Credit due where it's due on both fronts though. The LS500 reused a lot of parts from the ES (like a lot) and there's so many things in that vehicle that were made poorly. The LS460 remains one of my most favourite cars, and it's on my list of vehicles that I miss never owning. It was also absurdly reliable (minus the odd shake in the transmission for AWD models). As an aside, on that same list was the Maybach 57 and 62. While the Maybach S class may be much more reliable as it shares many aspects of the W223, I can't wrap my head around any Maybach other than the true models. I still scour the internet trying to find a gently used 57/62 but to no avail. There are few cars on my fantasy list but yes the LS460 is one of them! (as is, strangely, the W220. Yes I know it was a rust bucket but I really liked that car).

I, like many on here, no longer saw the point of Lexus though. If a car is going to just be laissez faire reliability wise, I too would rather go German.

 

Re: Stars in grille

MB hear you all that is why they have the new "iconic grille" on the vision iconic and the first model that got it was the X540 GLC EV and now the W520 C-Class EV as well. Will be interesting what the W224 will bring us.

 

Ah that channel, I remember there was a thread on this as they used a poorly speced out W223 for the review.https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...view-w223.html

 

Ah Volkswagen, Oh Volkswagen, the same company that brought back physical buttons of which put capacitive touch in the newer model audis such as the new a5 and a6, then there is the odd and even number naming scheme to make things confusing. I understand they are different divisions and have different design departments and a different management team but most likely there aren't lesser voices of audi complaints about capacitive touch than regular Volkswagen models.

Sorry to hear that. Hope your health improves soon.

 

Thank you. It's also interesting that you say that re Audi/VW. When the then 2019 Audi A8L came out, it was a very heavily anticipated car for me. I remember seeing the dual screen MMI layout and went...meh. Despite that, I went to my local dealership and drove it. I instantly fell in love with it and became the first person in Canada (so I'm told by Audi Corporate then) to custom order & take delivery of one.

Since then I learned that I have to be in a car before I judge it. I sat in the newer Audi's and I became extremely irritated and frustrated. I've been an Audi and Mercedes guy my whole life. The new Audi's squeak. The stupid touch capacitive buttons to the stupid massive screens all annoy me. The crappy materials. It is such a far cry from the R8 V10 (2nd gen) that I once had and the A8L that I still have and will keep forever. I'm really annoyed with the lack of buttons these days AND with "tacked on" screens.

Credit due where it's due. I'm not a fan of the hyperscreen on the W223 post FL BUT it at least now looks integrated versus the pre FL model. The pre FL W223 still makes me quite upset at how the mighty did fall but is now slowly getting back on its feet.

I am guilty as the next guy anywhere on the internet of being a loyal car fanboy, but I learned nearly a decade ago to stop caring about car brands. They're all a collection of other people's parts stamped with a "brand". Vote with our feet and go towards cars that make us happy because otherwise life is too short.

That said here is what I need to articulate. The community is equally important to the experience of owning a car. The Mercedes, Audi and Range Rover community are all comprised of different people but at the price range that these cars cost - it truly is a wonderful group of people that come from interesting and fun backgrounds.

I tell you what is not so great. The total lack of any sort of community in the Rolls Royce & Bentley land (even the latter, which surprised me). The lack of community seriously takes away from the fun of owning these cars though I full well admit it's beyond a first world problem so I should definitely shut up now

 

You're welcome. Loyalty means nothing sadly these days, just like RoBellUs, they literally encourage you to switch to competitors so you get a better deal. They like new customers so new customers usually get a better deal, it might look good on the company report during a shareholder meeting...wow we have this many new customers. Vote with the wallet it is then.

I learned the hard way that loyalty means nothing (other than building a rapport with the GM I guess).

Speaking of crappy materials, MB yes they are definitely improving, for example look at the X540 GLC EV, most of the missing wood trim is back, the lower door bins are using better materials, the seat controls finally moves again. Not all sunshine and rainbows though, for example, the seat memory buttons are missing, the heated seats and ventilated seat controls are missing. Either way, excited to see what the W224 brings.

Given the high value of those cars, I guess I wouldn't be surprised there is less community engagement plus most buy it for ultra comfort and less likely to mod or install ebay parts.

Even with MB, the aftermarket community is weaker than say with bmw for example. It is the brand and its demographic, there are just more enthusiasts with bmw.

