S65 AMG Engine Rebuild at 20,000 miles!
07-21-2009, 07:23 PM
#26
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GL550, C55, 335i Coupe, vintage Mustang
Big12, I sympathize with you and your situation. One thing to keep in mind is that MBUSA, MBCanada, and "Das Motherland" are all related, but entirely different corporations with many different policies and procedures in place. The fact that it is a global marque doesn't change the that. That is why I was specifying MBUSA's stance. It sounds to me like Canada has different ways of doing things, and I would imagine that is why letters to MB in Germany have been unanswered. I guess you can look at it like this,however morbid it is. When you get your car back, it will either burn oil, leak, blow up or run great. If any of the first 3 happen, you are still in warranty and are not paying out of pocket for the repairs. If it blows up, they don't have much choice but to get a new engine. If MBCanada has a reconditioning shop, then they probably build a lot of engines for Canada is pretty large. Best of luck to you.
Nick
Nick
07-21-2009, 09:23 PM
#27
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Mercedes-Benz S65
Rebuild V12 warranty expiry
Big12, I sympathize with you and your situation. One thing to keep in mind is that MBUSA, MBCanada, and "Das Motherland" are all related, but entirely different corporations with many different policies and procedures in place. The fact that it is a global marque doesn't change the that. That is why I was specifying MBUSA's stance. It sounds to me like Canada has different ways of doing things, and I would imagine that is why letters to MB in Germany have been unanswered. I guess you can look at it like this,however morbid it is. When you get your car back, it will either burn oil, leak, blow up or run great. If any of the first 3 happen, you are still in warranty and are not paying out of pocket for the repairs. If it blows up, they don't have much choice but to get a new engine. If MBCanada has a reconditioning shop, then they probably build a lot of engines for Canada is pretty large. Best of luck to you.
Nick
Nick
07-22-2009, 09:41 AM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thanks, your wisdom is appreciated. Only problem is warranty expires in November 09, and I fear 'Blow Up' could well happen as a ~ $70,000 Christmas Present. With the attitude displayed by M/B Canada, they may well refuse to cover any further repairs. They have already made it very clear by written reply that the warranty IS NOT extended past Vehicle warranty date. Nice Guys.
Tom
08-10-2018, 10:57 AM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm also interested. Once all the ish is stripped away the bent-12 looks as any other engine.
FWIW... I'd lay a $20.00 bill on the table in a bet that says.... They end up burning oil due to aged first owners not breaking them in hard enough in the first few hundred miles. Rings don't get properly seated.
08-11-2018, 10:44 AM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Hard to say isn't it. Bent 12 uses coated aluminum liners. Don't know what the rest of the lineup uses. Bent 12 moves the car along well enough without big throttle openings. Can't say the same of a four cylinder powered car. The majority of ring seating is said to happen in the first few minutes the engine runs from new.
The (damaged) bent 12 from my car burned a quart every 1500 miles when I purchased it with 58,000 miles on it. Burned a quart every 3000 miles at 70,000. Counter-intuitive. Also my sample size of one says.... Meh. We'll see how the replacement lump does. Cooler temperatures today. Let's see how far I can get.
The (damaged) bent 12 from my car burned a quart every 1500 miles when I purchased it with 58,000 miles on it. Burned a quart every 3000 miles at 70,000. Counter-intuitive. Also my sample size of one says.... Meh. We'll see how the replacement lump does. Cooler temperatures today. Let's see how far I can get.
08-11-2018, 04:09 PM
#33
Super Member
My 2006 S65 used a quart of oil every 1k miles, same consumption rate from new until I sold it at 80k miles. I had it Eurocharged tuned, no affect on oil consumption. My 2015 S65 uses a quart about every 3-4k miles. The 2 non AMG V12 Biturbos I had (SL600's) use no oil between oil changes, so less than a quart in 6k miles, the 2005 was Eurocharged tuned, the 2009 is stock. Our 2011 E63 6.2L V8 used a quart of oil every 1500 miles. Our 2014 E63S 5.5L Biturbo used a quart about every 3k miles. The 2018 E63S has so far not required any oil so it is at least 4K miles to the quart. My new SL65 has not used any oil but the car still has only 1,100 miles on it.
