Wolfman,

As always, thanks for your well balanced thoughts!

I may differ with you on the seriousness of MB and the auto industries issues but the bottom line is I have always and continue to love my Mercedes cars including the S Class which I have spent multiple millions of dollars on over 35 years. I also spend significant dollars with MB annually since 2006 with the AMG Experience program (previously AMG Challenge & AMG Driving Academy) as I have much track and racing experience and enjoy conversations over the years with other MB enthusiasts of which many of the issues I have brought up in previous posts are shared with many of my friends at the AMG Experience programs. Years ago when I was young I fell in love with MBs mechanical engineering (their electrical issues and software issues from time to time have lots to be desired). Maybe I have become somewhat disenchanted recently with my '25 S63 E Performance experience. I do plan on a '27 S63 as my dealer and MB regional rep are going to help get that allocation as soon as it is available. In the meantime I have a number of autos in my fleet I can drive including the "temporary" replacement for the '25 S63 which is a '26 CLE 53--what a car now just add the new flat plane crank V8 to that baby and a super star is born!

As a MB loyalist that has done Euro Delivery, I sure wished MBUSA would bring that program back. If MB brought that experience back, even when one has a terrible car experience like I did, it takes alot for a MB loyalist like myself to not buy another car. That program builds a deep deep understanding of the MB/German legacy of which I know you have as if I recall you arrived to the US from Deutchland!

Hope you you get outside today as I understand Mpls/St Paul's weather will be in the 70's today per my wife as she is there visiting her aging parents.

Again, thanks for the well balance thoughts!

 

I hope you’re right about the first part, at least as far as the S-Class goes. Pretty sure nobody knows that for certain though. I follow the numbers, personally. In the end, I hope and I pray that things will get better; I am already anxiously waiting for the S EV and look forward to it, in the future, to see the "star" again from my driver's seat. It was great when I was able to enjoy that.

Good point on separate EV and ICE platforms. For some reason I remember you saying before that keeping them separate is best, and I disagreed, unless I’m confusing you with someone else. To me, one platform that can support both is the better "compromise" solution. There are simply too many benefits with that approach despite the cons. I also only learned around two weeks ago that Neue Klasse, while it is clearly EV-first, is also designed to support ICE an PHEV in some models. That is a very smart strategy.

As for the “wishful thinking” part, no, not at all. I’m not sure why that label is even needed here. You have your opinions, which is fine, but at times you seem more interested in debating other people’s opinions than the object or actual cars themselves. I’ve said many times I’m not that interested in debating my opinions, or others, as if either need approval/confirmation. On the tech side, what I consider tech may not fully match what you consider tech, and maybe that is part of the issue?. I own one car and lived/rented the other for a duration in the months-range, not days. I know and experienced both VERY well. However for sure I have not driven the facelift yet, but on paper I’m still not seeing anything meaningfully new. Whether you want to call these things “tech,” “features,” or “options” does not really change the discussion or what I was trying to discuss. These are still the details that shape the daily ownership experience, and for many buyers they matter a lot. I know people who hated their car over something as simple as door handles or one missing feature (or tech, whatever the label is).

On the driving-assist side, I would bet all my money that mbenz new system, just like in the past decade, still will not be as good as BMW’s. I’m more informed on BMW’s new driving system, and you seem more informed on Mbenz system more than me, so disagreement here is not surprising. For newer gens, BMW seems far more focused on building a driver-centered system rather than chasing and earning regulatory labels of Level 2, 2+, or 3 just for labeling. And that is exactly what many actual drivers want. They are the only company right now developing what feels like a truly seamless engage/disengage AI-assisted driving experience, and I was extremely impressed by it. Tesla has full point-to-point FSD, yes, but many owners find it boring and it is not the major selling point people thought it would be. I had a Tesla with FSD when FSD finally became great and flawless 98% of the time on the road. I know how it feels to live with a car that can act like a "Taxi". BMW’s newer approach seems to get much closer to the sweet spot: giving you a lot or all of assistance while still letting the driver AND stay as involved as he wants. It is hard to describe in words, but once you see it in action, especially in the iX3, you will understand what I mean. For the styling and cosmetics, aaah... that is honestly the most boring and least useful part of this discussion. Opinions are opinions. They should be respected, so I respect your view and won't debate it (why would I anyway?). I think I heard that part 5 times in couple weeks now about how much you like one and see the other being ugly. . I happen to feel the same way about the facelift interior: I struggle to see how it could get worse. But again, that is just my opinion, just like yours is yours. You and I each represent one person on the planet. Manufacturers do not care which one of us “wins” the argument. They care how many buyers like it enough to sign and buy it; represented on their sales sheet and numbers.

