vixapphire

I can't believe this. I was in Keyes Friday morning getting the "B" Service on my 2002 Silver Arrow SL 500 and this afternoon on the way home the "Check Engine" light came on --- and stayed on even when I'd stop and restart the car, and after I left the car sit while grocery shopping.

The Keyes guys did an inspection and gave my ride a clean bill of health on Friday, and I've not been doing anything other than my banal and easygoing commute on MTW; now this!

Unfortunately I need to be in OC tomorrow morning around 10, so I have to get to Keyes extra-early to rip these guys a new one and have them figure out what's going on with the car so I can get down there. This kind of thing always happens when you have the least time to deal with it, doesn't it?

Needless to say, consider me a little pissed off about it!

soldbyyou

I had that happen to me too a few months ago and was not happy after I left the dealership 1,900.00 poorer LOL (had new tires and some other stuff replaced).

I tightend down my gas cap and the light went off after turning the car off and on again.

hineywineries

I'm a little late on This one, but I feel the need to make a comment. I hope you didn't rip em a new one as you said, because you probably made a fool of yourself. I don't think the shop had anything to do with the problem, and even if they did you are morally bound to discuss it with them first. With an attitude like that, I would have asked you to never come back when I had my MB facility. My mechanics had a standing order to not take any such abuse. They had my permission to throw such folks out and make room for civilized ones. Hopefully you just had a bad day and handled the situation more respunsibly after reflection.

CWW

Ahh...come on...guy gets a CEL 5 minutes after pulling off the lot, he's kinda got a right to be at least a little bit upset...I would be too.

The odds of that happening in that kind of time-frame and having it NOT be something the dealer didn't touch are almost astronomical. Yes, **** happens, but logic says that it's not likely to be something totally unrelated to the service visit, given those facts...

hineywineries

Ah grasshopper. You must read more carefully. The post says 5 DAYS not 5 minutes. This is why a professional mechanic can solve problems when parts changers cannot. You must listen, ask key questions, and deduce.

CWW

Oh ya, you're right. It was a week later.

Oops...I dunno why, but I somehow read it as being same-day. My mistake.

hineywineries

All is forgiven, grasshopper.

vixapphire

well, i don't know what being "respunsible" is, but i took the car back and was all civilized as i usually am. i like my service adviser guy, and the mechanics are pretty mellow dudes and they always hook me up with a wash etc., so what're ya gonna do?

i just told them what happened, how i thought it was bizarre that it didn't show up in the B service, and that we should plug it into the computer to figure it out. given it's an intermittent warning (doesn't always come on, but when it does, it stays on), and i also advised i've got a slight electrical glitch/intermittent contact in that part of my instrument panel (the tach is screwy), and that the ride, idle, etc. has not been affected in the least, i just wanted to make sure it wasn't going to blow up on me or really damage the car.

turns out it was the "mass air sensor". keyes wanted nearly a grand to fix it (including 2.5 hours of labor) so i took it to my benz guy who's been fixing merc's since before most of the keyes guys were born and he quoted me $450. go figure.

turned out to be not the big engine-wrecker that i thought.

what was disappointing about this experience, though, was that i was now told my brakes have 5-10% remaining, and my engine has a small rear-seal oil leak (at 30k miles, mind you). the fact that a week earlier when the same dealer was supposedly doing the 'major service' and inspection (and i had specifically instructed them to look for everything wrong with the car) i was told the brakes were at 40-50% and no leaks were mentioned put a damper on my confidence in the keyes guys. everyone's got a right to be off their game once in awhile, but for $135/hour labor rates and at a premium-brand dealership the customer has a right to expect a little more than that, too. they were off by 90% on the brake estimate, for instance. wtf keyes?

vixapphire

p.s. if it was five minutes i'd have expressed disappointment and impatience, which is a far more effective manner of "tearing a new one" than actually huffing a puffing like an impotent moron.

to "tear someone a new one" is a figurative term, after all. I'd venture that most of us successful enough to own (and maintain) an SL of any vintage learned that a long time ago. i'll admit to being amused by the scolding, though.

CWW

Ehhhh...

You gotta look at the other possibilities, too. Could be, the shop is exaggerating the brake wear and the oil leak to get some extra business. Fact is, if your brakes were down to 5-10%, your brake pad warning light would already be on.

vixapphire

but according to that other guy, i should take this posture before the service dept at all times: or risk being thrown out of there. you know, gotta kowtow before the self-righteous!

my brakes are getting a set of pads that i'm gonna install. keyes can blow me. i checked the rotors myself and the wear is fine. i told the guy when he said they were down to 5-10% from 40-50 a couple of weeks earlier that, judging by his estimation, i'd be going through a set of brakes every 6-8 weeks, and that's pretty mild driving of no more than about 200 miles!

keyes can choke on my pole.

