SL/R232: New GT
06-29-2024, 11:38 AM
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06-29-2024, 12:26 PM
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The SL hasn’t deserved a super light title in decades, so this is nothing new. And the R231 was not used as a blueprint for the next SL, the AMG GT Roadster was.
The shocker however is the absolute weight gain of these cars (the SL or GT) without anything really to account for. 800 lbs.
I agree with the Throttle House GT Video.
AWD is the only relevant feature set and that should add less than 200 lbs. The weight of rear seats should be made up by the using the soft top vs the hardtop.
But unfortunately these cars are build with the standard AMG parts bin instead of the model specific ones in the prior models (such as transaxle, DCT) that actually dropped the prior AMG’s into 911 turbo weight territory.
I love the look of the new GT but there is no reason why they made it a porker like the M8.
Insert rant about BMW here
How can they produce a new M5 that not only weights a 1000lbs more than the predecessor but is slower. 5400 lbs! for a performance sedan.
A 1200hp EV’s weighs less than that…
The shocker however is the absolute weight gain of these cars (the SL or GT) without anything really to account for. 800 lbs.
I agree with the Throttle House GT Video.
AWD is the only relevant feature set and that should add less than 200 lbs. The weight of rear seats should be made up by the using the soft top vs the hardtop.
But unfortunately these cars are build with the standard AMG parts bin instead of the model specific ones in the prior models (such as transaxle, DCT) that actually dropped the prior AMG’s into 911 turbo weight territory.
I love the look of the new GT but there is no reason why they made it a porker like the M8.
Insert rant about BMW here
How can they produce a new M5 that not only weights a 1000lbs more than the predecessor but is slower. 5400 lbs! for a performance sedan.A 1200hp EV’s weighs less than that…
06-29-2024, 12:35 PM
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2021 AMG E63s Wagon
The SL hasn’t deserved a super light title in decades, so this is nothing new. And the R231 was not used as a blueprint for the next SL, the AMG GT Roadster was.
The shocker however is the absolute weight gain of these cars (the SL or GT) without anything really to account for. 800 lbs.
I agree with the Throttle House GT Video.
AWD is the only relevant feature set and that should add less than 200 lbs. The weight of rear seats should be made up by the using the soft top vs the hardtop.
But unfortunately these cars are build with the standard AMG parts bin instead of the model specific ones in the prior models (such as transaxle, DCT) that actually dropped the prior AMG’s into 911 turbo weight territory.
I love the look of the new GT but there is no reason why they made it a porker like the M8.
Insert rant about BMW here How can they produce a new M5 that not only weights a 1000lbs more than the predecessor but is slower. 5400 lbs! for a performance sedan.
A 1200hp EV’s weighs less than that…
The shocker however is the absolute weight gain of these cars (the SL or GT) without anything really to account for. 800 lbs.
I agree with the Throttle House GT Video.
AWD is the only relevant feature set and that should add less than 200 lbs. The weight of rear seats should be made up by the using the soft top vs the hardtop.
But unfortunately these cars are build with the standard AMG parts bin instead of the model specific ones in the prior models (such as transaxle, DCT) that actually dropped the prior AMG’s into 911 turbo weight territory.
I love the look of the new GT but there is no reason why they made it a porker like the M8.
Insert rant about BMW here
How can they produce a new M5 that not only weights a 1000lbs more than the predecessor but is slower. 5400 lbs! for a performance sedan.A 1200hp EV’s weighs less than that…
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drgek (06-30-2024)
06-30-2024, 04:46 AM
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
The GT rear seat if selected should only add 30 lbs or so. AMG is simply using the standard parts they use in their sedans without attempting to lighten the components for a sports coupe.
The old one was just so light and agile. Our GTC roadster also sported rear wheel steering with the low weight.
The weight gain can be forgiven for the SL but not for the GT. That car was an actual 911 competitor on the track.
Last edited by Wolfman; 06-30-2024 at 04:54 AM.
