m3j0n

without doing something cheap from china, or ultra expensive custom from HRE, Fikse, CCW, etc?

Pretty much every wheel offered is a non staggered setup whether it is in 18" or 19"... seems ridiculous to me...

Welwynnick

Why would you want staggered wheels?

They ruin the ride and they ruin the handling.

The only upside is looks.

Nick

insame1

Um yeah. That's why so MB cars come with staggered wheels because it is terrible and doesn't make sense.

Where have you looked. Have you considers other MB wheels?

http://www.elementwheels.com/vehicle...pper=&stagg=ON

Welwynnick

Well, that is generally my feeling about staggered wheels on MB cars, though it's obviously not the reason why they're fitted.

I believe that the reason is appearance, which is driven by marketing and not engineering.

Nick

insame1

The reason I run a staggered setup (came stock) is because the car has a lot of HP for a 225 in the rear but a 255 up front would make the turn in and steering feel very heavy. I would like to believe that MB engineers didn't put staggered wheels on my AMG for looks.

thewb

In order for a company to build an off-the-shelf cast wheel they need to ensure that the wheel can fit a variety of different cars to maximize their profit potential. The W220 platform uses an uncommon fitment therefore you won't really find a staggered set of cast wheels unless they are very cheaply made (see built in China).

You can build an 18" or 19" staggered set through Rotiform's custom forged 3-piece wheel for just over $4k when spec'd properly.

m3j0n

riiiight... the factory setup is staggered....

are you kidding me?... You don't think a front engine rear wheel drive v12 twin turbo car should have a staggered setup as a road car?



looked on that site. No results for a staggered set of 18 or 19" wheels. Everything is 20". Thanks for the help though!

On my 600, I'm running a bit more power than stock .... and find even the best street tires in a narrow width to fit stock wheels are virtually useless on the street. Was hoping to go a bit wider in the back to get some more rubber to the ground.

m3j0n

sorry, but rotiform is garbage compared to fikse, ccw, and kinesis. That's just my opinion having owned all 4 brands of wheels...

Welwynnick

Have you tried running 255 up front? You might get a pleasant surprise. I tried wide fronts and it worked so well there's no way I'm going back. I've owned five MB's, the first few with square wheels and the later ones staggered (from the factory). I was quite conscious of what a good chassis the square rigged cars had; they had good ride AND good handling, it was a real sweet spot. Then I moved "upwards" to some sportier models, and though they were fast, they really weren't much fun to drive or ride in. They felt heavy, unbalanced and reluctant to change direction, yet the ride was rough and noisy as well. To some extent it was a matter of getting the right tires and making sure the suspension bushes & joints weren't worn out, but it was sufficiently unpleasant to make me contemplate moving to a different manufacturer. It was a shame, since I knew the stock configuration worked so well, showing that the engineers did know what they were doing. It seemed like there was a really chassis and suspension system that had been designed and tuned really well to work with a particular set of tires, and then someone had come along later to add wider rears, and undone all the good work. So no, I don't think that MB engineers put staggered wheels on for looks, I think it was the marketing folks. I think this sort of thing happens all the time.


Nick

Welwynnick

More fool them, then.... MB does make mistakes.
Not kidding at all. Absolutely a front engine rear wheel drive v12 twin turbo car shouldn't have a staggered setup. It's not nice, and the alternative is so much better. The chassis was designed around a square configuration, and moving to a staggered configuration upsets the chassis.
Me too. Sadly we came into the power race at a time when most people had 2WD. That seems to be changing now, but we are where we are. At least we have the power, even if we can't use all of all of the time. In my experience, wider tires help cornering much more than they help acceleration and braking.


Nick

m3j0n

obviously, youre not running the same type of power....

you claim to have traction problems, but still stating that a narrow tire in the rear is still a good solution?....

Welwynnick

I've done a great deal of experimentation with wheels and tyres over the last few years, and disproved some of my own deep-seated prejudices in the process.

One of the configurations I tried (just for scientific curiosity you understand) was to have 245/40 tires on the right hand side, and 275/35 tires on the left (both front and rear. Yes, really.

With no LSD, I rarely get both rear wheels spinning, but I tried a lot. Sometimes the narrow wheel would spin, sometimes the wide one. It was a statistical toss-up. So I found wide tires made little difference to acceleration, but all the difference in the world to lateral grip.

Now, I didn't actually say that narrow rear tires are good, only that staggered are bad. There are good reasons for having narrow tires, but I couldn't find any good reasons for going staggered on a contemporary MB saloon. (I expect the SLS and GT are different).

