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After a quick peruse of the link below, the user who started that thread already had a 911. He gave a great writeup by the way. Useful information. I like variety also and he chose to order a new SL after selling his 911. Makes sense.
I didn’t say ALL people. I used the word “mostly.”
I said “the SL mostly suits people who can’t buy a 911 (not on the list, none available, etc). Most people who have the budget for just one such car would choose a 911 if a 911 were available.”
I firmly believe most people in the market who aren’t “Porsche 911 Rejects” (someone who can’t obtain a 911, someone who is mad at Porsche because he cannot obtain a 911, or someone who is a downright hater of the 911) would choose a 911 over the new SL if he or she had a budget for just one 2+2 car.
I use the term “Reject” in jest and do not wish to offend anyone. It’s a joke. And I doubt anyone here would admit to fitting the definition. But obviously anyone who has a specific bias against the 911 or the Porsche brand will tend not to buy one; and anyone who wants a 911 but who isn’t able to find an available allocation or dealer stock unit isn’t going to buy one.
Lastly, someone who already has a 911 or previously owned one might be looking for variety and might buy a SL, and that’s understandable. It’s even understandable if some folks buy a SL who are the exceptions to my suggestion of “most.”
Many of us have all kinds of cars that complement the other cars we own. For example: I chose to buy a BMW Z4 recently. “It’s not a Boxster” is what every review says. You bet it isn’t. It’d be crazy in most cases to buy an Z4 over a Boxster. But I own two Boxsters already. And the Z4 does a few things better than the Boxster which makes it a different experience.
Let’s remember: this discussion is mostly conjecture based on experience and knowledge. Different people can disagree while having similar levels of experience and knowledge. Just having a fun discussion here. It’s me against a barrage of R232 fans. Obviously I am going to be flamed. Nobody has ugly children, and few people predisposed to the R232 or who already own one are going to disparage the R232 and agree with me.
The new SL is not a piece of crap. It’s a German-made fine machine. Period. I do not doubt it’s a great driving car. To me, a great many compromises were allowed for its development which I would not allow and which do not permit me to like the car. Further, a great many questionable design decisions were made that resulted in the final product. For me the car is a step backwards in many ways** and therefore I do not like the car.
=====
**Interior quality, overall quality, softop vs hardtop, ergonomics (rearward and lateral visibility, natural light in the cabin, trunk space, ease of use of interior functions), no soft close doors, no ABC suspension, longer car, heavier car, bland exterior appearance.
Folks, let's be clear about why some folks change brands and models: age. How many posts can you find on Rennlist from posters who, by their own admission, are too old to climb into and out of a 911, Cayman or Panamera? Lots of posts like this.
Furthermore it's not hard to find posts on Rennlist from 911 owners stating that 911s are not the most comfortable car. Especially portly guys. Or "wide-shouldered" guys lol.
It's well-accepted the typical SL buyer historically has been a male of higher-than-average age. To wit: old guys. No offense intended, 100% of us get old. Roughly 50% of those getting old are male, therefore the use of the word "guys". It's just how it is. Lastly, portliness (see above) is commonly associated with advancing years. Again, 911 gets kicked to the curb for age-related reasons, not because it is a worse car than an SL.
It is no surprise that some 911/Cayman/Boxster owners buy SLs, for the reason that they have aged out of sports car ownership.
Do a similar thought exercise on buyers of full-suspension carbon-framed mountain bikes, compared with upright-seating-position cruiser-type bikes? It's age.
Incidentally, I was recently (within two weeks) at a large Mercedes dealer in an affluent area known for SL ownership where a longtime friend/former colleague/longtime sales professional gave me the latest inside story on the R232 SL.
Note: he often used the words "nobody" or "all," which obviously are exaggerations but they mean "almost nobody" or "very few," or "almost all." I paraphrase as follows.
"Nobody is buying these things right now. We had to discount the sh*t out of the remaining 2022s to get them out the door. The $10k advertised incentive was just the beginning. Older people don't want this car. Long-time SL buyers don't like it -- it's too complicated inside and it doesn't feel like an upscale vehicle anymore. It's not as practical for them. Bigger car, less space. The trunk is a joke. I'm not sure who is going to be buying these cars."