The above is just for general information. All the cars above had the same 2 drivers (me and my wife), same location and same driving conditions so the only variable should be the engine design and assembly.
The above is just for general information. All the cars above had the same 2 drivers (me and my wife), same location and same driving conditions so the only variable should be the engine design and assembly.
09-02-2018, 07:33 PM
#34
Newbie
My three AMG V12's, one requiring rebuild at very early stage with little acceptance from MB, has taught me a lot about the MB AMG V12. It has also taught me something about MB, and that is in my opinion they simply lack the professionalism of BMW when it comes to warranty. To rebuild a 12k motor burning more than a QT every 1000 miles is excessive, and likely causes the frequent engine light due to misfires, possibly oil fouled plugs. BMW simply replaces questionable 'M' motors with new crate motors from Germany, MB argues, then eventually aquiesces, and rebuilds at the local shop.
Not sure when MB sorted out their oil burning AMG V12's , or if the non-AMG's were also a problem, but I know the early AMG V12's were a common problem with likely hundreds rebuilt. I believe in particular Cyl. #2, and the Turbo Bearings were a problem. MB and the Forums have done well to hide this info, but it would br good to hear from more Owners and Mechanics about their experiences.
Was this a manufacturing defect in one or two cylinders, or a ring problem? My 2006 engine had a scored cylinder in #2, and burned about a quart every 700-800 Miles. Not sure how you re-bore or fix a Nickasil cylinder, but they did it somehow, perhaps swapped out my block.
Anyways, great monster engine, and I love them. How about Maybachs?
Not sure when MB sorted out their oil burning AMG V12's , or if the non-AMG's were also a problem, but I know the early AMG V12's were a common problem with likely hundreds rebuilt. I believe in particular Cyl. #2, and the Turbo Bearings were a problem. MB and the Forums have done well to hide this info, but it would br good to hear from more Owners and Mechanics about their experiences.
Was this a manufacturing defect in one or two cylinders, or a ring problem? My 2006 engine had a scored cylinder in #2, and burned about a quart every 700-800 Miles. Not sure how you re-bore or fix a Nickasil cylinder, but they did it somehow, perhaps swapped out my block.
Anyways, great monster engine, and I love them. How about Maybachs?
09-03-2018, 02:05 PM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Len I read a lot of 'likely' + opinion in your post.
Fact: Every manufacturer deals with the warranty disaster that is a problem engine differently. Every manufacturer will insist on knowing that there IS a problem to solve VS "Um... I wanna new engine before the warranty is up."
BMW installs a 'new' engine? BMW has no faith in dealer techs such that this is how they solve that issue? Hmmmm.... As a tech I'd sure prefer a longblock in a box. Getting in one is time consuming and fraught with minefields.
VAG products get repaired by the VAG tech in the stall the engine gets pulled from. They also burn oil. Procedure for getting one done is difficult for the client with having to monitor oil, mileage ect over time before VW/Audi would agree to an engine overhaul that included pistons just a dab bigger then original. Made quite a mess of a stall while being done. Seeing a dealer tech kill himself doing that job over and over helps one to appreciate really good techs.
You mention 'Hundreds' of bent-12 engines 'likely' getting rebuilt. Um.... How many 275 powered cars produced? I saw exactly zero apart at MB in my time there. My sample size is small.
Maybach 57 got the 5.5 liter. 57S got the six liter. Same engine. Different exhaust downstream of turbos. Issues seen in our 275 will be there too. Love how the six liter moves that 6000lb laviathan.
Fact: Every manufacturer deals with the warranty disaster that is a problem engine differently. Every manufacturer will insist on knowing that there IS a problem to solve VS "Um... I wanna new engine before the warranty is up."
BMW installs a 'new' engine? BMW has no faith in dealer techs such that this is how they solve that issue? Hmmmm.... As a tech I'd sure prefer a longblock in a box. Getting in one is time consuming and fraught with minefields.