 

Oh ya forgot to mention.... Re: Rolls-Royce community less engagement due to high entry price.
Community engagement is mainly a enthusiasts' thing, enthusiasts like you might be more prone in choosing the sporty side at those price points for example, ferrarichat and Lamborghini talk and McLarenlife. The Rolls-Royce community perhaps https://www.rroc.org/ and rollsroyceforums.com

 

Oh yeah I'm aware of the communities that exist but I always get a chuckle. It's usually like "I have a Rolls Royce X from 1972 and I have this weird vibration in the seat". My response is... "ok, congratulations. That's a n of 1 and no one can help you"

The vast majority of RR owners, I guess, are probably ones where someone drives them or they're celebrities - especially vehicles <4 years old. There are very very very few car enthusiasts who own these let alone those who work on their own cars. Yes, I do my own oil changes on all of my cars as a source of pride! It's fine, but it does get lonely.

 

Very nice, enjoy them all in good health. I guess enthusiasts in general like sporty (ish?) cars, say Bentley flying spur?

Ya most RR owners are probably being chauffeured.

 

I can't think of much in an LS500 that came from the ES...

I had two LS460s, a 2015 and a 2017 LS460L, they were great cars.

 

This article first published in the Detroit Free Press quotes a study done by iseecars.com about recent recalls. The list of worst is almost all Ford and Lincoln. 9 out of 10 of the predicted best are Mercedes Benz. The manufacture with the greatest recent improvement is Tesla. Make of it what you will.
Evansville Courier and Press
Edit: scroll to page 3

 

For many years, I commuted between my business in L.A. to my home in Orange County. Between 1993 & 2011, I had eight brand new Lexus LS sedans, all “Ultra Luxury” models with air suspension. I loved those cars. The dealer experience was “off the charts” and I was treated better by Lexus than by any other brand before or since. The cars were absolutely rock solid and I felt very confident & comfortable in them as I braved the legendary Interstate 405. I did test drive a LS500 and I could not believe how they had ruined the car that they built their reputation on.

I got excited about the Genesis G90 and almost went for one. The car is a good buy price wise, but the dealer network is not there yet and there are many horror stories out there about very poor dealer service. Hyundai should have done what Toyota did with Lexus: Build the dedicated dealerships right from the start and go “ALL IN” on offering an exceptional dealer experience for Genesis customers. Instead, G90 customers are dealing with Hyundai dealerships which is not good.

This is also a gripe about MB these days. Buy a $150K S Class or a $300K Maybach and when you take it in for service, you find yourself in an OCEAN of A, B & C Class vehicles AND, if you are really lucky, the dealer may be servicing Metris & Sprinter vans, as well. This is NOT a “luxury” experience. I’ve posted this idea before and have always been shouted down, but here it is again: Mercedes-Benz dealerships should handle E Class & above vehicles, including G Wagons & authentic AMG’s. Everything below, should be handled by Daimler-Benz dealerships. This would bring the luxury experience back to Mercedes-Benz dealerships, I know it will never happen but it should.

 

My ego doesn’t require I be kept separate from people that can only afford $60-80k cars lol

 

My local dealership has a rule: S class owners ALWAYS get a loaner car (no appointment needed), and that loaner car is ALWAYS a new S class.

Customer pulls into service bay. Advisor checks you in, and then pulls up a new S class. Trades keys, and you're off. The service is so good that I have been replacing other brand cars with Mercedes just to have that dealership.

 

I actually like driving the different cars as loaners. I drive an S Class every day, driving something different for a couple days is a nice change of pace.

 

I wish dealers around here were like this.
When I had my S I was given a glb and a cla. I was so disappointed.

 

I just ask for something other than a GLA or GLB

 

That's awesome!. I know some dealers have what's known as "Executive Loaner" program. When there isn't any high-end loaner available, they'd even assign you a car from their new-car inventory. Not that common but it's there in some areas.

 

The connection with the service advisor or manager matters. Never had this issue with dealers where I know the people or have been around for sometime. My local bmw dealer as i hinted above has an executive loaner program. At the very least they assign X7s, 760s, XM, iX.. those are all cars that cost 100K plus. They are different from the typical loaners parked next to the service bay.. .X5/X3/5/3/X1 that are often not optioned that well.... When none of those executive loaners' are available, I simply states that I need something bigger and with at least drive-assist pro, and was assigned brand-new one from the sale inventory. My Mbenz dealership are also careful when I pull in with an S or GLS. I the worst car I was ever assigned was a GLE which is not bad when bringing a GLS. Back in the days when I moved to a new area, I'd bring my S and get assigned a C/CLA/GLC and the like. wasn't happy but can't complain. Need to build the relationship with the SA or S-manager. As @Streamliner hinted though, it'd be best if there is formal program for luxury car owners.