I realize we are on a Mercedes forum with lots of R232 SL fans and older SL owners who like the R232 SL. But it's tough out there for the R232 and the dealers trying to sell them. (I do not sympathize with the dealers since they acted terribly when they overcharged buyers for R232 when it first appeared.)
As of the time of this post, there are:
- 242 new 2022s SL on Autotrader
- 460 new 2023s SL on Autotrader
That is a boat load of unsold SLs.
By the way -- a search for new Porsche 911 on Autotrader today returns ZERO results. Zero.
Mercedes won't do this, but they should announce that they will skip 2024 and return in 2025; the 2025 SL should return with a significantly lower price (Mercedes: will you not learn from BMW's 8 Series failure?), some kind of updated styling inside and out, and way more equipment included as standard -- if I'm CEO, I tell the marketing team to dispense with the á la carte nonsense: get rid of nearly all the options and make pretty much everything standard at a killer price. The 63 should become a 63S; the 55 should NOT have less power than a 2003 SL55 (Hello? How about 503 horsepower which is 10 more than the 2003 car).
'22 AMG SL55;'23 Porsche Cayenne S Coupe;'13 Porsche Boxster S
I think everyone agrees that MB screwed up with the marketing and launch of the 232 SL. However that should not be confused with the actual car. It is an awesome car. I'm a bit confused with the comparison with the 2003 SL55. While it might have more horse power, it was almost 1 second slower 0-60. There is absolutely no way that the old model had the growl of the 232 SL55. Put the new SL into Sport+ and down shift manually. The deep throated growl and the gunshot like down shift pops tell everyone that this is no stodgy boulevard cruiser. Because of the amount of standard equipment, I think the new SL is a decent value especially since it is an AMG model that is not just a trim package. A similarly equipped Porsche 911 will cost significantly more money. I love all of the tech in the car (I am not in the young demographic). The only feature I wished it had was soft close doors. The back seats come in handy for short trips around town (my daughter was able to sit in the back seat and her husband was in the passenger seat today when we went out to pick up lunch). There is more than enough storage in the trunk for carry on luggage, or ten bags of groceries (based on last night's trip to Kroger's).
The 232 SL and the prior generations are fundamentally different cars. It is like comparing the new C8 mid-engine Corvette with the C7 and earlier Corvettes. Like the 232 SL, the C8 has a higher sticker price, a completely new interior, drive train, tech, etc,, Objectively, the C8 is a better car than the C7. Earlier today, I parked next to a Pagoda SL. It is one of my favorite cars, but they are distant cousins who happen to both wear the SL badge. I'm just thrilled that MB had the guts to launch a ground up new model that still has a meaty V-8 engine and serious performance. I have about 1500 miles on the car. I drive it like a hooligan, and the 8 MPG demonstrates that I am having a blast. I promised my wife that I would set up a profile for her with her settings. My fear is that once she drives it, I will be relegated to driving our other cars.
I think everyone agrees that MB screwed up of the marketing and launch of the 232 SL. However that should not be confused with the actual car. It is an awesome car. I'm a bit confused with the comparison with the 2003 SL55. While it might have more horse power, it was almost 1 second slower 0-60. There is absolutely no way that the old model had the growl of the 232 SL55. Put the new SL into Sport+ and down shift manually. The deep throated growl and the gunshot like down shift pops tell everyone that this is no stodgy boulevard cruiser. Because of the amount of standard equipment, I think the new SL is a decent value especially since it is an AMG model that is not just a trim package. A similarly equipped Porsche 911 will cost significantly more money. I love all of the tech in the car (I am not in the young demographic). The only feature I wished it had was soft close doors. The back seats come in handy for short trips around town (my daughter was able to sit in the back seat and her husband was in the passenger seat today when we went out to pick up lunch). There is more than enough storage in the trunk for carry on luggage, or ten bags of groceries (based on last night's trip to Kroger's).
