348SStb

I predict the R232 SL63 will NOT be a big seller and will amount to a significant failure for Mercedes-Benz.

The SL55 may fare better, but it still carries the overall disappointment of the R232. Mercedes went downmarket with the R232 while increasing the prices.

I hope nobody on this forum will choose to pay a nickel over MSRP.

mkraft3003

Th SL was never a big seller to begin with. I think I saw that 13k was a high number in the 2000s and that dropped to 1300 at the end of the run. The AMG bersion was a fraction of those. With that being said, I completely agree with you. The SL63 is going to be a tough sell. You are approaching Bentley (230k) and Ferrari Portofino ($230) pricing. I’m still waiting for mine to arrive before making a decision. The dealer is fine with me passing on it or giving my allocation to someone else if I don’t end up buying it (they also have a list and will give it to the next person but will leave it up to me).

348SStb

Interesting. Hope it works out for you either way.

I agree with most of what you have said, but I must point out the R230 SL was a YUGE seller and so was its SL55 variant. Big time sales. And the R129 and R107 before it were big time sellers.

There are so many problem areas with the R232 SL — I don’t want to hijack the thread and go into them, as I’ve detailed those on other threads. Apparently Mercedes didn’t learn from BMW’s 8 Series debacle. In a nutshell — these days, if you are going to play in Porsche’s sand box, you’d better be as good as them or better at what you do. The R232 SL does not do a single thing better than a 911 except for the way its seats provide massages.

I think Mercedes has the ability to build a unique car that’s as good or better than the 911 in many ways. Actually, they’ve done so. I call it the R231 AMG SL63, which I’m proud to own. Having done many road trips in it, I’d take that car all day every day over a 991 or 992 911 Turbo, cars which I’ve had access to as a result of family members owning all sorts of different cars. Most people don’t agree with me, but then again most people haven’t owned an R231 concurrent with various 911s and taken the same cars on long canyon-carving and highway road trips.

If I were on the board at Mercedes, I would’ve suggested another comprehensive facelift of the R231 to arrive at the R232:
Re-do the front and give it a Panamericana grille; give it the 4-liter V8 and 9-speed transmission; re-do the rear end and make it look SPECIAL and not bland; update the interior and infotainment without complicating things to the point of putting off older folks; give it rear-axle steering; prepare variants for E-ABC suspension as well as electrified anti-roll bars; all while making the car lighter. The R232 had a breakthrough lightweight chassis and lightweight hardtop, and it would’ve been a great place from which to build a real 911 fighter.

The R231 is hands down the best high-speed roadster the auto industry has ever seen. Driving at 100+ and especially 130+ mph down the highway with the top down is a piece of cake for the R231. Not so with any 911. I just wish Mercedes had improved on the excellence they already had. What a car it could’ve been at 182 inches and 3900 pounds.

Omega803

You may be right about 911 Porsche v. R232 Mercedes’ but not sure how you reach that conclusion without having driven the latter.

348SStb

Pretty easily.
- 185”
- 4300+ lbs
- no ABC to offset the laws of physics

You don’t agree?

js_cls

The SL has never been more athletic than the 911, one is sports car, the other is a GT car, what matters most is that the SL has finally regained a sense of dynamism with the new model, the R232 has already been reviewed highly and plenty favorable in comparison to the R231.

348SStb

Nobody has ever compared the R232 directly with the R231 SL63. Ever. It’s all generalization and fluff. No one has ever specifically compared the handling characteristics or lap times. No one has ever specifically named one thing the R232 does better than the R231 SL63 from a performance standpoint besides straight line acceleration, and no tester ever drove them back to back. In the history profession they call this attitude “presentism.” Glorify the present and denigrate the past without providing real data.

Would you bet the R232 would post a faster Nurburgring lap time than the R231 SL63? That’s a bet I wouldn’t want to make.