 

Audi Canada has an interesting rule that I wish Mercedes Benz would follow. The flagship sedans (not the SUVs) and the supercars (so in Audi land, that'd be the A8 and R8) are only allowed to be worked on by the shop foreman. There's no exceptions to this rule. I'm starting to recognize a few names from the Audi World side and the MB World members on here would probably laugh hard but I always tip my mechanic. He's the only one (shop foreman) who works on my A8. I drive it directly into his bay, I get out, I tip him, he does the work then and there, and I'm out. He also goes way above and beyond with, perhaps, borderline "warranty claims" to keep my car in top shape. There's a lot to be said with a solid relationship with a dealership AND the mechanic who works on the cars. At this point, I bring all of the non warranty work directly to him (minus the Rolls Royce) for my vehicles.

Re: Genesis. Genesis' poor dealer network is going to be a regional thing. Here in my neck of the woods, I was shocked to learn of a dedicated Genesis dealership 90 miles away from my home and I live 30 minutes from a gas station (that's how remote I am). The last generation G90 was very much akin to the LS460. The latest generation G90 reminds me a lot (ride, comfort, quiet, build quality) of the W222. If you haven't driven the new Genesis G90, I highly suggest it - but as rightfully brought up already...check where your local dealer is first.

Re: Lexus LS500. 7 years ago before taking delivery of the Audi A8L, I took the BMW 7 series, the W222, the A8L, the LS460, the LS500 on the same highway at the same day on the same road at a ridiculous speed (with HVAC off). My spouse had a ANSI A calibrated sound meter. At the time, the A8L was 1dB quieter than the W222 (which probably is a wash now with the W223), and interestingly enough tied with the LS460. The LS500 was a full 2DB louder, on par with the Genesis G90...

Lexus took a serious step back and that stupid TT V6 that likes to randomly explode but prior to doing that the fake engine noise is obnoxious. I am so disappointed with Lexus. At least they will kill off the LS500 soon. (next year, I believe).

I don't do loaner vehicles. I have abandonment issues. The car stays in my sight until it's done being worked on. That also means a 6 hour service can take 2 hours when a master mechanic knows what he's doing. To me, time is my limiting factor so I like getting in and out, but that requires a serious amount of tipping. I will buy my way to top tier service every day of the week. It makes a big difference.

Dealerships waste a stupid amount of time because in their mind a customer paying $1200 for service wouldn't be too happy if it's in the shop for 2 hours. There's so much time padding it's ridiculous.

 

This one deserves it's own post so apologies for this format.

Mercedes Benz, to me, will always be the company that stood for "the best or nothing". The legendary W140 was peak Mercedes for me. It meant a very big deal to own a Mercedes, and I don't even mean just the SonderKlasse. It was a big deal to own an E class or a C class, etc. I still remember my W204 and how ridiculous amazing it felt. Sure, I was in a different tax bracket then but I loved the thing. I felt proud to own a Mercedes. It felt like a Mercedes. My parents had used S classes growing up (they shouldn't have as they were broke) and I remember detailing them by hand every weekend.

Somewhere along the way Mercedes Benz traded in their cachet for profit. You see this now with all of the stupid forking stars all over the headlights and grills etc. It's vile to me and is akin to (someone said this upthread) to wearing a Gucci shirt with a Prada hat or whatever. People are now in CLAs, GLAs, etc, all at the $50K or $60K CAD bracket going LOOK AT ME, I OWN A MERCEDES while they're all sh*t boxes. Dealers are seeing hundreds of cars a day coming in and out. This wasn't the case back in the W140 days and before. Every single core model has been 'death by a thousand cuts'. I could go into all of the cost cutting I saw on the W223 which made me so mad I left the brand back in 2019 and went to Audi (sadly Audi did the same for the last 5 years).

It's just pure en****ification. The dealer experience at Mercedes Benz will never come back. Same with Lexus. Same with Audi. It's something I realized a few years ago when I got so sick and tired of the commodiation of cars and brands that I truly loved as a child. I still refer to the S class as the Sonder-Klasse out of pure respect for the car as a halo object growing up, and it's STILL why I'm looking at the W223 post FL because of what the car used to stand for (rather than what it is now, sadly).

