SL/R129: new vs, old
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new vs, old
i just tested out a 05 C55 from Fletcher Jones, and may i say that the new mercedes dont feel that "solid" any more. the whole car felt like it was made of plastic and it was hard to "feel" the road. i also experienced this when i drove an 03 CL500. why is this that these cars feel so diffent than they useto??? one would think that for such a big price tag you would get to expierence more than a shakey frame. is it true that they dont use real wood any more??
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From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
1999 SL 500 & 2011 E 550 4Matic
I had similar imperession after test driving a SL 55 that had 20,000 miles on it. The experience has left me looking for a R1230 SL 600.
The experience also has me appreciating the R129 even more.
The experience also has me appreciating the R129 even more.
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From: Illinois
190E, SL500, Alfa Romeo 164L
I think the wood is real... But I agree, the newer cars just don't have that solid feel to them. It's unfortunate, becuase that was always part of the Mercedes experience to me. You just felt like you were in a different car than even other German makes. The R230's are good cars, but they just don't seem to have that Mercedes feel - at least to the extent of the former models. I really don't know what happened with that company, but it's sad. They've just about lost touch with much of their heritage to satisfy greedy shareholders and big company types. (Ironic how they rely on their heritage for advertising and marketing, but not in manufacturing and engineering). It will cost them in the long run, if things don't dramatically change. MB execs say they're looking to return to their more traditional values - they can't do it soon enough if you ask me.
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From: L.A.
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MB market
I guess they are tryin' to reach/expand their clientele otherwise I do NOT see why they even make C230 for $25k,when they sell the $100k cars with no problem.To me this is wrong way to go.If there is no star on the C230,but Honda emblem on the grille,nobody will buy it!Shame.
Look what VW made the Bentley look like...nobody cares for RR anymore.
R230's are fine...C should never be made.
Look what VW made the Bentley look like...nobody cares for RR anymore.
R230's are fine...C should never be made.
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i could not agree more on the fact that they should cut out the C klass. way back when Mbz first came out, there 1911 modle sold for 10K (about 198K TODAY) and that was there BOL (bottom of the line) modle. now you can get a benz for about 22K, i think it is a joke that this company that usto compeat with bently and RR is now compeating with lexus (TOYOTA!) it is insane. it would be nice to see mbz take back there name and start improving on there cars.
can someone explane to me the daimler-christler and who owns who?? mercedes owns christler or visa versa...
mark
can someone explane to me the daimler-christler and who owns who?? mercedes owns christler or visa versa...
mark
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Well, back then, just owning a car was a luxury (almost like how owning a jet is today I suppose).
As for the market expansion, Daimler-Benz probably wouldn't have been able to survive without getting bought out. With their emphasis on innovation and safety research, they need the money to fund those projects. The more mainstream versions just make that funding more possible since there may be quite abit of people who don't believe in spending more than 40k on a car (and some people actually believe, "If it cost twice as much, it BETTER be twice the car
). By taking potential Camry and Maxima customers to buy the C-class will allow them to make more money than just focusing to the high end market. According to some other member on the forum (I don't remember who, sorry), the R129 was not a money making car line due to the expensive research despite its starting price of $80k.
As for the low end market, the Mercedes brand was no stranger to that. In the 80's, there was the D-class (and may be the 190E too) that was affordable. As for earlier, I don't know any exact models. They have been making trucks and vans in the past too. I think they were the primary source for commercial vehicles in Germany (someone had to supply it).
For the Daimler-Chrysler issue, it was a "merger of equals" but it doesn't seem so. Daimler-Benz pretty much "took over" Chrysler since they were having financial problems. Chrysler probably would have never accepted the offer but without making money, they really had no choice.
As for the market expansion, Daimler-Benz probably wouldn't have been able to survive without getting bought out. With their emphasis on innovation and safety research, they need the money to fund those projects. The more mainstream versions just make that funding more possible since there may be quite abit of people who don't believe in spending more than 40k on a car (and some people actually believe, "If it cost twice as much, it BETTER be twice the car
). By taking potential Camry and Maxima customers to buy the C-class will allow them to make more money than just focusing to the high end market. According to some other member on the forum (I don't remember who, sorry), the R129 was not a money making car line due to the expensive research despite its starting price of $80k.As for the low end market, the Mercedes brand was no stranger to that. In the 80's, there was the D-class (and may be the 190E too) that was affordable. As for earlier, I don't know any exact models. They have been making trucks and vans in the past too. I think they were the primary source for commercial vehicles in Germany (someone had to supply it).