hineywineries

QUESTION AND COMMENT

Question: What the heck are "Keyes"?
Comment: I suggest finding a good independent who is well recommended and honest. Unfortunately the climate has changed over the years at Mercedes towards the American way which is "screw em and grab the buck". Mercedes has learned the ways od Detroit. I was proud to be a Mercedes mechanic when I served my apprenticeship with Mercedes about 30 years ago. Back then MB stood behind the quality of the marque. As an example, if MB saw that they were having a problem with the vibration dampner on their V6s, they would have initiated a recall. As many of you know this problem did pop up a few years ago, and when thousands of owners broughtr their cars into the dealer for repair, they were told that it was a rare instance. It took owners getting together on the internet and filing a class action suit to get MB to admit there was a problem. Another issue is the tail light assemblies burning out on the SLK230s. MB made the statement that replacement bulbs were somehow different than original bulbs that came with the car. That's BULLSH*T. A 21 watt bulb is a 21 watt bulb. The assemblies are so border line in quality they might not even meet UL listing if required. The SLK owners didn't have to fight for a recall, because it was a safety issue, and the National Transportation Safety Board stepped in.

I have seen the quality of MB head into the toilet over the years. They have learned from Chrysler how to make junk and high profits. I will cut them a little slack in making things lighter and less durable, because all the car companies are under pressure to meet CAFE strict requirements.

I gotta go. Got an appointment to put a Dog Bone in a lady's car. I'll post again tomorrow to tell you the biggest reason quality of service has gone down at dealerships.
CIAO

vixapphire

Thanks H; I've got a great indie guy who started with MB in around 73, so he's been at it long as you, I'm guessing. The real deal.

Keyes is a gargantuan dealership group in the valley above LA. You know the type...


I don't know whether you saw the other thread I started this week concerning the now-flashing reserve-fuel light (tank is still above 1/2). Another fellow suggested it's the "fuel purge system" and possibly a leak of some sort. I poked around the web to figure out what he was talking about and found that the mass air flow sensor thing that's apparently at issue with the check engine light (according to the diagnostic computer) is also part of the fuel system; given that the reserve-lamp flashing is intermittent as is the check engine light (albeit the reserve starts flashing well after the check engine light goes on), how likely is it that the flashing reserve lamp on the instrument panel is pointing to the same issue? On the other hand, how likely is this a symptom of a different problem than the air sensor, and thus likely to become a domino-like "prison-train" on my wallet?

Floobydust

My belated 2 cents worth . . .

The MAF sensor is probably one of the most common failure items on the 113 (5 liter) engine. The sensor element gradually gets dirty over time and so is unable to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio. The OBDII logic in the ECU detects this condition and turns on the Check Engine light.

The fact that this happened shortly after service doesn't surprise me in the least. If the A/F is right on the edge (due to a deteriorating MAF sensor), any change to the engine that affects its thermodynamic efficiency can cause the light to suddenly come on. This would include changing/cleaning the air filter and might include changing the oil (yes, the old oil breaks down resulting in more friction and less sealing at the combustion chamber wall), or even just moving the intake plumbing while do other things (there are two rubber O-rings on the MAF, one of which is on the hot side of the manifold and which tends to get hard and not seal as well).

I sourced a MAF on the net for $185 plus $6 each for the O-rings from the dealer. I replaced everything in under 15 minutes with only a screwdriver (and you don't even really need that, but it helps). I reset the MIL (Check Engine light) with an OBDII scanner and it's been trouble free for the last 15K miles.

- FD

hineywineries

Congrats on finding a good independent. You're just going to have to have the system scanned with a professional scanner. I've posted many times on this subject, but I guess I haven't reached everyone yet. Those cheap generic scanners will supply basic code info, but there may be other stored codes that won't show. I have personnally scanned with a Snap-On scanner which is very good and not been able to pick up codes. I then scanned with a Baum scanner which is several thousand dollars and retreived the codes. The new Snap-On Modis which I believe is around $5000 is supposed to be a great improvement, but I'm just starting to experiment with it. The Baum scanner is several thousand dollars and is very good. The ultimate is SDS which can check everything and reprogram modules and can be purchased from MB. If you and a few friends want to get together and chip in, Mercedes will sell you one. I can even Fax you a copy of the order form and contract. All you needto do is send all the documents back with a check for $21,0000. Yearly updates will run $7,000 after the first year. I always ask people if a $200 scanner will do the job, why do shops spend all this money?

Post script: You're not running one of those silly K&N filters are you. They really cause havoc with the fuel system.

HLG600

How so? The only issues that have arisen with these filters occur when people "recharge" them and use an excess of oil. When tested, they yielded double the CFM flow. I don't even see the point of re-oiling them. After they are used up, just toss them for a fresh set.

