Sunir

You're only a pioneer if you succeed...if you fail you are just another guy who tried which albeit may be better than not trying at all...however in this case the reality seemed to be undermined by false expectations and promises left undelivered...

Havoc

Thanks NORCAL and I appreciate your support!

There's not much left to be completed and if I go with the guys I have in mind, it should be completed it in a short amount of time. They definitely have the ability and know how to not only get my car up and running, but completed.

AMGSC

Keith, Wherever you go, extensive custom road and dyno tuning will be needed just like me. I have narrowed my choices down to Evosport or Renntech. Both shops have inspected my car and have given it a clean bill of health so far. Both are willing to provide custom tuning on the road and dyno for a very reasonable price. Both are reputable and fairly local to me. Both can also provide routine service. EC is in Chicago so a bit too far for support and maintenance for me. No mail order tune will be adequate with both of our unique setups.

I would just like to add one more thing. Evosport and DynoComp both confirmed that the transmission is NOT stock, Evosport also test drove the car today and confirmed that the car had a high-stall torque converter based on the way it launched. According to Brad, the car actually felt surprisingly strong compared to other 55K cars that they modified. Vadim, I apologize if I questioned your integrity about installing the transmission and torque converter. I guess the negative posts influenced me and caused me to doubt you.

Brad has nothing but good things to say about Vadim. He just questions some of the people that Vadim has recently associated himself with. Hands down Vadim is has by far the best price in town. I've heard from Renntech that GMG Porsche's owner (Fabrese) complained that while Vadim brought in tons of MB business they could not make any money because he discounted everything too much. Vadim is geniunely a good guy to me. I can't speak for others who have complaints or financial claims against him but he never did me wrong intentionally. He always tried his best and stayed patient even when I'm throwing F-bombs at him and Vadim is no small guy either. If you ever met him, he looks like a bigger version of Fedor Emelianenko the MMA king.

jmf003

Well, a few comments for perspective, maybe...

Mercedes chooses power levels for its V12 and AMG engines based on a trade-off between performance and mean time between failure (MTBF). Consequently, there are no risk free performance mods; every mod that increases performance will inevitably reduce MTBF. If there were risk-free performance mods, Mercedes would implement them.

There are also no risk-free modding projects. Even with relatively simple tasks such as flashing an ECU, things can go wrong. The bigger the project, the greater number of things that can go wrong. Havoc's project was really, really big, which meant there were a lot of things that could (and did) go wrong.

Not everyone's modding goals are the same. Obviously performance is part of the the overall goal but its not the only goal. Some people want to be very active in choosing the parts; others just want to write a check and be done with it. Some people want to pioneer new parts and techniques; others wouldn't dream of using untested parts or techniques.

And to state the obvious, not everyone's budget is the same. I didn't spend as much on my car as Havoc spent on his car, but for what I did spend I could have purchased a turn-key 9 second 1/4 mile car and have enough left over to take my wife on an all expenses paid vacation. Some people would think my decision to be a complete waste of money. I had a ton of fun and don't regret doing it.

Finally, I have some of Vadim's parts in my car and everything I bought from Vadim worked as advertised. I can't speak to other people's projects, but Vadim's support of mine was spot on.

For what it's worth....

Havoc

Hey guys, thanks for your commits and input. I agree with both you guys.

And for what it's worth, yes I have a compression issue with one cylinder, but it's definitely not because it is over powered. It still has the stock tune with stock boost. Regardless, I highly doubt it's a major issue since it still runs, though ruff, but with no leaks, all fluid topped off, no smoke or grinding noises and all plugs are fine. It's most likely just a head/valve issue.

Also, I would stay with Vadim if he had more support and a complete shop, but he currently doesn’t. I want a full service race shop that has a complete and professional staff.

And for those that have an issue with the money I spend.. no worries, it’s only money. Get over it!!

Havoc

I chose to have Evosport complete the work on my car.
I have complete confidence in them finishing my build in a reasonable time frame. Their professionalism is one par with the Big tuners and they have great customer service. I will be sending my car to them within 6 weeks.

For now, I’m currently looking at my options for upgrading my connecting rods.
My goal with this is to further lighten up my bottom end while increasing my RPM range with maximum S/C boost. My first option is Pauter Custom made Titanium rods or Pauter Forged 4340 Steel rods.
Stay tuned!

AMGSC

Great choice Keith! My car is there now and they've added an experienced guy that worked at FJ and Caliber for the last 8 yrs I believe. They've also hired a very seasoned MB manager that worked at the U.S AMG testing center.

