onebigfamily53

Wow, you are so correct but funny thing is NO phone to put down (phone not working at the time) and second I was actively braking hence why brake assist did not engage per MB...Thank you for the advice though!

onebigfamily53

Yes I was in gridlock traffic as I have driven in majority of my life. I am very familiar in driving in this situation. I did lift my foot above the brake pedal as I had done for the approximately 45/50 minutes prior but I did not rotate my foot as you state. When the vehicle was gentle rolling as you state it did not come to a stop when I applied the brake, I began pumping the brake and pushing as hard as a could. The vehicle did not stop by my lack of trying or as you say user error, the vehicle only stopped on impact where it turned off and turned back on.

FYI, I was not using Drive Assist Control as well. The brakes failed!

chassis

If this proceeds to a lawsuit MBUSA will read the ECU and will have all of the data they need to discern precisely what happened. A consumer’s view of what data was, or was not, stored is meaningless.

MBNUT1

The only question I have is the data storing algorithm. For sure in the event of an airbag deployment the data would be saved by the EDR. I hope that the ECU recorded the event regardless.

superswiss

The brakes not working is obviously a major issue. How did the brake pedal feel? Was it really soft or really hard?

I know hindsight is always 20/20, but the thing to do in this situation is to immediately apply the e-brake.

Btw we don't really know which posts you are replying to if you don't quote them.

onebigfamily53

Thank you!

onebigfamily53

Based on the post from SuperSwiss...yes I am a newbie to this forum and I do believe I have replied to all comments. I selected quick reply thus just shows as a general reply so now I think I have figured out how to reply to the comment. I really do appreciate all the comments honestly as I would never in my right mind think this situation would happen as I know MB strives on safety. On that note. I have asked about the EDR, the diagnostic reports (pre and post accident) as I have yet to received any type of information from the service department and/or MBUSA. Recap. I was not using Distronic's, I was not relying on the intelligent drive system, I am merely trying to find out more information as why certain aspects of that system would not have engaged based on review several reports by MB. I was paying attention to driving along with the truck in front of us. I was not using a phone. I am familiar with grid lock traffic and kept the vehicle a good distance where as I should have been able to stop without incident. I did actively apply the brakes (hence why brake assist did not engage per MB) I pumped the brakes and push down as hard as I could and the actual brakes did not stop the vehicle. There was not anything hindering my use of the brake pedal (shoes or extra floor mats). Upon impact our vehicle turned off then back on, I actually have a photograph of code that came up to support this. I have several CCTV videos (pre and post) accident that reflect the vehicle doing odd things along with photographs of error codes. With that said, the vehicle has had issues from the day it was delivered to our home of which I was not made aware of as the sales person cleared an error code prior to my test driving. I have been dealing with the selling dealership and MBUSA on classifying the vehicle as a lemon prior to the accident. Side note, our previous vehicle 2020 S560 was awesome, I made a decision to purchase the 2021 S580 after I saw all the upgrades. A decision I now regret. We did not have any issues with S560 believe me I would love our previous vehicle back. I am really terrified of our S580 and refuse to drive or be a passenger. I will not put myself and/or my family in harms way due to what happened. Most of the comments are valid points to make and again I appreciate all the feedback. Just trying to understand.

onebigfamily53

Interesting. I would love to know and I will research our VIN on our end. Thank you for your reply!

onebigfamily53

Just wanted you to know I researched our VIN and these are two recalls that came up, I have yet to receive any notification by MBUSA. One recall has a remedy and one does not as of yet. This may be what your notice/letter was pertaining to. Hopefully MB can resolve your recalls.

2 Unrepaired Recallsassociated with this VIN

Oct 08,2021
Manufacturer Recall Number2021100010
NHTSA Recall Number21V789
Recall StatusRecall IncompleteSummaryMercedes-Benz AG ("MBAG") has determined that on certain Model Year ("MY") 2021 S-Class (223 platform) vehicles, the airbag control unit software might not meet specifications. The control unit for the occupant recognition might be deactivated permanently by the airbag control unit upon vehicle shut-down. As a consequence, the passenger airbag might be deactivated despite an occupant sitting on the front passenger seat. This could increase the risk of injuries for the passenger in the event of a crash with a potential airbag deployment. An authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer will update the airbag control unit software on the affected vehicles.

Safety RiskThe control unit for the occupant recognition might be deactivated permanently by the airbag control unit upon vehicle shut-down. As a consequence, the passenger airbag might be deactivated despite an occupant sitting on the front passenger seat. This could increase the risk of injuries for the passenger in the event of a crash with a potential airbag deployment.