Well, the issue I can't fix that, and this entire rant is what pushed me to Rolls Royce. A "dealer" network that calls you Mr. X and remembers everything about your car and your tastes? That's Rolls Royce *today*. Bentley lost this which is why I skipped them but then the issue is attainability is low. These cars are ridiculously expensive but it keeps people out.

What may surprise most of you is that the margin that Rolls Royce makes as a company is a lot lower than you may think. I remember looking (briefly) into this and their margins are only 21% operating margin and ~7% EBITDA.

I wonder if that surprises most people? The cost of their cars, the labour, the dealer network, etc is infinitely higher than most people think because a lot of people (I thought this too) assumed their margins were like 200%. 21% operating margin is fair to me and I would guess the S or A8L or whatever is the same. The difference is German 3 are all happy to increase volume and compete against each other for market share.

This is why Mercedes (the great) has fallen. This is why Audi's are all crap now. JLR is still niche which is why many are flocking to Range Rover but what I find interesting about JLR is that their YoY price increases are *massive*. They are going down the path of Rolls Royce and I really like that. It keeps people out while the cars are still attainable for most people who buy A8s, S classes, LS's, etc.

The only downside to Rolls Royce that I can think of is one that is seriously annoying me. Like I said above, I have abandonment issues. I've lost count of the number of times I go back to the parking lot after golf or whatever and I find people ogling my car. Leave me the F alone (sorry, I'm living up to my name now ). Yes, FWP.

 

Yeah I don't know what Lexus did with noise and the LS500. My LS460s were very quiet, as was my LS400 and LS430..but the 500 is surprisingly loud. Very odd. I even tried to drive one again in between my 222 and 223 and they had improved it a lot but it still felt like a big step back. I think its a good looking car. Even my longtime Lexus salesman was shocked I would even consider going from the W222 to an LS500 lol

I am considering a TX500h or TX550h+ to replace our Pacifica and its a nice vehicle for what it is, unfortunately that describes every Lexus now.

RE Dealers, my MB dealer experience has been great. Totally on par with my Lexus experience. Really depends on the dealers.

 

I think the dealer/MB view this as good advertising for the new models. i.e. I had a W221 S63, and when in for service they would give me a W223 S580 with all the options. It's a good promotion, because I have been wanting a W223 ever since driving one. A 2028 or 2029 S63 is very likely in my future.

 

Re: Post #395 and Post#396

Re: Genesis dealership network in Canada
Yup people don't want to service these cars inside Hyundai dealerships, that said they do deliver to your door service (for both purchasing and servicing, thestraightpipes folks have a video on that)

Re: Mercedes
They are going back upmarket as seen in the new GLC, C,CLA EVs, the CLAs now are like C-Class pricing from the past but the materials are definitely improving, they won't really get rid of the CLA models though because it is still a big seller even if they are going back up market.
Sadly, the only thing about MB is this Ola CEO which seems to be staying in charged for longer and I have seen how he ruined MB over the years, story for another time.

I understand your thoughts on how just because you can afford something like that doesn't mean you like the attention it brings, which is why forum members here had been complaining about the lack of understated luxury. in MBs and In your case, the Rolls-Royce you just want a very nice car and I mean a very nice car but you just want to live your life without being bother but the Rolls-Royce really is on the flashy side.

 

This thread has gone all over the place and I love the natural evolution of topics. It is timely that today I was thinking about vehicle presence. To me, the W222 screamed "boss". The W223 is extremely subtle to me (pre FL). Until I see a post FL in real life I won't comment. It doesn't help that Mercedes makes everything look the same shape and that has its pros and cons and I am NOT stating this as a negative thing.

Let me explain. One of the coolest things of owning an Audi A8L is most people don't know what it is. I jokingly call it an Audi A4x2. However, the odd person who knows cars will know, and the subtle attention that it gets is nice. A Range Rover is fairly loud and shouty, and the Rolls Royce is just obnoxiously loud. I don't mind attention, but I don't like too much of it. I just want a nice car that's well built and I like keeping to myself.

This is where the W223 is a bit ??? to me. When I see an S class, I don't think much of it. I know what it is. I know the type of person it attracts, but there's just so many of them that I don't think it gets a stupid amount of attention (unlike a W140, W222, from back in the day).

Are you guys saying your S classes draw a lot of attention? I ask because I genuinely am trying to find something in between an A8 and a Range Rover, and I absolutely do not want the attention of a Phantom ever again.