Mercedes always called the R231 a sports car. Read the official Mercedes press materials and literature. “Sports car.” They had good reason to. I can say for sure the SL63 is a sports car. I’ve been blessed to own just about every type of sports car and brand, and I can say the SL63 is a sports car. The Maserati GranTurismo is a GT. The BMW 8 Series is a GT. The E-class coupe is a GT. I suspect the R232 is a GT. The R231 SL63 is heavy but not obscenely heavy - it was some 200 pounds lighter than it’s predecessor. The top is extremely lightweight. ABC makes a huge difference. It’s not Boxster/Cayman athletic, but it’s athletic. Come drive mine in the mountains of Western NC and see what I mean. The R231 SL63 can do maybe 90-95% of what a 911 can do on street roads (not on the track) and 125% on roads that allow the accumulation of speed with gentler curves due to the massively powerful and torque monster that is the 5.5 V8 with 577bhp and 664 ft-lbs of torque. I’ve owned many 911s including GTS and GT3 variants, so I do not say this lightly or from a standpoint of conjecture.

When a car grows in length and weight while dispensing with a physics-defying body control suspension that’s fully active (not just reactive) using the best suspension technology the world has ever seen, I don’t think it possibly could be more athletic, nimble, or fun to drive.

Few among us will be able to verify, as Mercedes doesn’t bother to put test drive vehicles in their dealerships. Ferrari sent test-vehicle Portofino Ms around the country for drivers to try without any obligation. Mercedes in its arrogance thinks that people are automatically going to love this SL without ever having driven one. Not me. If a real buyer can test drive just about any McLaren he wants, just about any Aston Martin he wants, and most Ferraris, for example, I’m not going to accept the idea that there’s no R232 to test. That’s a disgrace.

Hope I’m wrong about all of this. But I just don’t think the SL went in the proper direction by becoming larger, heavier, and being fitted with a fabric top, which darkens the cabin, obscures visibility, and makes the car like every other fabric-top convertible; and since a multitude of folks agree with me given the commentary I’ve read on these forums, I wish the brass at Mercedes had implemented the perspective we’ve been communicating rather than the path they chose so that the SL would improve as a sports car, not digress to a GT car.

Finally, I’ve challenged auto journalists directly by posting messages on R232 review article pages to no avail; I’ve done the little I could do, and I haven’t seen much reaction to the idea that nobody has ever compared the R232 with the R231 specifically — point by point, feature by feature, backed up with sound analysis with extensive driving experience and comparison to many vehicles as a context as well as hard data excluding 0-60 times and quarter-mile times, which are almost just about useless to someone who enjoys the drive — I could buy a Dodge Demon or a Tesla Plaid if I wanted to be the king of the quarter mile, but a Dodge Demon would be the last car anybody with taste would choose for a day or week on canyon roads.

js_cls

Yes I would, its design is a whole 10-years newer, meaning newer tire and suspension technology, as well as performance which would help create a better time on the ring. I can't think of a recent new car that has an inferior ring time compared to its predecessor. There is no official R231 ring time to compare to, but a newer car will most likely always perform better, even with more weight, as its all about how the weight is managed, the new M3 is a prime example of this.

The 2019 SL63 was still 4,123lbs. Mercedes also calls the R232 a sports car as well in their materials. They can call them both sports cars as much as they please, but in reality they are certainly closer to gran tourers than the former to help fit their desired market/audience. Hell even the Sport-Leicht naming hasn't truly applied to the car since the Gullwing days. The W113 SL transitioned the SL into what we know it now as, a more gran-tourer focused machine with both athletic handling and everyday comfort compared to the race car derived 300SL Sports Car or even the current AMG GT Series.