06-30-2024, 09:02 AM
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PFL205.064 with M276.823 (Oil pump solenoid defeated)
So I finally watched the video (summing up the things that we all know already differences with the new and old includes
:
4MATIC+ vs RWD
Electric steering vs Hydraulic Steering
no more dry sump
no more front-mid engine layout
no more transaxle design
centre of gravity
Substantial increase in weight
sounds worse (well, that was a given)
It is now a real Grand Tourer instead of the previous generation which was more like a sports car
The nice long hood is gone
Obvious difference in technology inside-out
What else am I missing?
:4MATIC+ vs RWD
Electric steering vs Hydraulic Steering
no more dry sump
no more front-mid engine layout
no more transaxle design
centre of gravity
Substantial increase in weight
sounds worse (well, that was a given)
It is now a real Grand Tourer instead of the previous generation which was more like a sports car
The nice long hood is gone
Obvious difference in technology inside-out
What else am I missing?
06-30-2024, 10:01 AM
#33
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
So I finally watched the video (summing up the things that we all know already differences with the new and old includes:
4MATIC+ vs RWD
Electric steering vs Hydraulic Steering
no more dry sump
no more front-mid engine layout
no more transaxle design
centre of gravity
Substantial increase in weight
sounds worse (well, that was a given)
It is now a real Grand Tourer instead of the previous generation which was more like a sports car
The nice long hood is gone
Obvious difference in technology inside-out
What else am I missing?
:4MATIC+ vs RWD
Electric steering vs Hydraulic Steering
no more dry sump
no more front-mid engine layout
no more transaxle design
centre of gravity
Substantial increase in weight
sounds worse (well, that was a given)
It is now a real Grand Tourer instead of the previous generation which was more like a sports car
The nice long hood is gone
Obvious difference in technology inside-out
What else am I missing?
The prior version also had many options included at the GT C and up level. Now you pay for every option
06-30-2024, 10:37 AM
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06-30-2024, 10:45 AM
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06-30-2024, 05:10 PM
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But it’s not the creature comforts that added the weight. The prior GT had a digital dash and a screen (albeit smaller). The performance seats are the same too. Just no Lightshow. Wish it had the HUD.
The GT rear seat if selected should only add 30 lbs or so. AMG is simply using the standard parts they use in their sedans without attempting to lighten the components for a sports coupe.
The old one was just so light and agile. Our GTC roadster also sported rear wheel steering with the low weight.
The weight gain can be forgiven for the SL but not for the GT. That car was an actual 911 competitor on the track.
The GT rear seat if selected should only add 30 lbs or so. AMG is simply using the standard parts they use in their sedans without attempting to lighten the components for a sports coupe.
The old one was just so light and agile. Our GTC roadster also sported rear wheel steering with the low weight.
The weight gain can be forgiven for the SL but not for the GT. That car was an actual 911 competitor on the track.
The 911 has gained weight/cc's since the early 90's as their customers want more cc's
Perhaps mb should offer a lightweight/stripped down version?
Last edited by RJC; 06-30-2024 at 05:16 PM.
06-30-2024, 07:19 PM
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07-01-2024, 09:29 AM
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07-01-2024, 11:39 AM
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
To me creature comforts also include things like better/more sound insulation, thicker glass, and more comfort-based options ie massaging seats etc.
The 911 has gained weight/cc's since the early 90's as their customers want more cc's
Perhaps mb should offer a lightweight/stripped down version?
The 911 has gained weight/cc's since the early 90's as their customers want more cc's
Perhaps mb should offer a lightweight/stripped down version?
The new GT weighs 800 lbs more in a single generation without any tangible power gains. 577HP in the new GT vs 550HP in our GTC.
Point is that the creature comforts don't account for much weight. The new car is nowhere as insulated as the M8 (which is good). My complaints are neither the looks or AWD but weight gain without a measurable benefit.
The car should be pushing 650-750hp with that weight and the engine can easily deliver that without another 800 lbs for the e-Performance add-ons.