RemedyAn authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer will update the airbag control unit software on the affected vehicles.

Manufacturer's NotesRecall information is available going back to January 1, 1990.

If the manufacturer has failed or is unable to remedy this safety recall for your vehicle in a timely manner, please contact the NHTSA Vehicle Safety Hotline at: 1-888-327-4236 or TTY: 1-800-424-9153 or file an online complaint with NHTSA.
Oct 29,2021
Manufacturer Recall Number2021110002
NHTSA Recall Number21V843
Recall StatusRecall Incomplete, remedy not yet availableSummaryMercedes-Benz AG ("MBAG"), the manufacturer of Mercedes-Benz vehicles, has determined that on certain Model Year ("MY") 2021-2022 S-Class and Mercedes-Benz Maybach S-Class (223 platform) vehicles, the engine control unit software might not meet current production specifications. In this case, the vehicle may stall shortly after engine start, and a subsequent restart might not be possible. This might occur suddenly without pre-warning, and independent of the driving situation, increase the risk of a crash. An authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer, will update the engine control unit software on the affected vehicles.

Safety RiskIn this case, the vehicle may stall shortly after engine start, and a subsequent restart might not be possible. This might occur suddenly without pre-warning, and independent of the driving situation, increase the risk of a crash.

RemedyAn authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer, will update the engine control unit software on the affected vehicles.

Manufacturer's NotesRecall information is available going back to January 1, 1990.

chassis

One view of how vehicle event data is recorded. The definition of "excessive" is relevant to this situation.

https://exchange.aaa.com/automotive/...data-recorder/

Event Data Recorder

You may have heard of an aircraft flight data recorder, or “black box,” but did you know that your car may be equipped with something similar? Ninety-five percent of new vehicles have an onboard Event Data Recorder (EDR) that captures and stores vehicle data for several seconds before, during and after any crash where an airbag is triggered or there is an excessive rate of vehicle deceleration.

Compared to their airplane counterparts, EDRs have limited capabilities. The latest digital flight data recorders capture more than 700 pieces of information and the plane’s position, while the companion cockpit voice recorder stores the last two hours of flight crew communications. EDRs, on the other hand, generally gather data for a minimum of 15 parameters, including speed, acceleration and braking, and do not record vehicle location or audio data.

EDRs first appeared in vehicles in the mid-1970s as a way for automakers to monitor airbag performance and aid in making modifications to improve their effectiveness. Since then automakers, researchers and law enforcement have used EDRs for a variety of purposes, including crash reconstruction.

Following a collision, drivers may not recall all of the events, but information gleaned from the EDR can provide a reliable snapshot of what the vehicle and driver were doing just before and after a crash. Information from the EDR is then used in conjunction with other crash analysis techniques to provide investigators with a full picture of what happened.

So, how do you know if your car is equipped with an EDR? Their appearance and locations vary widely in vehicles, so it’s important to consult your owner’s manual. Federal law requires that all cars built after Sept. 1, 2012 include a notice in the owner’s manual if a vehicle has an EDR. The manuals for cars built before that date may or may not contain a notice.

onebigfamily53

Thank you for the information pertaining to the EDR, I am really hoping that some activity was recorded pre and post...waiting to hear.

jay2o01

No matter how many forms/hold harmless/agreements you sign, I genuinely doubt MB would knowingly release any car off the lot with faulty braking chips. Could they find something after the sale that prompts an immediate recall- sure, would they let it go knowing the brakes could fail under certain circumstances, never. Gluck with your insurance claim man, I imagine thats gonna lead to an expensive af repair

MBNUT1

I am assuming the engine was running when you had the crash. Did you get any braking or none at all. As was asked previously was the pedal hard or soft? I am assuming that if it went soft you would have commented on that. I am struggling to understand how brakes fail and then work shortly thereafter. Wondering if you lost braking assist as in vacuum assist.

onebigfamily53

Yes the engine was running doing the ECO start and stop for about 45/50 minutes when the accident occurred

Did not have any brake function. The brake pedal was not soft I was pumping the brake pedal and pushing down as hard as I could to get the vehicle to stop. Nothing I did worked to stop the vehicle

Right now I am with you. It replays in my mind everyday a lot. Honestly makes no sense hence all the questions but not having an explanation makes me freaked out even more. May I ask what is vacuum assist?

superswiss

Did you have normal brake pedal travel? The vacuum assist multiplies the force that you apply to the brake pedal, so that it's less strenuous for the driver. If there's a vacuum leak, then the brake pedal would be hard to push. On the other hand if the brake pedal was soft then there would be a brake fluid leak. The brakes just not working with normal pedal travel and no soft or hard pedal is quite strange. That's essentially not possible. The force you apply to the brake pedal has to go somewhere. The brake system is a closed hydraulic system. If the pedal moves, then the pistons in the calipers move and apply the brake pads, or you have a leak and the force to the brake pedal squirts the fluid out of the system. Another option is air in the brake lines. Air as opposed to hydraulic fluid compresses, so that would absorb part or all of the force you are applying to the brake pedal, but the pedal would fill spongy in that case.