My view is that if you want to have narrow tires at the front you should have narrows tires at the rear.

And if you want wide tires at the rear, then you should have wide tires at the front as well.

Nick

insame1

What proof do you have to support staggered setups being bad. You have stated over and over that they ar no good but why? It is not only MB that does it. look at every Porsche Ferrari Lambo Koenigsegg the list goes on an on. But I am sure it is all just marketing right? Hell F1 runs staggered wheels, must be for looks?

Welwynnick

Proof? I tried it on my car, and it drove better. Much better.

It's so much better I'd really encourage every other MB driver with staggered wheels to try it as well. A few E55 drivers have tried it, and never looked back.

Yes, rear- and mid-engine cars usually have staggered wheels, but they have a rear-biased weight distribution.

Moreover, their suspensions are almost certainly designed around staggered wheels, and that will be the optimal configuration.

My impression is that MB saloons at least are designed around square configuration, to which staggered wheels are then added as a marketing afterthought. That seems to be borne out judging by how badly they drive.

Nick

mercar

Isn't that one of the key reason to go with the staggered configuration? At least for most folks, who may not want to experiment or play around with their only car.

Besides acceleration and lateral grip, would there be other unintended consequences (e.g suspension problems, etc) in the longer run. I would like to think not, but the best people who can answer the technical part are probably the engineers who designed these cars. I am not an expert in automobile technology. But layman can overlook things and not know why experts decided to design things a certain way.

Which brings me to my next question that bought me to this thread and I have been posting everywhere - what does Mercedes mean by "light-alloy" wheels (cast? forged?) they put on the AMG cars in 2000s and why they choose such a heavy set of wheels (given the guys that manufactured these for AMG such as BBS have aftermarket lighter wheels and the technology).

mercar

Since I am in need to change my wheels on S55 and they are staggered, I have been looking hard for past day or so. I already found quite a few good options in $1.5K-$2K (rotatory forged as well as cast) range and under $3K (custom forged monoblock) for 19" staggered. All the manufacturers and the wheel shop that will fit them, are very confident that either of these wheels (especially the brake clearance). There are slightly more expensive options like Vossen (cast and forged) that also work. Is there something I am overlooking? I have spent almost a day of my life making sure I am covering all my bases.

I checked with elementwheel but the sales guy said they have nothing that was right for my car Yet they do have the exact stagger set I need, with correct offsets in multiple brand offerings. I called the manufacturer of these brands and confirmed with them that their wheels would fit my particular model.

Yes this car does have unusual fitment in that the choices are not that great, but I think it is reasonable to find a set for decent budget. I have seen prices on ebay for 4-wheel set at less than $700 with right specifications, but I don't think I want to go there!

thewb

I'm not sure I understand your question.

What wheel companies are you considering at the moment that fall under those prices?

Welwynnick

On the contrary, I was talking about mid-engine cars with rear-biased weight distribution, where a staggered configuration makes sense. With a front-engined car, the front wheels have the most work to do, so a square configuration is best IMHO.

Yes, engineers are very good at designing cars, but they often don't get the final say. Marketing carries a lot of weight - always pressing for the largest wheel diameter and lowest tire profile etc, against the better judgement of the engineers.

I tried fitting rear wheels to the front of mine out of curiosity, not knowing whether it would work. I didn't sit at a keyboard arguing with other people about whether it was the wrong thing to do. I went and did it. Well, it did work, and it was one of the best things I've done to my car. Along with using asymmetric tires instead of directional, it allows me to rotate any wheel to any corner. I have two W220's for my sins, and I have 275 tires all round on both of them; no hesitation.

"Light alloy" simply means aluminium alloy as opposed to pressed steel.

Nick

mercar

I spoke with BBS today. They confirmed that the original OEM AMG wheels on my car are cast.

The guy was very helpful. Though the USA website was not showing any fit, he went to German website (where it did show match for my AMG model), and looked at the brake and caliper size/drawings. Matched it with their existing lines and we came up with a few options for staggered settings that will work on my car.

So I am leaning towards BBS performance line (they also allow to buy a new one at 40% discount to buy a new one in case you hits a pothole and your wheel needs to be repaired). They want to discourage people from repairing. The flow form wheels from BBS are pretty reasonable when compared with other aftermarket companies.

The other companies I consider were Rohana and Mori.

thewb

That is awesome. What wheel models from BBS look like they will end up fitting?