It will be interesting to see how the new GT sells. Mercedes clearly followed the Porsche model and it should be an attractive cross-shop option for 911 buyers. But the old GT models actually sold quite well (much better than the SL's), including outside the US. So they will have to clear a higher bar.
Last edited by Wolfman; 07-01-2024 at 11:45 AM.
07-01-2024, 11:41 AM
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Yes that is true, but them AMG never had a manual transmission I guess if we mention it to AMG engineers they will laugh, the only way to get manual transmission on a modern German performance car (out of the 3 brands) is BMW but only the lower tier vehicles, the 8 series will never offer in manual.
07-02-2024, 01:58 AM
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Agree that the 911 has gained weight, but it isn't quite the same. In 1991, the 964 Turbo was almost 3300 lbs (although the later Turbo S was lighter) and 992 Turbo weighs about 350 lbs more. That's a 30 year span and a power increase from 372hp to 572hp.
The new GT weighs 800 lbs more in a single generation without any tangible power gains. 577HP in the new GT vs 550HP in our GTC.
Point is that the creature comforts don't account for much weight. The new car is nowhere as insulated as the M8 (which is good). My complaints are neither the looks or AWD but weight gain without a measurable benefit.
The car should be pushing 650-750hp with that weight and the engine can easily deliver that without another 800 lbs for the e-Performance add-ons.
It will be interesting to see how the new GT sells. Mercedes clearly followed the Porsche model and it should be an attractive cross-shop option for 911 buyers. But the old GT models actually sold quite well (much better than the SL's), including outside the US. So they will have to clear a higher bar.
The new GT weighs 800 lbs more in a single generation without any tangible power gains. 577HP in the new GT vs 550HP in our GTC.
Point is that the creature comforts don't account for much weight. The new car is nowhere as insulated as the M8 (which is good). My complaints are neither the looks or AWD but weight gain without a measurable benefit.
The car should be pushing 650-750hp with that weight and the engine can easily deliver that without another 800 lbs for the e-Performance add-ons.
It will be interesting to see how the new GT sells. Mercedes clearly followed the Porsche model and it should be an attractive cross-shop option for 911 buyers. But the old GT models actually sold quite well (much better than the SL's), including outside the US. So they will have to clear a higher bar.
Power has essentially gone up exponentially in all those in this class over the same period, but I'd bet todays power is more underrated than in the past.
Personally, I like the 48v mild hybrid assist as it adds power, mpg's, and helps to reduce emissions. Anything that prolongs the life of ICE's I'm good with...the extra power is a great fringe bene.
My dealer has had 3 GT's for a while now that haven't sold, and many high-end items are slowing/not selling...as far as I'm concerned good! Time for prices to come down
Last edited by RJC; 07-02-2024 at 05:53 AM.
07-02-2024, 06:22 AM
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AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Since the early 90's the weight of 911's has increased quite a bit over the years, much but not all of it was due to cc's/options b/c back in the day options were few. Safety, size, also help to add lbs.A '72 911 T weighed in at ~2500 lbs and an '88 ~2600. Comping the GT to a 911 however, is a bit of oranges to apples (no matter how much MB borrowed much of the 911's look), as the 911 really isn't a GT, but a 6 cyl sports car with jump seats and drives like one. Actually 911's were great road racers back in the day and designed for it well.
Power has essentially gone up exponentially in all those in this class over the same period, but I'd bet todays power is more underrated than in the past.
Personally, I like the 48v mild hybrid assist as it adds power, mpg's, and helps to reduce emissions. Anything that prolongs the life of ICE's I'm good with...the extra power is a great fringe bene.
My dealer has had 3 GT's for a while now that haven't sold, and many high-end items are slowing/not selling...as far as I'm concerned good! Time for prices to come down
Power has essentially gone up exponentially in all those in this class over the same period, but I'd bet todays power is more underrated than in the past.
Personally, I like the 48v mild hybrid assist as it adds power, mpg's, and helps to reduce emissions. Anything that prolongs the life of ICE's I'm good with...the extra power is a great fringe bene.
