js_cls

I would too, although haven't driven the new SL yet. I imagine the new SL will be more composed and handle better, while the Lexus will have more theater and old-school thrill with the V8, but I do agree it is the only Lexus that is honestly compelling.

Back in 2013 I was actually really liking the new Lexus cars, the GS especially, I even liked the original spindle grills which are much more understated compared to the modern versions. Back then too, the 3.5L V6 was more acceptable and competitive, now in the age of turbocharged cars though, its woefully outdated and inefficient.

I don't think the new NX is too bad, helped a friend purchase one, has decent materials, pretty good drive assist tech, they got rid of the touchpad finally too, but at the lower-end of the luxury spectrum its easier to compete, where as Lexus is really losing is the upper end. The LS's 3.5TT V6 is not very good for a flagship sedan, and they really compromised on styling, space, and practicality which has lost the favor of some of their loyal customers.

They really need to make new powertrains in my opinion, they are sticking too many Toyota 4-cylinders in everything, even the new RX (no 6-cylinder available at all). Toyota should've had Lexus design an Inline-6 to use in their RWD based cars so then they could've also made their own Supra (I am very against BMW building the Supra). In today's tech driven world, Lexus needs to start innovating and become more modern.

SW20S

Same here! I had a 2013 GS350, and at that time I really felt like Lexus was moving in the right direction, had two LS460s, a 2015 and a 2017 and loved them too, then it all kinda fell apart...

mercedesmax

No business case for a stand alone Supra or an I6 engine. Toyota all about making money now. People accept Lexus even with inferior powertrains.

js_cls

Sadly true, I was thinking that at least using I6’s in Lexus would help development costs, even Mazda (one of the smallest brands out there) is willing to put the money in for an I6 and RWD platform. As for people accepting Lexus, I don’t blame them, peace of mind (reliability) is the greatest luxury of them all.

SW20S

They accept Lexus on the lower end, but not the upper end.

W205C43PFL

True but I guess in Mazda's case, they don't have the luxury of a "premium brand" like Lexus, Acura, Infiniti so they upmarket most of their models under the Mazda umbrella. Which is probably the reason why their cars (at least true for Canada here) is more expensive in base model form compared to other Japanese competitors like Toyota and Honda. For a non-luxury brand, Mazda really makes nice looking and generally premium cars, the fit and finish and interior surprised me. I got to admit.

teksurv

The LC is by far the best car Lexus has made in a long time. I almost bought one, but the infotainment was just awful. The GS looks like a Camry in a tux (understand different platforms), I am looking forward to the facelift/next iteration of the G90, I agree Genesis is hungry (needs bespoke dealerships) and Lexus is on cruise control.

mercedesmax

True, we occasionally get someone cross shopping the RX350 and the GLC 300 but that is about it.

hyperion667

Not gonna lie.......Hyndai and Lexus don't interest me.......they've always been a lesser than but they do try. Back in the 90's when Lexus came out I thought they looked nice.

jsoloddss65

Streamliner, that is a nice review. Funny, I just saw a review on the G90 on YouTube. It looked like a very nice car for the $ (well in relative terms). I bet if it was made by a "luxury" brand there would be more of them on the road.

W205C43PFL

Even if we are not the target market, I appreciate them bringing competition to the automotive world so in my opinion they play a major role. Don't want MB to become a monopoly.

bishop64

The first Lexus cars (LS and SC) did not look nice to me at all back then. When compared with the then S-Class (W126) and SL (R129), the Lexus just looked too bland.

js_cls

I always found the SC to be a bit too round, its lack of body-lines and weird headlights definitely didn't help. The LS back in the day definitely wasn't as stylish as the S or 7er, but was still decent looking, but for the price it was a hell of a vehicle and had some cool innovations, such as air suspension in the early 90's. I remember when the LS came out and was a success, and if anything, you can actually blame the LS and other Japanese alternatives (Infiniti Q45) for MB's switch from engineer focused to market driven success as the S-Class was just too expensive to compete with the LS, even BMW back in the day accused Lexus of selling the LS at a loss. The second generation was an improvement in design, looking a bit more sleek and refreshed, but kept much of the look of the first one.

It wasn't until the third-generation that I think Lexus really hit it with design. In an era of the W220 which was the S-Class at its lowest, and the E65 7-Series looked like a sad bulldog, the LS 430 was elegant and timeless, my favorite LS design yet, although it definitely has some W140 cues to it.



The fourth-generation LS is also a very pretty car I would say, at least before they added the spindle grill which was clearly an afterthought on this car. A bit more feminine in its design than before, but still elegant and timeless.



The new LS is a complete 180 from its predecessors. While it has grown on me and looks very modern, I have a feeling it will not age well, and some bits look weird from some angles (like the chunky c-pillar), and are just a bit overstyled (mainly the front end). Which is a shame because the interior is quite beautiful from a design and materials standpoint, you can even get a beautiful glass trimmed door panel. I hope Lexus does continue to try and improve the LS as it is such a historic and important car for the brand, even if its sales numbers are lower and lower each year.

Germancar1

Genesis is a luxury brand. Maybe you're trying to highlight the difference between a true luxury car manufacturer (Mercedes, BMW) vs a brand (Genesis, Lexus). Sorta like a record company vs a record label.

M

crabman

Lexus and Genesis are not competitors; they're less expensive alternatives. Doesn't make them bad and they do play in the same ballpark, just not in the same league.