Last part, am not sure why you brought up the "still-nonexistent" AMG GT 4-door and BMW EVs here to this discussion in particular. The new AMG GT 4-door you are referring to is not even part of the S-Class lineup as far as I know; and the S doesn't even have an EV variant. Anyway my guess is it will end up priced in near-concept-car territory with specs like that. I do not know enough about it, so I’ll take your word for it there and I believe you.

 

Volume of sales is not necessarily what a carmaker is looking for. Like we’ve mentioned before Mercedes could increase incentives to be similar to what BMW offers on the 7 to increase volume but they have chosen not to do that. They could have more volume if they want they just clearly aren’t focused on that.

 

Am not a BMW hater (as we have 2 right now, one in Germany) am also in the lucky position to have good contacts with either brand. I am sharing my opinion of BMW tech as it compares to Mercedes as I see the constant thread of overly critical comments related to the S-Class along with repeated flawed BMW sales data to support those points.
This W223 forum is for members and owners to discuss their cars, good and bad, and my interest is to bring the strength of the cars current and future tech into the foreground.

As for my EV comments, they are related to MB's engineering capabilities. Thought that was clear...

 

I take exception to that comment!

 

Ironically, my wife and I were literally looking at the E53 PHEV Wagon just today, debating whether her next car should be a Wagon instead of an SUV. I'd love to experience a road trip with a Wagon. To my knowledge you can't get them with E-ABC, at least not the E53 PHEV Wagon we tried to spec today. Getting out of a 3-row SUV is a tough choice though, even when the 3rd row isn't always needed.

 

Our E450 Wagon is a delight and perfect for my wife. That said, spoiled as I am for big, luxurious sedans, I would not want to take our wagon on any sort of extended drive, as I would truly miss the comfort of the big car. Other than the optional AirMatic—which our wagon has—there was never an ABC, MBC or E-ABC option for the wagon. Now, with the change to the “All Terrain” model and the elimination of the classic “Luxury Trim,” we will no longer be a customer for a new one. So, we are eyeing the upcoming Cayenne EV as a possible replacement—when the time comes.

 

We passed an E53 wagon today, I think they’re awesome.

 

I believe Mercedes-Benz is currently in a transition phase, trying to figure out exactly what went wrong with SO many new models since 2021. I hope they figure it out and make the choice to take the road that leads them back to earning a reputation for engineering excellence and truly luxurious vehicles. I look forward to seeing a true S Class EV. I also hope that this trend of plastering logos everywhere will soon be a thing of the past, at least in the U.S.A. I wish them all the best.

 

+1 … and I hope so too.
That’s the only other reason am still around, besides owning the GLS now.

 

One thing I have noticed as a first-time MB owner, is that all the criticism and complaints of the newer generation MB comes from those who do not own the current generation, or those who have had bad experiences/buybacks with the latest model.
And rightfully so.
I admit that I haven’t owned an older MB model to compare my ownership experience to, and that my satisfaction with the W223 comes with limited experience.
Those who see the fall of MB and the deteriorating quality seems to be those who’ve owned the brand since I was a kid.
Like many of the enthusiasts of the brands nowadays, each brand don’t seem to care about their fans as they used to.
And dare I say, their target consumer might not be y’all who’re used to their quality and rather the new money/MZ generation who fancy brand logo-plastered show off designs.
With all this being said, respectfully, I don’t think the newer MB models are meant for y’all complaining.
I’m in my mid-40s, with no prior experience on how the earlier models were built, yet still satisfied with the W223 enough to consider future MB releases.
And maybe MB is shifting their marketing strategy knowingly.

I just wanted to share my thoughts and opinions that the arguments in this thread may mean nothing to them and their products planning.
Contrary to some of your beliefs, MB is doing just fine and still remains a strong competitor of the company that I work for - enough for me to consider moving to

 

Streamliner,

Completely agreed! This is the sentiment of many many long time Mercedes Benz enthusiasts. Now for you, if they could offer MBs without the Pano Roofs

 

Great perspective!