The 232 SL and the prior generations are fundamentally different cars. It is like comparing the new C8 mid-engine Corvette with the C7 and earlier Corvettes. Like the 232 SL, the C8 has a higher sticker price, a completely new interior, drive train, tech, etc,, Objectively, the C8 is a better car than the C7. Earlier today, I parked next to a Pagoda SL. It is one of my favorite cars, but they are distant cousins who happen to both wear the SL badge. I'm just thrilled that MB had the guts to launch a ground up new model that still has a meaty V-8 engine and serious performance. I have about 1500 miles on the car. I drive it like a hooligan, and the 8 MPG demonstrates that I am having a blast. I promised my wife that I would set up a profile for her with her settings. My fear is that once she drives it, I will be relegated to driving our other cars.
People also seem to think that the high-price is new to the SL, when it has always been very very expensive. A 2003 SL 55 back in the day ran $118k (same price as an '03 911 Turbo) and I remember back then thinking it was a lot of money even with all the power it had.
The rear seats are definitely a plus for me, I have grandkids and as well as a Sheltie who likes to ride in the car so for me they are a reason that I am considering an SL (although I will likely buy one once the used market settles a bit more).
Incidentally, I was recently (within two weeks) at a large Mercedes dealer in an affluent area known for SL ownership where a longtime friend/former colleague/longtime sales professional gave me the latest inside story on the R232 SL.
Note: he often used the words "nobody" or "all," which obviously are exaggerations but they mean "almost nobody" or "very few," or "almost all." I paraphrase as follows.
"Nobody is buying these things right now. We had to discount the sh*t out of the remaining 2022s to get them out the door. The $10k advertised incentive was just the beginning. Older people don't want this car. Long-time SL buyers don't like it -- it's too complicated inside and it doesn't feel like an upscale vehicle anymore. It's not as practical for them. Bigger car, less space. The trunk is a joke. I'm not sure who is going to be buying these cars."
I realize we are on a Mercedes forum with lots of R232 SL fans and older SL owners who like the R232 SL. But it's tough out there for the R232 and the dealers trying to sell them. (I do not sympathize with the dealers since they acted terribly when they overcharged buyers for R232 when it first appeared.)
As of the time of this post, there are:
- 242 new 2022s SL on Autotrader
- 460 new 2023s SL on Autotrader
That is a boat load of unsold SLs.
By the way -- a search for new Porsche 911 on Autotrader today returns ZERO results. Zero.
Mercedes won't do this, but they should announce that they will skip 2024 and return in 2025; the 2025 SL should return with a significantly lower price (Mercedes: will you not learn from BMW's 8 Series failure?), some kind of updated styling inside and out, and way more equipment included as standard -- if I'm CEO, I tell the marketing team to dispense with the á la carte nonsense: get rid of nearly all the options and make pretty much everything standard at a killer price. The 63 should become a 63S; the 55 should NOT have less power than a 2003 SL55 (Hello? How about 503 horsepower which is 10 more than the 2003 car).
What you describe strikes me as decisions Porsche would make. Porsche has a good thing going with its product lineup and giving customers what they want. Who cares about price for these cars? If they satisfy, price is secondary. This is part of the issue that people are posting about the R232; a worse car in some respects but with a higher price. Higher price can be tolerated if it’s a better car without question. Evidently there are questions.
If I was in Porsche product planning I would be drooling to put a 928 successor into the market, given MB’s lack of performance and similar story with BMW. Production volume doesn’t matter. Price doesn’t matter. Put an awesome front-mid engined GT into the marketplace with a Porsche crest on the hood and they would be sold out in minutes.
The new 928 could ride on the SWB MSB platform and use the awesome EA825 4.0TT V8, and a V6 hybrid if needed. This would be so easy for VAG. They would want to be confident of model interaction/cannibalism with the sports cars and Continental GT Speed. Again, who cares about production volume, at this price tier no cars are truly high volume compared with a Corolla. It’s about brand equity and profit per vehicle.