VAG products get repaired by the VAG tech in the stall the engine gets pulled from. They also burn oil. Procedure for getting one done is difficult for the client with having to monitor oil, mileage ect over time before VW/Audi would agree to an engine overhaul that included pistons just a dab bigger then original. Made quite a mess of a stall while being done. Seeing a dealer tech kill himself doing that job over and over helps one to appreciate really good techs.
You mention 'Hundreds' of bent-12 engines 'likely' getting rebuilt. Um.... How many 275 powered cars produced? I saw exactly zero apart at MB in my time there. My sample size is small.
Maybach 57 got the 5.5 liter. 57S got the six liter. Same engine. Different exhaust downstream of turbos. Issues seen in our 275 will be there too. Love how the six liter moves that 6000lb laviathan.
09-05-2018, 10:26 PM
#36
Newbie
Mercedes warranty handling vs. BMW
John: I appreciate your integrity and support of your employer's response to warranty but let me be factual and give you my personal experiences in short order. Mercedes was made aware at 12k there was likely a motor problem. It took 12 more visits, (6000 miles), six check engine lights, and their own monitoring of the oil to finally examine the engine by plug removal, ironically at my instance now only months from warranty expiry. It was only at this point with evidence of cylinder scoring and low compression that they begrudgingly agreed to "rebuild" the engine. The process took two months, and prior letters to Germany complaining of rebuilding a virtually new engine were replied with a basic suggestion "policy would be followed" Once installed, now out of warranty, MB offered no warranty whatsoever. MB refused to supply details on what exactly was done, what was replaced, and what parts were new, as the vehicle was now out of warranty.
In comparison my personal 2002 BMW MZ3 Roadster developed an engine knock one year past warranty expiry (but low mileage.) After the Dealer looked at the top end the first day, they said they wanted to drop the pan, as they suspected main bearings. I said go ahead. Now four days into the shop, the Service Manager confirmed his earlier calls that it was bearings, a problem on the earlier M3 Cars, but not seen to his knowledge on the MZ3. Either way, he had spoken to head office on my behalf and they had agreed to replace the motor with a full new crate engine fully assembled from Germany. They asked that I pay for the re and re, I did not argue. I was there to see the engine from M works get uncreated. Full new 3 year warranty was additionally supplied on the new motor.
In regards to the number of 2006 65AMG V12'S rebuilt I am personally aware of three, and I have see indication of the words "engine removed" "check for oil consumption" "engine replaced" or similar indication on at least 10 different S65, SL65, Carfax reports. I am sure the numbers are available to you, why not check the official record rather than question my integrity?
I believe your input could be of great service to fellow members if we could narrow down the risk factor in buying a used 65AMG. Perhaps it was resolved in 2008 or 2009, either way it is highly likely the info is internally available. The oil burning issue alone seems particularly as reported by many owners, do you really believe this is normal in a hand assembled German engine?
Thanks for your professional opinion.
In comparison my personal 2002 BMW MZ3 Roadster developed an engine knock one year past warranty expiry (but low mileage.) After the Dealer looked at the top end the first day, they said they wanted to drop the pan, as they suspected main bearings. I said go ahead. Now four days into the shop, the Service Manager confirmed his earlier calls that it was bearings, a problem on the earlier M3 Cars, but not seen to his knowledge on the MZ3. Either way, he had spoken to head office on my behalf and they had agreed to replace the motor with a full new crate engine fully assembled from Germany. They asked that I pay for the re and re, I did not argue. I was there to see the engine from M works get uncreated. Full new 3 year warranty was additionally supplied on the new motor.
In regards to the number of 2006 65AMG V12'S rebuilt I am personally aware of three, and I have see indication of the words "engine removed" "check for oil consumption" "engine replaced" or similar indication on at least 10 different S65, SL65, Carfax reports. I am sure the numbers are available to you, why not check the official record rather than question my integrity?
I believe your input could be of great service to fellow members if we could narrow down the risk factor in buying a used 65AMG. Perhaps it was resolved in 2008 or 2009, either way it is highly likely the info is internally available. The oil burning issue alone seems particularly as reported by many owners, do you really believe this is normal in a hand assembled German engine?