I'm starting to lean towards Evosport as well over Dynocomp due to convenience of them being local to me. I need the routine servicing as well so distance makes a big difference.

Havoc

Well, it didn't take me long to decide which connecting rod to upgrade with. It's Pauter Custom made 6AL4V Titanium rods FTW!!

To compare these rods to 4340 Chrome-Moly rods, the titanium rods weigh 33% less than the 4340 counterpart. In a 6-cylinder engine, that is equal to removing the weight of 2 steel rods from the complete rotating assembly. Typically, the big end of a 4340 rod weighs more than an entire titanium rod. On a 300 HP engine, this can make a difference of 30 to 40 HP at high RPM --- plus they are stronger and more reliable!

The down side is due to the steps involved in manufacturing as well as customer demand, these rods are processed start to finish in 10-12 weeks. Oh, and at over $9K, these rods are not your tipical mod..

I was told over and over again that I didn't need to upgrade my stock rods, but that prevented me from increasing my RPM's in the event my max HP and boost is at a higher RPM than the stock 6100 RPM limit. With my increased displacement, ported S/C, top mounted intercoolers, and other mods, I'm pretty sure my peak HP and boost is at a higher RPM. I'll probably also gain another 50+ HP at 7000 RPMs if I need to rev that high.

Stay Tuned!

AMGSC

Interesting but did Evosport recommend these rods or you did do your own research?

I was also thinking of putting titanium rods but Vadim told me the benefits were marginal at best because MBs are relatively low reving engines without a long stroke unlike a Japanese motorcycle.

Another question I have is balance. Would the pistons also have to be titanium in order to maintain the same balance of the entire assembly?

Havoc

I did my own research first and chose Pauter Custom made Titanium Rods as my first option. I asked Brad to choose out of the 5 I listed and he advised to go with Pauter, either Titanium or Forged 4340, since he currently uses them in other builds.

Our MB engines do not have a long stroke so it's easy to increase the RPM. You can't compare an auto V8 with a cycle V4, but you can compare big block V8s which have a longer stroke that keeps RPMs low with small blocks V8s that are rev happy.

No, the pistons don't need to be titanium in order to maintain balance. You can balance different materials of the same assembly.

blackbenzz

You still have the same number of rods and same number of pistons in the same locations. Doesn't matter if the pistons are made of adamantium and the rods are made of unobtanium. You can get it balanced. Where have you seen Ti pistons?

Havoc

I never have and I believe AMGSC was just thinking out loud. For the right coin I would imagine someone can make Ti pistons, but as you know, Al is lighter and it performs well enough.

Also, since my engine will be torn down to install the rods, I'll measure the piston to valve clearence again to see if there's any room for more valve lift. If so, I'll have my rocker arms made in Ti and slightly longer.

I'm trying blackbenz.. I'm trying..

NEMES1S

rofl

AMGSC

I can't wait to see you break new ground with Evosport. It makes my decision easier as well. My car needs a new alternator and Brad asked me if I wanted a race version alternator. It supposedly frees up more power but may underdrive my accessories. What do you think? Would you put one in?

Havoc

My car is currently at Evosport and they have just removed the heads to find out why one cylinder lost compression. It is very clear what happened. The valves floated and one exhaust valve hit a piston. Although we are not 100% sure why it happened, the most common reason this occurred would be insufficient valve spring strength to control valve float and/or over revving of the rpms.

One piston has slight damage which can be repaired while it’s still in the cylinder. The cylinders were not damaged. Also, the heads need to be completely rebuilt to include new valves, valve train, and new cams. The cams are toast and need to be replaced because of the fluttering of the valves against them.

I have the VRP/PTE cams with titanium retainers and stock valve springs. I would suggest whoever has these upgraded cams to upgrade their valve springs to stronger ones as soon as possible or to at least keep your rpms low.

Also, the cylinders have an enormous amount of carbon buildup for only having 3K miles which is most likely due to it not being tuned well.

With all the issues this 5.7L built motor has given me I’m confident that the final build will be able to endure some serious abuse. But for now it’s back to disassembly for the 3rd time to ensure all issues are addressed.

My custom Ferrea oversized exhaust valve that was damaged.


My custom Mahle forged oversized piston that was damaged.


The enormous amount of carbon buildup at only 3K miles.

NEMES1S

how long did you have issues with loss of compression? If you were driving for a while with low compression on one cylinder, it may have thrown your air fuel way out of whack when you were cruising around and the car tried to compensate. I had this happen on an acura cl that needed a valve job on one cylinder and that cylinder dropped compression and the others were all carboned up when I pulled the head. I hope all goes well for you, and idk if they are a popular mod for the 55k cars, but I know a ton of people use a dual spring setup on hi-rev imports.