Floobydust

BTW, you can get the Chinese knock-off of the SDS system for under $5k. It wouldn't surprise me if these systems are actually made by the same Chinese factory where MB seems to be having all of their more recent electronics made ("made in China" is ubiquitous on my '08 ML550). I wouldn't recommend one of these for a pro shop, but for an avid tuner, club, etc., especially with a older model like the R129, they would be great.

Also, I agree about the level of diagnostics provided by scanners with various levels of sophistication. Some read just OBDII, some read CAN bus, and only the SDS can read/program everything on a Benz. But, some problems can be diagnosed with simple tools and others cannot, so the simple scanners can and do serve a purpose.

- FD

HLG600

They do, and are great for DIY guys. However, for a shop, you are right, it has to be legitimate. I know my indy guy has state of the art scanning equipment, and is diligent in determining the source of any electrical gremlins that come my way.

CWW

Well that's the rub!

Most people think "the directions say to use xxx amount of oil, so if I use xxx times 2, it will be even better!", and go exxon-valdez on it. Others probably don't read the directions at all.

Personally, my problem with K&N is that they legitimately do lower the intake pressure, and they legitimately do admit twice as much air, but they also admit 10 times as much crap, and for me that outweighs the airflow benefits.

hineywineries

I couldn't have said it better. The increased air flow might give you a couple of extra horses, but to get that, you decrease the micron rating of the filter. You oil them to catch the dirt, which would have been ok before the advent of mass airflow sensors. The best air filters are oil bath, but they appear to have fallen out of favor. MB used to have them, and I seviced them. They trapped an unbelievable amount of crud that would have gone into an engine. The way oil baths work is air and dirt scream along together being pulled by engine vacuum. Then the air is forced to make a u-turn by the design of the filter. The dirt can't make the u-turn and plows into the oil which is where it stays until the filter is serviced.

hineywineries

You're just reiterating what I've been saying about the direction MB is heading. Another good example is how a lot of C class owners have had to shell out for new transmissions, because MB switched from Behr radiators to some other cost cutting junk brand. The trans coolers in the bottom of the radiators all sprung leaks and put coolant into the trans.

Floobydust

Yes, indeed, MB has never mastered the art of engineering to a cost because, well, they didn't have to. A part was designed or a supplier chosen because it was available or deemed to be the right one for the job and the cost was just added to sticker. The quality/price ratio never needed to be critically evaluated and their penchant for quality usually kept things reliable, but often overbuilt and expensive.

Once the Japanese showed that they could build cars that were luxurious, reliable, and low cost, MB (and the other Euro luxury car companies) had to try and learn to source or engineer parts for both engineering and price requirements. They still haven't got it. They too have gone to China and Asia, but their engineering and quality systems haven't yet been fined tuned enough to know crap from craft. This is essential once you step outside the traditional European supplier chain.

Just my thoughts,

- FD

vixapphire

Here's the best part of this entire story.

I brought the car this morning to my phenomenal Merc guy, Shant up on Sherman Way, dropped it off with the instrux to do the mass air flow thing; he gave me a loaner and a fare-thee-well until early in the week. OK, I thought, here goes about $450-500 per his quote last weekend.

No more than a half hour later, I get a call from him -- I hadn't even arrived home yet in the loaner -- telling me I can turn around and come get the car. He ran the diagnostic computer on it and found a vacuum leak that was throwing the car into crazy a/f mixture-land and upsetting the purge system as well. Basically, he repaired what he called a fairly obvious under-the-engine-cover hose problem (pretty sure a hose had come undone is all), and that was it. 1/2 hour labor and I was out the door.

Note: I paid less than 10% of what those Keyes *******s quoted me for the job, which turns out to have been (a) not on the computer's diagnostic; and (b) completely fabricated by their mechanics to bilk a customer out of nearly $900.00.

Now, anyone here care to give me another ration of ****e for having a skeptical attitude regarding dealership service? I know not every dealer is a thief (Martin Cadillac on Bundy in west L.A. is great, as is Patrick Cadillac in
Schaumburg IL), but I've yet to find a Mercedes dealer's service dept that isn't manned either by complete hacks, thieving dirtbags, or both. My experience described in this thread has only confirmed my original suspicions about these toolbags!

v

hineywineries

Please review my post #12 and congrats on following my suggestion.

vixapphire

yeah, well i'd had this indie guy for several years already, so it's not like finding an independent non-dealer mechanic was a novelty.

funny enough, though, he started working for Mercedes around the time you did. I previously owned a '72 280 SE 4.5, and when i brought it to him to check out he got all nostalgic and told me about how those were the first cars he worked on as a mechanic back around '73/4 when he started his career. my first experience with him was when i bought a '92 190E from chicago and took it to him to rehab.

it certainly pays in peace of mind (and of wallet) to have a trustworthy auto guy.

i'm still waiting for that "single biggest reason" you said that you were going to check back in with about dealer service, before you got sidetracked into a discussion of diagnostics and air filters... do tell!

v