I think everyone agrees that MB screwed up with the marketing and launch of the 232 SL. However that should not be confused with the actual car. It is an awesome car. I'm a bit confused with the comparison with the 2003 SL55. While it might have more horse power, it was almost 1 second slower 0-60. There is absolutely no way that the old model had the growl of the 232 SL55. Put the new SL into Sport+ and down shift manually. The deep throated growl and the gunshot like down shift pops tell everyone that this is no stodgy boulevard cruiser. Because of the amount of standard equipment, I think the new SL is a decent value especially since it is an AMG model that is not just a trim package. A similarly equipped Porsche 911 will cost significantly more money. I love all of the tech in the car (I am not in the young demographic). The only feature I wished it had was soft close doors. The back seats come in handy for short trips around town (my daughter was able to sit in the back seat and her husband was in the passenger seat today when we went out to pick up lunch). There is more than enough storage in the trunk for carry on luggage, or ten bags of groceries (based on last night's trip to Kroger's).
The 232 SL and the prior generations are fundamentally different cars. It is like comparing the new C8 mid-engine Corvette with the C7 and earlier Corvettes. Like the 232 SL, the C8 has a higher sticker price, a completely new interior, drive train, tech, etc,, Objectively, the C8 is a better car than the C7. Earlier today, I parked next to a Pagoda SL. It is one of my favorite cars, but they are distant cousins who happen to both wear the SL badge. I'm just thrilled that MB had the guts to launch a ground up new model that still has a meaty V-8 engine and serious performance. I have about 1500 miles on the car. I drive it like a hooligan, and the 8 MPG demonstrates that I am having a blast. I promised my wife that I would set up a profile for her with her settings. My fear is that once she drives it, I will be relegated to driving our other cars.
I can’t disagree with what you’ve said except for one thing—
The horsepower figure.
If you can give me an example of a fixed model designation of a later car in a newer generation of that model having LESS horsepower than the model designation of a previous car — I would be fascinated. (Sometimes horsepower goes down slightly within a model generation due to unexpected emissions compliance; 2022 Mustang Mach 1 comes to mind — it was 5 horsepower less due to unexpected emissions compliance. But not a planned horsepower change with a newly designed model generation).
It’s just not how we do things in the performance car world. M3, M5, etc, Carrera/S, GT3, E63/S, S500, S4, S6, etc etc etc into perpetuity — never is a car given the same model designation with less power than the car with the same model designation from the past — and 19 years in the past? That’s ridiculous.
Hands down the R232 SL55 should have more horsepower than any SL55 that ever came before it. That’s a principle as close to a necessity as anything. They risk unraveling the fabric of the universe when power output is reduced years down the road yet the vehicle is given the same name. It’s plain dumb.
Agree. Porsche does this also. With facelifts and platform changes, base gets S power, S gets GTS power and so on. This is happening right now with the Cayenne 9Y0.1 --> .2 facelift.
I can’t disagree with what you’ve said except for one thing—
The horsepower figure.
If you can give me an example of a fixed model designation of a later car in a newer generation of that model having LESS horsepower than the model designation of a previous car — I would be fascinated. (Sometimes horsepower goes down slightly within a model generation due to unexpected emissions compliance; 2022 Mustang Mach 1 comes to mind — it was 5 horsepower less due to unexpected emissions compliance. But not a planned horsepower change with a newly designed model generation).
It’s just not how we do things in the performance car world. M3, M5, etc, Carrera/S, GT3, E63/S, S500, S4, S6, etc etc etc into perpetuity — never is a car given the same model designation with less power than the car with the same model designation from the past — and 19 years in the past? That’s ridiculous.
Hands down the R232 SL55 should have more horsepower than any SL55 that ever came before it. That’s a principle as close to a necessity as anything. They risk unraveling the fabric of the universe when power output is reduced years down the road yet the vehicle is given the same name. It’s plain dumb.
So all would be right with the universe if they had called the new car SL53 instead?
PFL205.064 with M276.823 (Oil pump solenoid defeated)
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee
So all would be right with the universe if they had called the new car SL53 instead?
That is (sort of) reserved for the M256 though...