My dealer has had 3 GT's for a while now that haven't sold, and many high-end items are slowing/not selling...as far as I'm concerned good! Time for prices to come down
I agree that the new GT feels more like it than just by name but I still expect that they will be cross-shopped with the 911's. The issue they have to overcome is the traditionally high depreciation which the 911's have been immune to (mostly; minus turbo models).
07-02-2024, 05:14 PM
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I will venture out to say that the prior AMG GT is a direct competitor to a 911. Apples and apples. Same market, similar performance and similar weight. The AMG GTC roadster actually weighs less than a 992 Turbo S cab. These cars are well respected on the track and Porsche could only beat the GT BS on the Nurburgring with Manthey add-ons.
I agree that the new GT feels more like it than just by name but I still expect that they will be cross-shopped with the 911's. The issue they have to overcome is the traditionally high depreciation which the 911's have been immune to (mostly; minus turbo models).
I agree that the new GT feels more like it than just by name but I still expect that they will be cross-shopped with the 911's. The issue they have to overcome is the traditionally high depreciation which the 911's have been immune to (mostly; minus turbo models).
Agree, the depreciation of most AMG vehicles is quite poor and an issue for those that don't lease, while the iconic 911's is quite robust.
I've been driving P-cars/911's since 1982 and have had near every version, they are somewhat special vehicles even today, but the air cooled mostly hand built ones are very special to me-there's really nothing like them - I could kick myself for selling some of the ones I did over the years sigh...
Here's a good article from a few years back 2020 Porsche 911 Carrera vs. 2020 Mercedes-AMG GT Coupe (caranddriver.com)
Last edited by RJC; 07-02-2024 at 05:25 PM.
07-02-2024, 07:52 PM
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True to an extent, but even the old GT is still a front engine V8, auto trans only, so imho it's not quite a-a. Is the GT (previous or current) also quite a bit longer than the 911, or does the GT's long snout make it just look as such?
Agree, the depreciation of most AMG vehicles is quite poor and an issue for those that don't lease, while the iconic 911's is quite robust.
I've been driving P-cars/911's since 1982 and have had near every version, they are somewhat special vehicles even today, but the air cooled mostly hand built ones are very special to me-there's really nothing like them - I could kick myself for selling some of the ones I did over the years sigh...
Here's a good article from a few years back 2020 Porsche 911 Carrera vs. 2020 Mercedes-AMG GT Coupe (caranddriver.com)
Agree, the depreciation of most AMG vehicles is quite poor and an issue for those that don't lease, while the iconic 911's is quite robust.
I've been driving P-cars/911's since 1982 and have had near every version, they are somewhat special vehicles even today, but the air cooled mostly hand built ones are very special to me-there's really nothing like them - I could kick myself for selling some of the ones I did over the years sigh...
Here's a good article from a few years back 2020 Porsche 911 Carrera vs. 2020 Mercedes-AMG GT Coupe (caranddriver.com)
I remember that review but felt that the GT wasn’t a great choice but of course the GTS was already killed off in the US.
The 911 represents a decades long fine tuning of a model while AMG came out with something exceptional but then made big changes after just one iteration.
The 992 is a fantastic car but just another 911 in a sea of 911’s. They sound like crap and miss the rawness that the earlier GT models possess.
But it’s easy to appreciate both.
07-02-2024, 11:36 PM
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The old GT had a front-mid engine and a rear mounted DCT transmission with a weight distribution which should make more sense physically than a rear engine but Porsche has worked magic with that setup over the years.
I remember that review but felt that the GT wasn’t a great choice but of course the GTS was already killed off in the US.
The 911 represents a decades long fine tuning of a model while AMG came out with something exceptional but then made big changes after just one iteration.
The 992 is a fantastic car but just another 911 in a sea of 911’s. They sound like crap and miss the rawness that the earlier GT models possess.
But it’s easy to appreciate both.