For the Daimler-Chrysler issue, it was a "merger of equals" but it doesn't seem so. Daimler-Benz pretty much "took over" Chrysler since they were having financial problems. Chrysler probably would have never accepted the offer but without making money, they really had no choice.
Last edited by pcviewer; Apr 11, 2005 at 04:24 AM.
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so benz took over christler? but then why did there quality decrease? you would think that they would make benz even more expensive and make christler for the "common man" any whay thank you for the info!!
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2006 Aston Martin Vantage
On the topic of quality decrease, I read it had to do with cost cutting measures to increase profits. The Mercedes brand must still be able to compete with other car companies and with Lexus' development of making the luxury car affordable, it almost leaves them no choice. When the W220 came out, the base price of the S500 was ~$10k less than the W140 S500, bring the base S430 closer to the likes of the LS430. To top that off, without the price cut, some people would have to be convinced to spend more money on the "same car." Remeber, most people don't know or care what is outside of the cabin space of their cars (let alone that most car buyers are not car enthusists). They could careless about how Mercedes developed the ABS brake system, let alone they pioneered the usage of side airbags (and airbag itself, I believe). Some people go as far as to say that it is the reliability and the number of gadgets that makes a car "better." Sure, there will be people who will still buy Mercedes despite the costs but once again, if there aren't many customers and low profits, there is almost no point in remaining in business.
As for Chrysler (the Chrysler brand cars), believe it or not, it is (may be better said as was?) actually a luxury brand! As for the "common man" car, that is where the other Chrysler marques come in, such as Dodge (except the Viper of course).
Before the merger, Daimler-Benz was a profitable company and Chrysler was near bankrupcy I think. In an effort to bring up the Chrysler company, I think I read that profits from the Daimler side was used = less spending for Mercedes cars I suppose.
As for Chrysler (the Chrysler brand cars), believe it or not, it is (may be better said as was?) actually a luxury brand! As for the "common man" car, that is where the other Chrysler marques come in, such as Dodge (except the Viper of course).
Before the merger, Daimler-Benz was a profitable company and Chrysler was near bankrupcy I think. In an effort to bring up the Chrysler company, I think I read that profits from the Daimler side was used = less spending for Mercedes cars I suppose.
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SL55 AMG
Originally Posted by ChrisB
I had similar imperession after test driving a SL 55 that had 20,000 miles on it. The experience has left me looking for a R1230 SL 600.
The experience also has me appreciating the R129 even more.
The experience also has me appreciating the R129 even more.
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From: Georgia
E 63S Wagon Renntech, E55 Renntech, SL65, SL 55 030, ML, bunch of old ones--they come, they go...
I'm currently driving a 129 500 today...
and I still have my W208 CLK 430 cab with some mods. Sold my 03 SL 500 right after I got it. Still am amazed that the 129 is an incredible car, and yes, no new Benz has that all in one piece feel that it (and the G wagen, which is soon gone) have. The old days are gone friends, as are the quality and old world feel that went with them. I'm sure I'll own some more of the new cars, and the new features and looks are cool. But they will never be what the old cars were in terms of build quality and raw materials. It's the world we live in. Old guys like me are expected by DC to keep buying the cars, and they feel that the young customers are gullible enough to buy a Benz based on their past reputation. Stupid thing is, they don't realize that these young and demanding customers aren't going to come back for more if things don't get better in terms of quality control and customer service. They are used to getting it at Acura, Honda, and Toyota.
BTW, (1) the DC/Benz merger was mainly about plants. The Germans thought they were going to obtain some US and other facilities that were going to make their life easier and less expensive. And boy has it backfired. No one would have predicted that Chrysler would have come out on the better end of this deal. 2. The C class (and A and V class) cars that you hate are the ones that make these other cars possible. Economies of scale and just plain volume keep the money turning over, and with the tailspin in Mercedes profits, they need it. 3. Keep in mind what my MB rep told me a couple years ago. "We used to make the best cars. Now all we make is money".
Still Sad.