The new SL features AMG Active Ride Control as well as Hydraulic Active Anti-Roll Stabilization, 2.5 Degree Rear-Wheel Steering, and a new Five-Link Suspension setup up front, I have no doubt these pieces of technology will help make the SL feel smaller than its stated dimensions and keep it cornering flat, creating an athletic and nimble drive, which has been unanimously praised by the press which you can see in the reviews thread. Our own forum member @CincyMBGuy who has experience behind both the R231 and R232 SL's has had nothing but positive remarks regarding the new SL in comparison to the old one.

I am confused by this statement. The R232 has not been released yet, so of course it is not available to test drive. When it arrives at dealers, customers will be able to then drive the car, its not like people are being forced to drive this car before seeing it.

I hope you're wrong too, because you are just assuming that since the new SL has attributes that you don't like, that it will be dynamically inferior, luckily the reviews and opinions that we have so far from those who have driven the car seem to very positive.

Alan Smithee

Put your bias aside and tell us about the commercial success of the R231...

Germancar1

Thank you for this response. The R231 was never a sports car that is laughable. I too would bet that the new SL63 handles better than the previous one. Why would it not? What a crazy out of touch post you responded to.

M

348SStb

My post is not out of touch. AMG Ride control and roll stabilization are suspension technologies inferior to ABC. That’s pretty much as close to fact as an assertion can be. Mercedes stopped offering ABC because the cosmopolitan buyer - which is now the principal Mercedes consumer - does not appreciate ABC and isn’t willing to pay for it. So they just pocket the money anyway and offer some fluffed substitute. I’ve owned recent cars with the roll stabilization feature and it just plain isn’t even close to ABC. It starts working once roll has already happened. ABC keeps the body completely poised longitudinally as well (dove and squat during intense braking and acceleration maneuvers), which roll stabilization cannot do. A smaller and lighter AMG SL63 with ABC is likely not going to be out-handled by a longer and heavier car without it. We aren’t comparing cars from 2002 to 2012 here. We are comparing from 2013 to 2022, and the law of diminishing returns is at play. We don’t have any hard data or direct comparisons between R231 and R232 - we simply have opinions of excited journalists who are paid to generate positive buzz as well as other folks who haven’t directly compared the two. I am talking only AMG R231 to AMG R232 (not base models).

And the R231 SL63 is a sports car. I’ll keep saying it. Have you owned one? If yes, have you ever taken it on a road trip? Have you ever owned a 911 Cabriolet also? How about a Boxster? How about a Ferrari California/Portofino? Maybe a DB9/DB11 Volante? Maybe a BMW Z4? These are all sports cars, and the R231 can be compared against those and not be at the bottom of the pile in the majority of categories.

Sorry that my opinion is not the popular one or the majority one, but it’s not an opinion based on conjecture. So please don’t insult. I’ve tested and owned all kinds of sports cars at the limit and I can say the R231 SL63 can do just about everything a sports car driver could ask of it at the limit (on street pavement). It doesn’t behave like a 4100-pound car at the limit (thanks to ABC and torque-vectoring brake/ESP Dynamic Cornering Assist), and it is very athletic (I’d give it a 7-7.9 of 10) even though it’s not a 9/10 or a 10/10 athletic.

348SStb

You never heard of a manufacturer sending a pre-production test drive vehicle (or several) around the country for test drives?

Yea- Mercedes doesn’t do that. And the bad habits that have been ingrained into the mindsets of folks at arrogant dealers (that’s most luxury dealers across the US) will preclude test drives of R232s sitting on showroom floors with the wonderful over-MSRP markups. Most Mercedes dealers won’t be allowing test drives, and I hope every “no” is met with a “See you later, then” response from a prospective buyer.

Alan Smithee

Without having driven an R232, that is precisely what it is.

348SStb

My opinion about the R231 being a sports car.

The entire paragraph which has the word conjecture in it discusses the R231 AMG SL63.

Surprised you didn’t catch that.

Anyway this thread isn’t about me. Going to step aside now.