Thanks for your professional opinion.
09-07-2018, 03:48 PM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
Len..... Not questioning your integrity. Everyone is in such a hurry to get butt-hurt!
Not 'defending my employer.' Lol. I'm well familiar with how manufacturers approach engine issues. Keep in mind that 'burns oil' is considerably more effort to verify then a rod knock. A certain amount of oil consumed is going to be considered 'normal.' Good for you that BMW did right by you sans drama. Imagine if even 10% of owners decided the lump under the hood 'burns too much oil' just before the warranty is up? Rest assured the manufacturer will go to considerable effort at verifying the complaint before laying out five figures to fix it. I'm curious to know how different the response may have been had your MB bent-12 spun a rod bearing. Or if your BMW consumed oil. For the sake of apples to apples comparison. FWIW the biggest Pain to deal with were aftermarket warranty companies. They typically wanted it 'torn down' so we could wait (with now a dead stall) for an inspector to come around and take pictures/insist on used/aftermarket parts ect. It was rare indeed to have MB question anything. The techs saw a problem.... It got fixed.
MB refused to supply you with details of what was repaired? That dealer has an attitude problem. Perhaps it is you? Lol. I'd have you raise hell with MB such that you get documentation of what went into it. Your description is not in keeping with what I got to present to clients at MB during my time there. Clients all got a work order with descriptions of work performed including parts that went into it... Warranty bill read $warranty for a total at the bottom.
'Check the official record?' As previously mentioned... I didn't see a bent 12 apart while there. If MB keeps a running tally as to what blows up and doesn't I'm unaware of it.... But I didn't do warranty coding. That was done upstairs. Heaven help him. I always keep an ear to the ground as to pattern failures. I heard about AMG motors consuming oil. Darned sure the four valve 5.5 liter bent eight had issues with chain drive. I recall hearing of M flavor BMWs consuming oil too. Machines all have problems.
All this said... I got to replace the 275 in my car. It spun a front main bearing on the crankshaft; then spit a bearing shell into the chain drive for bent valves. My replacement engine burns zero oil in 5000 miles so far. Rumor has it I'm the lottery winner with that failure.
Not 'defending my employer.' Lol. I'm well familiar with how manufacturers approach engine issues. Keep in mind that 'burns oil' is considerably more effort to verify then a rod knock. A certain amount of oil consumed is going to be considered 'normal.' Good for you that BMW did right by you sans drama. Imagine if even 10% of owners decided the lump under the hood 'burns too much oil' just before the warranty is up? Rest assured the manufacturer will go to considerable effort at verifying the complaint before laying out five figures to fix it. I'm curious to know how different the response may have been had your MB bent-12 spun a rod bearing. Or if your BMW consumed oil. For the sake of apples to apples comparison. FWIW the biggest Pain to deal with were aftermarket warranty companies. They typically wanted it 'torn down' so we could wait (with now a dead stall) for an inspector to come around and take pictures/insist on used/aftermarket parts ect. It was rare indeed to have MB question anything. The techs saw a problem.... It got fixed.
MB refused to supply you with details of what was repaired? That dealer has an attitude problem. Perhaps it is you? Lol. I'd have you raise hell with MB such that you get documentation of what went into it. Your description is not in keeping with what I got to present to clients at MB during my time there. Clients all got a work order with descriptions of work performed including parts that went into it... Warranty bill read $warranty for a total at the bottom.
'Check the official record?' As previously mentioned... I didn't see a bent 12 apart while there. If MB keeps a running tally as to what blows up and doesn't I'm unaware of it.... But I didn't do warranty coding. That was done upstairs. Heaven help him. I always keep an ear to the ground as to pattern failures. I heard about AMG motors consuming oil. Darned sure the four valve 5.5 liter bent eight had issues with chain drive. I recall hearing of M flavor BMWs consuming oil too. Machines all have problems.
All this said... I got to replace the 275 in my car. It spun a front main bearing on the crankshaft; then spit a bearing shell into the chain drive for bent valves. My replacement engine burns zero oil in 5000 miles so far. Rumor has it I'm the lottery winner with that failure.