BTW, (1) the DC/Benz merger was mainly about plants. The Germans thought they were going to obtain some US and other facilities that were going to make their life easier and less expensive. And boy has it backfired. No one would have predicted that Chrysler would have come out on the better end of this deal. 2. The C class (and A and V class) cars that you hate are the ones that make these other cars possible. Economies of scale and just plain volume keep the money turning over, and with the tailspin in Mercedes profits, they need it. 3. Keep in mind what my MB rep told me a couple years ago. "We used to make the best cars. Now all we make is money".
Still Sad.
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From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
1999 SL 500 & 2011 E 550 4Matic
Originally Posted by blueSL
Don't know why you think the R230 SL600 would be any different. Same car, built on the same line ... The R230 is less expensive in real terms than the R129 was, so something has to give.
After 2 years of admiring the R230 from a distance ... my 20 minute test drive in the SL55 did not match my hightened expectation.
After being disappointed somehow by the SL55, I immediatly rationalized that I must have been let down by the sporty muscle car thing the SL55 represents.
I have not yet riden in, let alone driven an R230 SL600. So I have been rationalizing that it was the luxury feel that I missed comairing the R129 to the SL55. The R230 SL600 is all about more luxury, so that must be the ticket.
If you are right BlueSL, in that the build solidness is what is lacking and turns out to be what I sence is missing from the R230 SL600 as well as the SL55 ... I will be one disappointed camper.
I do hope that my first R230 impression was distorted some how.
I like the MB quality I am familiar with.
The SL experience I am accustomed to would be made even better by the addition of the R230's stylish beauty, added practicality of the retractible hard top and the SL600's biturbo power that I would enjoy. Electronic toys like NAV system don't matter much to me.
I remain optimistic.
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From: UK
SL55 AMG
You may find that the SL600 is more to your liking because it's possible that you are seeing the harder edge of the SL55 as inferior build quality - noise, harder ride. But, leaving aside the different grades of leather, the interior is pretty much the same and so is the great majority of the car.
You may find the softer ride of the SL600 and the different engine and exhaust note appeal more. For me, the SL55 is plenty soft enough and when you throttle back to a relaxed 70 - 80 mph cruise, it's pretty refined.
You may find the softer ride of the SL600 and the different engine and exhaust note appeal more. For me, the SL55 is plenty soft enough and when you throttle back to a relaxed 70 - 80 mph cruise, it's pretty refined.
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From: Georgia
E 63S Wagon Renntech, E55 Renntech, SL65, SL 55 030, ML, bunch of old ones--they come, they go...
You probably would...
in fact be happier with the R230 500 than 600. The 500 definitely has a softer edge than the 55, and the 600 to me, feels a bit out of its element until it's got some room to stretch its legs. And there is no way I'd pay the 30ish k difference in the 2. Yes, other than some nicer leather, and a bit nicer trim, there is not that much inherently different. I'm sure that some 600 owner will jump up here and say that there is, and that's fine. But the sophistication of the 12 and it's related parts (brakes, tranny, and the higher costs of satisfaction on a 130k car) are what make it cost so much more.
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From: Abbotsford, BC, Canada
1999 SL 500 & 2011 E 550 4Matic
Originally Posted by allenjdmb
be happier with the R230 500 than 600. The 500 definitely has a softer edge than the 55, and the 600 to me, feels a bit out of its element until it's got some room to stretch its legs. And there is no way I'd pay the 30ish k difference in the 2. Yes, other than some nicer leather, and a bit nicer trim, there is not that much inherently different.
For a long time now I have been thinking the 500 has become obsolite some how in light of 55, 600, 65 ...
When I posed the is the 500 obsolite question on this forum about a year ago, there was one member that replied he thought the 500 was the best offering in the SL line up. Now I have heard another diserning member say a similar thing.
I love the power the 500 provides. 99.9% of the time I am completely satified by what is on tap power wise. Already, 100% of the time my wife thinks I drive too fast and accelerate too hard.
I look foreward to systematically the test driving the R230 line up. The 55 again, the 600 for sure (novelty) and will rember your advice to keep an open mind for the 500.
They say that buying a car is an emotional reaction. For the money diference between the 500 and 55 & 600, logic is definitly required.
Thanks for the reminder that the 500 for me still could be the most desireable car based on it's own individual merrits.
Last edited by ChrisB; Apr 16, 2005 at 01:46 PM.