Honestly, it is just naming, SL 55 used to mean 5.5L, now it is all marketing, it doesn't even matter.
I can’t disagree with what you’ve said except for one thing—
The horsepower figure.
It’s just not how we do things in the performance car world.(...) S6, etc etc etc into perpetuity — never is a car given the same model designation with less power than the car with the same model designation from the past — and 19 years in the past? That’s ridiculous.
Must I remind you
2018 Audi S6 (C7). 4.0 V8TT. 450hp
2020 Audi S6 (C8). 2.9 V6TT. 444hp
Haha. Not quite. We are talking difference in horsepower measurement. That’s Euro measurement 450 PS versus US-UK measurement 444 bhp.
Huh, you're right, both make 450PS. I'm intrigued why all the major car journalist outlets reported the C7.5 in PS and the C8 in bhp. All the news when the car came out was "less power and worse engine then the last generation!!!". I didn't mind because I prefer the V6 and it's plenty of power for me. I wonder if it was because of the non US market diesel S6 that they were reporting the slwer and less powerful C8 vs C7.5
I'm not sure I would call an average of two cars per dealer a "boat load," but to each their own.
Averaging across all US dealers is a spurious analysis (just as using “average” in most cases is an inferior way of using statistics to tell a story). Many dealers have 3+ and 5+ cars while the bulk of the dealers have 1 or none. The point is — these aren’t C-classes.
It sounds reasonable to me that a dealer would want 3-5 convertibles in their inventory in peak convertible season.
Glad you thank so — talk to the people who pay interest on floor planning these things. Everyone knows the car business for high-end vehicles slows in June-August and furthermore this is supposed to be a hot car. I’ve already said there are zero 911s showing in inventory (many people on these forums have called the SL a 911 comparable or fighter).
After my 1K break-in, I can say that my M8 Competition was a little faster also with less turbo lag. The M8's 0-60 of 2.5 seconds and the 1/4 mile at 10.7/129 is pretty bold. The upcoming hybrid SL63 should fix this.
The SL63 sounds much better due to the generally muffled sound that the M8 had. However, the SL63 would kill the M8 on anything other than a straight line. The active suspension is amazing as well as the active aero, but being 6" shorter and a few hundred pounds lighter makes a huge difference too, It corners better than any car I have had, even the Z06.
I did the same came from the M8 conv to the SL and the M8 is just a monster I do feel the difference and the SL is just slower also the BMW M8 a way better gear box but other than that this car with a Tune should be as much or more fun than the M* pretty happy with the car so far.
Everyone knows the car business slows in June-August and furthermore this is supposed to be a hot car.
Perhaps overall, but I think you would find convertibles do not follow this trend.
Originally Posted by 348SStb
I’ve already said there are zero 911s showing in inventory (many people on these forums have called the SL a 911 comparable or fighter).
Sounds like more of a critique of Porsche's sales and volume planning than a positive. Clearly they are leaving profits on the table by lacking adequate inventory on dealer lots.
Perhaps overall, but I think you would find convertibles do not follow this trend.
Sounds like more of a critique of Porsche's sales and volume planning than a positive. Clearly they are leaving profits on the table by lacking adequate inventory on dealer lots.
Clearly, your analysis needs revision. You seem to make your points from the perspective of a vacuum by using blind logic as a basis for your conclusions instead of using the real world as the basis. Porsche is by far the most profitable and successful car company in the world. How you don’t know that is beyond my imagination. If you do know that, I’m confounded that you’d critique their profit strategy. Are we going to start critiquing Apple’s profit strategy too now? Did you ever imagine that profit alone is not the sole motivator of some people or companies?
Your logic:
(1) If there’s a lack of inventory on dealer lots, the manufacturer must be leaving profits on the table.
(2) If profits are being left on the table, the company is not doing things correctly.
Of course, these constitute pure conjecture on your part. You fuel additional conclusions using spurious analysis to drive your logic.
The Porsche factory is currently operating 24 hours per day without stoppage. Porsche has carefully mastered the art of maintaining demand, not overproducing, and not turning the Porsche brand into — well, Mercedes.
