacturers will build. Personally also couldn't care less what Toyota thinks. German car manufacturers are betting the bank on EV's and PHEV's for the transition because they have to. For one, they don't want to end up like Nokia, Blackberry and Microsoft after Apple wiped the floor with them and they can't afford the penalties they have to pay for not meeting the European carbon emissions. Mercedes already delayed deliveries of AMG's and bigger engine MB's until early next year to reduce the $Billion+ fine.

Germany is making a radical shift and they are finally making it fast. Customers in Europe are picking EV's in no small part to the generous subsidies available but the manufacturers are thinning out the model lineup to make space for EV's, despite the lacking infrastructure. They also leveraging the pandemic to reduce headcount at the factories and supply chain as EV's require a fraction of these well paid and skilled union workers (this likely being is a longterm process).