Nonformulaic

A heart wrenching story. Who could walk away from that without PTSD? Get out and never look back.

cfmistry

In my humble opinion, get out of that car at any cost. Once is enough.

MBNUT1

Yes anybody who understands the physics of the braking system will struggle to make sense of this. In essence what is being reported is that force is being applied to the brake pedal but not being converted to hydraulic brake pressure but then somehow does a little while later. Note there should be no electronics involved in this process that would make it not work then work.

chassis

Hard pedal with no caliper actuation suggests mechanical blockage between pedal and master cylinder, or a hydraulic blockage in the ABS unit. Both unlikely, although both are possible.

Hard pedal with large travel and no caliper actuation suggests massive brake fluid escape by severed or broken brake line, or other massive leak. @onebigfamily53 did you lose a large quantity of brake fluid?

Hard pedal with large travel is nearly impossible, it's logically inconsistent. A perception of hard pedal with large travel implies the user depressed a soft pedal to the floor (large travel), then characterized the floor-depressed pedal as "hard". Suggests massive hydraulic fluid leak somewhere in the system.

@onebigfamily53 have you retained an attorney for this matter?

superswiss

Right, the only way brakes could fail like that is if the W223 was using brake-by-wire, but I haven't read anything in this regard. However, brake-by-wire is very common these days in EVs, so that applying the brake pedal doesn't immediately apply the physical brakes and instead uses recuperation first, and only switches to the physical brakes if more stopping power is required. For example you'll find this setup in the EQS, Taycan etc.

onebigfamily53

The latest comments, I really do agree that anyone who knows brakes cannot make sense of this. All is I know what happened as well as the passengers in the vehicle. Really the accident haunts me everyday as I cannot make sense of it either, I keep thinking how it could have been worse if traveling high/normal rate of speed, what if we or some died or seriously injured. What if my children were in the vehicle. I am really a logical person. I know I cannot play the what if game but I cannot get past it right now. I do know that I will not put my safety, my family and/or others by driving or riding in this vehicle. A chance that it may not happen again, is something (a life) that I am not willing to gamble with.

I will also share when the vehicle made impact as I sat there not moving, the vehicle next to us changed lanes in front of us to actually get the trucks attention. The passenger (gentleman) got out to express that they in what they witnessed it appeared that the truck hit us. He was trying to get the truck to stop. We explained that is was our vehicle that caused impact and did not stop when braking. That bystander was shocked as I/we were and still are. As I stated before the vehicle turned off and back on upon impact whereas I had to shift back into the drive gear to proceed forward (why did it do this is another question I keep asking)

No I have not retained an attorney. I want the vehicle to never drive on the road again and I want out. I really do appreciate all the feedback! Thank you

MBNUT1

This is where you really need to get the data from the car's computer. It seems possible that the person in the other car saw it correctly and the truck actually rolled into you but you perceived the closing gap that you were moving toward the truck and applied the brakes. This would make sense of all that you reported regarding the brakes.

onebigfamily53

I have requested the data reports pre and post accident several times without any response from the local MB dealership as well as the case manager from MBUSA. Still waiting!

Question about your comment, would the vehicle alarm or sense the other vehicle getting close? Asking as our vehicle did not alarm or sense the other vehicle, no beeps or alarms of any kind, nothing on the center screen to reflect our vehicle was too close or would impact. The center screen actually went black as if it turned off like the vehicle did upon impact. Would the vehicle take photographs due to the impact? Thoughts???

Detailingdoc

Many years ago I was stuck in standstill traffic on the interstate behind a semi. All of a sudden i felt as if i was slowly rolling forwards towards the semi. I slammed on my brakes but no matter how hard I pushed the distance kept closing. Right before impact the semi started to move forward.

In this case it wasnt my brakes that were faulty it was just a perception issue where the truck was very slowly creeping backwards.
Just thought it was interesting given the witness account in your situation.

chassis

@onebigfamily53 A letter from a lawyer requesting the data will get more attention than your letter will receive.