Clearly, your analysis needs revision. You seem to make your points from the perspective of a vacuum by using blind logic as a basis for your conclusions instead of using the real world as the basis. Porsche is by far the most profitable and successful car company in the world. How you don’t know that is beyond my imagination. If you do know that, I’m confounded that you’d critique their profit strategy. Are we going to start critiquing Apple’s profit strategy too now? Did you ever imagine that profit alone is not the sole motivator of some people or companies?
Your logic:
(1) If there’s a lack of inventory on dealer lots, the manufacturer must be leaving profits on the table.
(2) If profits are being left on the table, the company is not doing things correctly.
Of course, these constitute pure conjecture on your part. You fuel additional conclusions using spurious analysis to drive your logic.
The Porsche factory is currently operating 24 hours per day without stoppage. Porsche has carefully mastered the art of maintaining demand, not overproducing, and not turning the Porsche brand into — well, Mercedes.
You clearly have very strongly held opinions, and do not respect my opinions. I can see that continuing this conversation will not be productive. Have a great day!
Perhaps overall, but I think you would find convertibles do not follow this trend.
Sounds like more of a critique of Porsche's sales and volume planning than a positive. Clearly they are leaving profits on the table by lacking adequate inventory on dealer lots.
The critique of Porsche’s sales and volume planning is: pure genius.
Porsche publicly has stated they seek to deliver one fewer car than the market demands. This means scarcity prevails and price remains high. Business brilliance. Pure genius.
Meanwhile inventory and discounts are building at the clown show that MB has become.
The critique of Porsche’s sales and volume planning is: pure genius.
Porsche publicly has stated they seek to deliver one fewer car than the market demands. This means scarcity prevails and price remains high. Business brilliance. Pure genius.
Meanwhile inventory and discounts are building at the clown show that MB has become.
Sure, whatever you say. You win, I lose, shame on me. Have a great day!
PFL205.064 with M276.823 (Oil pump solenoid defeated)
Originally Posted by chassis
The critique of Porsche’s sales and volume planning is: pure genius.
Porsche publicly has stated they seek to deliver one fewer car than the market demands. This means scarcity prevails and price remains high. Business brilliance. Pure genius.
Meanwhile inventory and discounts are building at the clown show that MB has become.
FWIW, from what I read, other than too many models by MB, MB was dropping the entry level models around the world and introducing agency pricing model in certain countries like Australia they care about profit per sale over quantity now, hopefully that means the brand goes back upmarket and also results in higher quality products than before. Can't forget about them introducing Mythos an ultra luxury brand on top of the extra luxury brand Maybach.
2022 SL55 AMG Roadster; 2024 Land Rover P400 Defender 110; 2020 Porsche Macan S; 2023 Audi Q5
While I am clearly not an expert in automotive marketing, it seems to me that the biggest mistake made by MB was preferentially delivering the SL63 which, in my opinion, is nowhere near worth the premium charged over the SL55. 40K for additional HP felt only at speeds over 80 mph or so (according to those on this forum who have driven both) seems crazy.
There is a lot of criticism on this forum from those who own or have owned prior generation SL cars. I'm not sure what drives it beyond "they changed the car and I don't like it." There are several like me who would never have even considered recent generation SLs. Whether or not this car finds its niche is yet to be determined. In my case, I traded out of my 2022 911 Carrera S cab and am very happy I did so.
While I am clearly not an expert in automotive marketing, it seems to me that the biggest mistake made by MB was preferentially delivering the SL63 which, in my opinion, is nowhere near worth the premium charged over the SL55. 40K for additional HP felt only at speeds over 80 mph or so (according to those on this forum who have driven both) seems crazy.
There is a lot of criticism on this forum from those who own or have owned prior generation SL cars. I'm not sure what drives it beyond "they changed the car and I don't like it." There are several like me who would never have even considered recent generation SLs. Whether or not this car finds its niche is yet to be determined. In my case, I traded out of my 2022 911 Carrera S cab and am very happy I did so.
What do you like better about the SL than the 992 Carrera S cab?
06-18-2023, 11:45 AM