You may be on to something. What is interesting is that for many of my 35 years of owning MBs (I am in my 60s) the quality and engineering have been top notch! (ok maybe my 2000 S Class was a rust bucket after a couple of years and my 2000 ML320's engine failed at 25000 miles but for the most part quality has been second to none) The reputation was earned but they have faltered. For those that have not spent multi millions with MB over the years may not recognize the difference. Hopefully MB can find it's way back to thar 140 years of GERMAN engineering and quality.

 

It’s funny you should bring that up. Yes, I still hate the glass roofs and still feel they should be optional. They completely change the appearance of lighter colored cars and I would much prefer a mostly steel roof over my head instead of glass. The one on my BMW is particularly ridiculous, insomuch as it doesn’t even open! It serves virtually no purpose that I can see, other than acting like a greenhouse in areas where it gets extremely hot. On the BMW forums, guys talk about stuffing insulation on the underside of the glass and then closing the cover.

I was just fooling around on the Bentley configurator for the Flying Spur and found that they have finally seen the light, making the glass roof optional. It’s too bad that there doesn’t appear to be a full electric Flying Spur on the horizon.

 

You make some very good points. As one who is expecting my first GREAT grandchild, I KNOW that companies are not catering to me. I completely and sometimes painfully understand that and am living with it the best I can. Hopefully, you & everyone younger, will get to experience it someday. But even if one is willing to accept modern designs and marketing ideas, at the end of the day, the item in question needs to actually WORK! And, if the customer has shelled out big money, for what is supposed to be the BEST (or nothing), then the item needs to be the best at delivering as advertised. If it doesn’t, that’s a problem and customers will go elsewhere. MB should notice those flashing lights in their rearview mirror and realize that the competition is getting better every day.

Modern cars, especially loaded up luxury cars are pretty much never perfect and most everyone is willing to put up with various issues which can be remedied with a trip or two to the dealer. But when horror stories become way too common, like mine, like MTrauman’s, like the fellow who’s car is pictured here, it’s no longer an inconvenience, but something much, much worse and THAT is what we are complaining about. WAY too many horror stories these days at the sign of the 3-Pointed Star and that really is a problem, and it truly pains me to say it. It really bothers me that I have no interest in visiting a Mercedes-Benz showroom these days and I hope that changes soon.

 

You two guys are so right on the money....just wanted to say I enjoy reading your posts VERY much!

 

Agree on all points. Happy to see the people who said I was a moron fanboy for saying all that now agree with those things since you have said them lol

 

More people who don’t own the car trolling. Super lol. Because people with $700k Phantoms care about S Class threads lol. I know I like to poke the Accord owners every once in a while for a good laugh.

As for the A8, I find it hard to believe that they’re going to stop selling them in Germany and continue to sell them here. I think this is the end of the A8

 

Allegedly the Audi A8 will return in a couple of years. I wonder if the market will have evaporated by then.

https://www.motor1.com/news/790277/a...r-late-decade/

 

Great, balanced thoughts, and put respectfully. I wish more people could touch on demographics in the same respectful way as you without taking direct disrespectful shots at the age of their colleagues.

I’m not among the most senior owners here, nor among those with 30+ Mercedes cars as many other respected members such as MTrauman, Streamliner, or Wolfman, but I am almost..almost their with dozens, and I do have far more years and first-hand experience with the brand than many of the newer voices or self-appointed voices on this ship. To be clear, that does not give me more rights than junior owners or even fewer rights than senior ones, but it does validate that I belong in any discussion I deem relevant to me. I’ve been with the brand for 20-30 years, owned nearly every S-Class generation since the late 1990s except two (221 and 223), and for most generations I owned both pre- and post-facelift examples. Add to that multiple GLs, a GLS, and a couple E- as well as C-Class cars. Overall, I’ve put Millions into Mbenz much of that in the S-Class alone. then you find very small % of voices due to not finding a feed for their narcissism trying to shut u down. I tell them good luck . Of course, no forum requires that kind of background to participate, nor should it. But personally, it gives me peace of mind that I am well within my lane to express what I feel about the brand, especially as I wait for the next S-Class that truly matches what I know this brand can be. With double-digit Mercedes ownership, several S-Classes, decades with the brand, and millions spent with the brand, I’ve earned the right to notice when something feels off. If I had became a mbenz owner only a couple of years ago with one or two cars, I certainly would not be declaring that I understand its long-term heritage or how quality, refinement, and customer satisfaction have or have not changed over the decades unless I had actually lived it. I have no issue saying “I don’t know” when I don’t know.