I remember that review but felt that the GT wasn’t a great choice but of course the GTS was already killed off in the US.
The 911 represents a decades long fine tuning of a model while AMG came out with something exceptional but then made big changes after just one iteration.
The 992 is a fantastic car but just another 911 in a sea of 911’s. They sound like crap and miss the rawness that the earlier GT models possess.
But it’s easy to appreciate both.
Is the GT longer than the 911 and if so any idea by how much?
07-03-2024, 01:33 AM
#47
The SL hasn’t deserved a super light title in decades, so this is nothing new. And the R231 was not used as a blueprint for the next SL, the AMG GT Roadster was.
The shocker however is the absolute weight gain of these cars (the SL or GT) without anything really to account for. 800 lbs.
I agree with the Throttle House GT Video.
AWD is the only relevant feature set and that should add less than 200 lbs. The weight of rear seats should be made up by the using the soft top vs the hardtop.
But unfortunately these cars are build with the standard AMG parts bin instead of the model specific ones in the prior models (such as transaxle, DCT) that actually dropped the prior AMG’s into 911 turbo weight territory.
I love the look of the new GT but there is no reason why they made it a porker like the M8.
Insert rant about BMW here How can they produce a new M5 that not only weights a 1000lbs more than the predecessor but is slower. 5400 lbs! for a performance sedan.
A 1200hp EV’s weighs less than that…
The shocker however is the absolute weight gain of these cars (the SL or GT) without anything really to account for. 800 lbs.
I agree with the Throttle House GT Video.
AWD is the only relevant feature set and that should add less than 200 lbs. The weight of rear seats should be made up by the using the soft top vs the hardtop.
But unfortunately these cars are build with the standard AMG parts bin instead of the model specific ones in the prior models (such as transaxle, DCT) that actually dropped the prior AMG’s into 911 turbo weight territory.
I love the look of the new GT but there is no reason why they made it a porker like the M8.
Insert rant about BMW here
How can they produce a new M5 that not only weights a 1000lbs more than the predecessor but is slower. 5400 lbs! for a performance sedan.A 1200hp EV’s weighs less than that…
That being said, I do not understand why you all blame the new SL for its weight. Let me write down some numbers from the oficial bmw website:
BMW M4 xdrive cabrio 4306 lbs
BMW M4 coupe 4000 lbs (3969 actually, hehe)
BMW M8 convertible 4295lbs
BMW M8 coupe 4460 lbs
SL63AMG 4321 lbs
GT63 AMG 4343 lbs
07-03-2024, 04:42 AM
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The new M5 is heavy, the new E-class is heavy. The s-class is also really heavy, especially the e-performance one.
That being said, I do not understand why you all blame the new SL for its weight. Let me write down some numbers from the oficial bmw website:
BMW M4 xdrive cabrio 4306 lbs
BMW M4 coupe 4000 lbs (3969 actually, hehe)
BMW M8 convertible 4295lbs
BMW M8 coupe 4460 lbs
SL63AMG 4321 lbs
GT63 AMG 4343 lbs
That being said, I do not understand why you all blame the new SL for its weight. Let me write down some numbers from the oficial bmw website:
BMW M4 xdrive cabrio 4306 lbs
BMW M4 coupe 4000 lbs (3969 actually, hehe)
BMW M8 convertible 4295lbs
BMW M8 coupe 4460 lbs
SL63AMG 4321 lbs
GT63 AMG 4343 lbs
The GT was AMG’s pure sports car platform and there weight does matter.
Weight is less relevant to the SL but both the AMG Roadster and the R231 SL (even with the heavy folding hardtop glass roof) were much lighter than the R232.
The SL63 ePerformance is near 5000lbs though.
With the new M5 weight of 5400lbs., the M8 is the BMW to get IMO
I like the new SL as it is in many ways an improvement over its predecessors and I wouldn’t focus on the weight.
Last edited by Wolfman; 07-03-2024 at 04:45 AM.
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07-03-2024, 10:29 AM
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