When you think about it the same is true of the S class compared to say, Rolls or Bentley: The S class gives you most of that goodness at significantly less money but in the same league? No. I don't have Bentley money but that's not going to keep me from admitting it's a step up the ladder. Just like I'm not going to pretend the two being discussed here are real competitors; they're not. They give you a big chunk of the goodness for less money but you're moving down market. You see this dynamic all through the market and it's not an accident; it's a carefully thought out product positioning.

SW20S

Our first LS was a 1998, and thats the year where I think they really started to look good:




By the way, that car remains the best riding, overall most refined and isolated car I have ever had. Later cars, including my S Class are close in many ways but not overall as good.

I loved the way both of my spindled LS460s looked



I love how the LS500 looks, the issue is they drive much firmer, they aren't as quiet, the powertrain is not that refined, and they are way too small inside. Just like you said, a 180 from the previous cars, the car's character is just not the same.

I can't speak for Genesis because I have never owned one, but the generations of LS before this latest generation absolutely were competitors. Having had 4 LS sedans, and having had my S Class for 2 years. If Lexus came back with a new gen LS with V8 power and the size that it should have with the refined, soft easygoing nature it should have...I would go back. Nothing against the S Class, its an incredible car and I love it, but its just not that much better for the cost difference, and there are things Lexus does better. Lexus paint is much nicer, some of the finishes are better in the Lexus, I prefer some of the control interfaces on the Lexus...the Mercedes doesn't ride better, but it handles much better and rides just as well. My LS460s were more isolated from wind noise than the S Class, although the S Class is better isolated from road noise. Mercedes powertrain is smoother than the UR engine in the 460, but not the UZ engines in the 400 and 430, very similar to them (obviously much more powerful).

jsoloddss65

Yes, you are correct. I am bias because since day one out of my residency all I have owned are Mercedes. First world problem!

SW20S

I see from your profile you've had a lot of AMG cars, those are something no Lexus or Genesis has ever been able to touch. If you're just driving an "ordinary" car though, the Mercedes is not all that much better than the comparable Lexus (well, what was the comparable Lexus since the GS is gone, they ruined the LS and the IS has been left without a full redesign for so long).

For instance I had a 2013 GS350 like I said, and I legitimately much preferred it to the 5 and E at the time. I had two ESs and chose them over a C Class or 3 Series because they were much bigger for the same money.

So my point is, I bet this G90 compares really well.

Wolfman

I give Genesis an A for effort but don't think the G90 compares well to a regular S-class. But then I never felt that the Lexus was a competitive either with the exception of the early models (LS400, maybe LS430). By the time the LS460 rolled around, it was already well behind the S-Class in terms of tech and never caught up.

crabman

When you reference Lexus and say "how it compares" what you're really saying is how close did it get for less money. When I was quoted it was said "nearly as good", which is the same as not as good. At times it's been closer, others farther, but it's never been a toe to toe competitor. Neither is Genesis; and both by design. They were built to get close enough at a lower price point to trigger buyers for that exact product.

It's not that I'm an MB aficionado; nor do I have anything against Lexus or Genesis. If you don't have or want to spend more money they deliver a lot for less. They're good enough for those that find them good enough. For a buyer that's got S class money and wants to get the best possible S class style experience... They're going to get an S class. They don't have enough for Bentley and can do better than Lexus and Genesis.

SW20S

Have you driven one? Streamliner is a pretty good judge of what compares to an S Class.

Ive got S Class money, and the image and prestige is a much bigger upgrade than the car itself intrinsically is. That image is just not that important to me.

Like I said, don’t get me wrong I love my S Class but I have to call a spade a spade. I would absolutely get another S Class but I will definitely check this out first.

crabman

Yeah, I can see it in my own garage, Mrs Crab drives Lexus more than anything else. That's why I said don't have or want to spend, a lot of people are going to call the Lexus good enough for a better price. Mrs Crab just doesn't care about a lot of the details that might concern us; to her a car is a tool used to go places. She wants to be comfortable, feel safe, not worry about breakdowns. Not hard to see Lexus being right at the top of her short list. Her concerns with Genesis come down to reliability and the dealerships. The car itself is secondary.

Wolfman

What? A Genesis or a Lexus? Lexus yes, Genesis G90 no.
Streamliner is a good judge as what compares to an S-Class and so am I. Have only driven them for 30 years+ but we have different preferences and expectations. Streamliner would put 16" wheels on the car if possible and I have no issues with 20"+ wheels. Also drive is Sport/Sport+ mode only. Different priorities for different people. Meanwhile we decided to move to more sporty rides but still love the S-Class. I wish Mercedes would have continued the coupe...

hyperion667

Streamliner must be out testing more cars as we haven't heard from him since the inception of this thread

SW20S

What Lexus does she drive? There are only a couple Lexus vehicles I am including in what I'm saying, really the only car they make today that I feel this way about is the LC500, but in the past the LS has been one I would consider very comparable, as well as the GS and IS. GS is discontinued and the IS is just a heavy refresh of the car that came out in 2014. I'm certainly not somebody who would consider a car a tool to simply get places.

But, I have no problem spending S Class money (obviously, I have one) but if Lexus came out with a comparable car, I would go back. I would never buy an ES, RX, NX, etc. Its not about the money, its about what the money gets me. Because Lexus did what they did with the LS500 I had no choice but to go to the Germans, but I never felt any need to before.

What I mean is the G90. Hard to say its not comparable when you haven't driven one. Lots of buyers out there like Stream and myself that like a soft comfortable car.