Alan Smithee

^ Your rant has been all over the place...it's hard to keep up. But, no, I did not consider a 4,100lb V8 roadster to be a sports car in 2013. I don't think anybody else did, either...doesn't make it a bad car. Nor do I consider the R232 a sports car, regardless of what MB's marketing department says.

Germancar1

I don't have to own one when I've driven one a few times. The R231 was not a sports car. That's just ridiculous. A 911 or Boxster will eat a R231 SL alive on a twisty road. Sorry you just don't know what you're talking about and ham fisting an a R231 SL into doing sports car maneuvers does not make it a sports car. Any car can do whatever on the street, but at the track is where the previous SL completely falls apart and comparing it to a 911 or Boxster is just laughable. Not a single professional driver would agree with your extremely biased assessment. I mean this thing you have against the new SL is just ridiculous man and it's based on much of nothing. You don't know what this new SL will drive or handle like yet, but then again you think a 4K pound SL is "sports car". So there's that.

M

348SStb

Fyi -

I did not start this thread- my comments were in another thread and they were moved along with others into a new thread.

I wasn’t ranting, so I don’t appreciate the title.

I do not have anything additional to add, and I’d appreciate it if those who disagree with me would be cordial about it or just let this thread die.

baltika

After having driven the SL55 for about 30 min and having set in it, walk around and examining every inch of its details for another 60 I came to a conclusion …

That for all intends and purposes it’s a very fine car that is at par with the R231.

It has hot sexy looks, it has an eye candy cockpit with the good blend or techno and traditional materials, the quilted seats would make its look better but it’s good enough, it corners flat enough to feel at no disadvantage to the outgoing ABC, it has an unmistakable AMG engine, exhaust and torque, it is quite enough with the top down even though there is that wind noise from where the top meets the glass of the frameless door but the 231 is not the quietest of cars either at speed it just has a different acoustic composition to its cabin noise, it’s trunk has awkward shape but deep enough for a couple of soft bags, it’s transmission is smooth most of the time and it’s a step up from the 7 speed multi-clutch unit, its ride has a degree more comfort, the seats are great, everything falls into hand, it may not feel special enough for some but in reality it’s a special car with pedigree. They did not mess it up completely by chopping off the folding hard top. It was too expensive to keep. It makes up in other areas which are valued by the intended clientele such as the AWD and rear seats to drop small children off on the way to the office. This way it is more versatile.

I own the 2019 63, I always wanted to have one since I was a kid and even though I could afford one a long time ago I did not because the car is made up of compromises and its price tags is the biggest of them all. I bought my car when I knew I was getting a very good deal. It is important to tell here what was it to convey a cohesive story. I paid to a MB dealer $130k for a new never titled no mileage car in late 2020. It had the right color combination and the options list that made it right for me. I got me a good deal and that is what in big part made me love the car even more.

The new SL the way it’s priced and marked up is not a good deal and when it changes in a long time towards the end of its production cycle sometime after 2030 when prices start to soften to a point when you can get a 20% off MSRP discount then I would be in the position to say if I like the 232 enough to own one.

That is to me when it would be the apples to apples comparison. Until then the new SL is a bad deal because it is not 30% better car it’s about the same in terms of comfort, design and pedigree. Just somehow way more expensive. And I don’t care about inflation because I don’t automatically make 8.5% more money year over year.

JohnGigi

After my 1K break-in, I can say that my M8 Competition was a little faster also with less turbo lag. The M8's 0-60 of 2.5 seconds and the 1/4 mile at 10.7/129 is pretty bold. The upcoming hybrid SL63 should fix this.

The SL63 sounds much better due to the generally muffled sound that the M8 had. However, the SL63 would kill the M8 on anything other than a straight line. The active suspension is amazing as well as the active aero, but being 6" shorter and a few hundred pounds lighter makes a huge difference too, It corners better than any car I have had, even the Z06.

js_cls

Thanks for the driving impressions and comparison. The SL is a bit slower, but I'd take the M177 engine any day of the BMW S63 V8, BMW just can't get a good exhaust out of their V8's anymore, the M177 has more character and drama to it which makes it more exciting imo.