My point is, I understand this may bother some newer owners, and for those who show respect to others around like you, who are not consistently engaged in negative personal fights like kids in every single thread, I always show them respect, but for those who do the opposite, so be it and I’ll let them get bothered to keep nagging. I cannot fix that. Like many others, I’ve earned my seat to watch, evaluate, criticize, or praise a brand I still love and may return to. Skipping a generation is my personal choice, and yes, it bothers me too. That said again, I genuinely respect how balanced your perspective is, and I’m pretty sure by now you can also see it from our side.
Well said. The brand does not have a bad reputation today, but the quality, customer satisfaction data, and the broader mix of revenue, sales, and margins simply do not look as healthy as I personally have lived it. It used to be at the top, and it’s not right now even when many other brands are showing a decline in quality. We are all hoping for a stronger future, and I still believe that can happen. Usually, I’d say it is healthy when one metric is down but another is up. Here, I’m not sure there is enough younger-buyer adoption to offset the reduced pull among long-time buyers for example. The issue is that many metrics like revenue/margins are down or weaker while sales are also down at the same time, combined with quality and customer satisfaction ratings being lower than usual (I don’t recall ever seeing mbenz consistently at the bottom of satisfaction and quality related surveys). I had low expectations when I got my GLS, and I can barely accept bending under the seats to chase creaks and rattles, but I would never accept that in an S-Class. Those are exactly the kinds of things I hope get addressed very soon and am pretty sure Mbenz will do.
I recently addressed this by installing color-matched vinyl on the outside of the glass roof. I thought I texted you about it, maybe it was someone else. It matches my Sapphire exterior, improved the LED strip effect from inside, reflects solar load well, and did great job by dropping the glass inside/surface temperature. Cosmetically, it blends so well I cannot tell it is there, though mine is dark so it is easier to hide. Still, I would much prefer no pano roof at all.

II often wonder if emission regulations and the strict fuel efficiency requirements have made internal combustion engines excessively complex, exceeding the reasonable limits that would have allowed for a reasonable reliability target. I’m not aware of many engines today that are known for their exceptional reliability as in the past, aside from the Mbenz inline-6 and BMW’s inline-6. Even then as in my GLS, interior cabin quality remains an issue though and is not drivetrain related unless am paying for the complex drivetrain by reducing quality/materials within the cabin. Many but not all PHEVs have serious issues, and many manufacturers are discontinuing them regardless. The larger V8 engines subjected to extreme fuel efficiency demands often have problems and appear to be the primary reason for buybacks among most brands, including Cadillac (huge issues with the Escalade that led to a massive engine replacement recall for thousands of SUVs), BMW, and Mbenz V8s too are starting to develop common well predicted issues too.

 

All of the experience with the brand is great…but if you don’t own and drive the vehicle in question every day you’re not in a position to legitimately argue with people who do have the car. The question also is…why would you want to? Just go enjoy forums for cars you actually have

I will also add that you are every bit as defensive on the 7 Series forums.

 

Emissions & noise regulations and of course fuel consumption has created more complex engine designs with hybridization. Manufacturers in Europe are fined if not meeting CO2 emission standards because too many customers prefer SUV's and larger engines rather than EV's. For 2020, they had to pay over $500 million in fines alone.
The new EURO 7 standard requires not only to meet certain engine emissions (also tailpipe NOx, particulates) but also has to meet them for at least 10 years of use or 200k kilometers. Also added are non-exhaust emissions from tires and brakes.

Luckily we get to keep the V8. The new M177 EVO engine is fully EURO7 compliant and includes a power bump.

 

Have you heard whether or not the S63 is going to drop the PHEV because of the euro compliance?

 

I believe the best course of action is to design a V8 engine specifically for the US market based on the more flexible US emissions and noise regulation and not offer them in europe, and then design smaller drivetrains for the European market and offer the same in the US. I don’t see how the high-performance V8 drivetrains can survive to provide the reliability, performance, and noise levels that customers expect while simultaneously meeting the stringent European regulations.

Another challenge manufacturers face is the highly political nature of the US industry. Within a few years, administrations can change and shift their strategies, potentially leading to either more flexible or stricter regulations, so that makes it challenging to ever trust the stability of the US market demands and regulations around it, or to custom design anything for it.

 

Makes no business sense to design an engine just for the US