Mike@Vossen

We also have our new Vossen x Work lineup of 2 piece staggered wheels on 19" and 20" sizes.

I don't have the W220/221 in our new Vossen3D.com configurator yet but it can help give a general idea of things.

mercar

Mike,

Vossen VC7 (if I recall right) have a right dimensions in 19" for stagger setting on W220 like mine and it clears the big break/callipers. The wheel shop I went to checked on that with Vossen. There is a catch though. This particular wheel shop has its on CNC machines , so they can match the offset and bore pattern, thereby guaranteeing the fit. Vossen flow form VFS/1s also had a fit.

My experience has been that dealer sales guys are quick to say "no fit". Calling the manufacturer and talking to their sales directly helps in finding the right part. Most of the time they are also able to look up the calipers size used on the car and say whether there is good clearance.

Zax63

Just want to add my S65 two cents. I didn't see from the OPs sig which W220 he has, but I have found that the fitment on S65s is even worse, as most software that wheel dealers have show the same rear fitment as a S55, but in fact the rear offsets are 60ET. 55ETs will sometimes fit, but most of the software shows a 45ET, which will not.
Nick, when it comes to suspension and cooling systems I have yet to disagree with you, but I will counter you on the staggered fitment. I have two race cars that both run aggressively wider rear tires than fronts with an exactly 50-50 weight distribution, and indeed the staggered fitment gets me around the track a bit quicker as I can get into the power a little earlier and harder as I am unwinding my hands past apex. With the S65, on an onramp, when I get on it with a narrower rear tire (I have tried) the rear comes around far too easily. I need even more rubber if I could fit it to deliver power once I am done trail braking and past apex. While the narrower fitment up front can lead to plowing, I find the extra rubber out back helps with application of power and that trumps the plowing issue. In addition, when I get on the gas at a light, narrower tires "light up" a bit too easily. Makes for a fun show, but worse launch. My drag radials are 285's on a custom CCW 55ET rear fitment, and there is not much more room back there...maybe 20 more mills.

Mike@Vossen

Hey. We recommend what we have that fits with our specs. We do know multiple shops that have CNC machines and have the expertise to make adjustments.

It is always great to find people trying to truly assist someone instead of just offering the first door without even trying others.

Welwynnick

Hi Zax, I think I know what you mean. If you set up a car so that it's neutral, it's only balanced when you're not accelerating or braking. So that means at the limit, if you brake into a corner, or accelerate out of a corner, that will usually upset the rear end. A good lap depends on being able to get the power down early coming out corners, so race cars are usually set up with wide tires and/or soft suspension at the rear to help dynamic traction. With no power or brakes, that will make the front push, but it helps the time if the driver can balance the car.

I drove around with a bad ABS sensor cable for a little while, so had no electronic aids. It was surprisingly easy to lose one end or the other, but difficult to control. Everything is slugged and time-delayed, and contrives to make it uncontrollable IMHO. I've had lots of tail-out action in my time, but not in the W220. Yes, it's a powerful RWD car, but it doesn't lend itself to balancing the chassis with the throttle like a sports car. The steering is slow, the throttle is slow and the brakes are slow. I think it works best when you stay just within the limits, and keep it on rails, then it's very effective and enjoyable.

My first S600 NA had 225/55/17 all round, and they were too small for the power. 245/45/18 all round worked really well. However, I'm not sure I'd want to drive a V12TT with just 245's. With 245 / 275 on my TT, I found it was quite an uninspiring car - fast, yes - but not very enjoyable to drive. The power was a novelty, but while it added something, it took something away as well.

Since I went to 275/30 all round I've never looked back. I'm sure the tail will bite if I get on the gas too early, but it's never actually felt tail happy. It still feels like the steering leads the nose, and the nose leads the tail, so it's responsive without feeling unstable. When you corner hard, and want to tighten the line, it doesn't feel like the steering is pushing the tail out instead of pulling the nose in. And boy, does it corner hard. The limits are huge, and it stays flat and neutral up to the limit (at least as far as I've pushed). I think its hugely talented, just without the feedback and adjustability that you get on the best cars.

So I suppose I'm saying no - narrow rear tires on powerful cars aren't great, but wide front tires ARE. I think I've given up trying to persuade others what a good idea it is. Everyone sticks to "Mercedes-knows-best". I thought I found something new and exciting, and didn't want keep it to myself.

How's that fantastic car of yours going?

regards, Nick