Wolfman

It's great to hear what AMG has done with the suspension. I personally like both the S63 TU engine and the M177/M178. Both great engines. AMG definitely owns the drama and exhaust but I think BMW has the better transmission pairing, at least in the case of the MCT.

drgek

I have owned 4 different 911 Cabriolets (the last a 2022 992 Carrera S) as well as a Turbo and two different Targas. I have owned 3 Aston Martins: a DB7 Vantage Volante, a V8 Vantage Roadster, and a Virage Volante (a DB9 variant). I’ve owned 7 Ferraris (a 355 Spider, 360 Modena, 430 Spider, 2 different 550s, a 599, and a Portofino). I also owned a Lamborghini Diablo SV and a Jaguar F-Type. Most of those cars were purchased new. I tracked nearly all of them and took several on 1000-1500 mile rallies. Until the new SLs came out I never had any desire to own a two door Mercedes. I had significant seat time in a prior generation (whichever came before the 231) SL 65 and didn’t like it at all.

I personally find this “sports car vs GT” distinction tiresome as it’s all a matter of conjecture without any clear defining characteristics (having said that, nobody would ever call a DB9 or a DB11 a sports car.) What I can say is that for the vast majority of the driving I do my R232 SL55 is as enjoyable as any of the cars I have owned.

kcirm

Man stop it. You are not the target market and that's all there is to it. No need to get bitter and over it, MB still has plenty of alternatives. It's okay that Mercedes feels its not profitable to cater to certain needs anymore and shifted their strategy. That's what businesses do. Times change, people change, businesses change.

Whether it's previous owners or cross shoppers of the competition of the R323 (911, Bentley GT, Jaguar F Type, M8, etc.) we've all been able to find some value in the SL. That's what matters to Mercedes. They've decided to target a spot in the market that had no answers for.

The 911 is fast, but the interior is crab
The m8 is quick, but it feels like a boat
The Bentley is luxurious, but it lacks dynamicsness
The Lexus is a smooth GT, but lacks excitement
The Jaguar if exciting, but it lacks quality
The SL is the 2nd best in any of these categories and 1st in some. Breath of ability is a real thing. It's a great daily driver for its target market.

348SStb

Target market? What target market?

Mercedes hugely miscalculated the market and so did the people who paid $50k over MSRP for these things. Even though many of them were stupid to do so, I still feel bad for them. Price collusion between dealers along with other tomfoolery resulted in those heinous markups. We see it on virtually all new cars in the US today.

We aren’t even though the first model year and the R232 SL is already being offered without any effort at $10k under MSRP; and with hundreds of them sitting around, it takes very much more than that to make it disappear from the lot. This is bad for Mercedes, for the dealers, and for owners.

We can debate all year long about whether the car is a good design. What we don’t need to debate is the following:
(1) Nice job, Mercedes, first sending the car to dealer lots in July 2022 as a 2022 model. Nice one. Real smart.
(2) The price of the SL63 is just way too high. The market results are proving that.
(3) Dealers don’t want these SLs anywhere near their lots now that they’ve learned how bad of a seller it is.
(4) Mercedes learned nothing from BMW’s experience with the 8 Series — and the 8 Series was saved by the post-Covid Seller’s Market, something by which the R232 isn’t going to be saved.

The 2022 model year experience has done irreparable damage to the model. The only way Mercedes could fix it is to skip model year 2023 and lower the price for 2024 with some improvements and a MAJOR cut in production. But they are too arrogant to do that. And they won’t. And so some people are going to obtain some very fine deals on SLs at $40k under MSRP new.

js_cls

The R231 was a slow seller too, and from the various posts on this forum, it does appear that MB has succeeded in capturing some 911 and GT buyers. Time to face the music, the old SL is dead and is not coming back.