Havoc

Not long at all. I was accelerating hard and when I slowed down the engine died. Upon startup the ECU killed all the spark on that one side of the block for protection which made it undriveable. It later refused to start.

jmf003

Wow! Sorry to hear that!!

Havoc

I know! But I'm staying positive and moving forward. It's a weak point that probably would have appeared sometime in the future anyway. I'm just glad it wasn't worse like loosing the block and/or heads. Since I have to replace all the valve train I'll use this time to see if we are able to strengthen and/or lighten up any of the parts. I would love to have some high lift cams built even at the cost of replacing the pistons. I'm still not sure what to do about the bottom end though. It could be perfectly fine since the damage is not that severe. But then again, there could be some unforeseen issue that could show up later in the future if we don't disassemble it for inspection. I also might have to pass on the titanium connecting rods I planned on installing since this is going to be additional cost. I’ll keep you posted on the rebuild and the changes we make.

PTE

I remember talking to Victor about those Custom pistons. I had looked at those side by Side Pictures Date 6-/6/09 Post #2 & picture #10. Left ( new) & Right (oem) . I e-mail him some concerns on The Custom ones .
#1 Like the large unsupported Oil scraper & expander rings at the Wrist pin openings. This maybe OK for short term Race engines , But a No - No for long term oil control on a Street motor.
#2 Clay in the dome for Valve to piston distance. They have had precision measuring dial indicators & Very large crank mounted degree wheels to measure Valve drop & contact distance
The fact was shown on the OEM piston, on the exhaust was close on a stock motor, Noted by the carbon deposits were clean off the flat area beyond the dish , Notice there was no clay on that flat ???
Also the larger Diameter valve head puts it closer on just its being just that.
I would have had the pistons fly cut on that flat to give 2 mm / .080 .
My Guess is that the block deck was cut to clean it up after the sleeves were install & The heads had a skim cut just to true them up. And this just put the assys too close together. and parts touched. These motors are build so close & Tight ( Sign of tight tolerences ) Good production manufactureing, so there is consistance HP through out the Model year.

If I remember correctly . The builder used all new Ferrea valves Springs , retainers & Keepers and VRP/PTE cams. IMHO I would leave the Rods & Crnk assy alone , If they show no signs of Damage. Keep the pistons at least .015 below the deck at TDC

Go with Mahle forged replacements or KB custom , Maybe bump the C/R from 9.5- 1 too 9.75 - 1
Cheers _PTEngineering

Havoc

Pat,
My issue is not valve to piston clearance, its valve float. My valve springs were never upgraded. They are stock springs. If I would have upgraded to stronger springs I would have never had valve float nor a broken valve and piston. Both cams are trashed because all valves floated and the fluttering of the valves against the cams is what toasted them. Now yes, I have less clearance than a stock 55K, and if I had taken prevented measures like flycutting the pistons I may not have a damaged valve and piston, but I still would have valve float with trashed cams and valve train. Actually my clearance is not all that tight if I just had one valve hit a piston when all the valves floated.

I’m just saying you might want to tell people who buy your cams to upgrade the springs. Yes, I run my engine hard and bring it to redline often. Did I over rev, no cause I remember watching my rpms at shifting and the ECU will also help in preventing over revving. I’m not mad at you, I’m just saying.

Also, thank’s for your input with regards to my build. I'll be in touch. Thanks bro!

Maverick1975

Hello Havoc

After reading your posts i wanted to commend you on your optimism and calmness during this whole process. I hope it comes off for you. You are an inspiration to us all!

PTE

Now that I know more of the story, It Begins to make sense. The larger Intake & Exhaust Valves most likely weigh more than the OEM valves. I never weighed the OEM valves, and do not no the weigh of the S.S. Ferrea Valves. Just a Guess here , you valve float may be happening at a lower rpm , than the stock OEM components with VRP/PTE cams. Thanks to the additional valve weigh of the Ferrea valves ? I can tell you this. I've buzzed my motor to 6700 & 6800 rpm many times with the stock valves, valve springs , and Titanium valve spring retainers with the VRP /PTE cams with no valve Float.

Just look at the spots on the OEM pistons & the locations of the carbon free areas. The valves are close to start with. That's why I took such a long time to precision measure and check valve to piston clearence at ever (1) degree increment to assure the .135" / 3.42mm on the exh valve to piston @ 5* BTDC exhaust on stock OEM parts. I'm sure the Guys you are working with can get Aftermarket higher PSI springs
Again Thank you Keith for the Vital info.
Cheers _PTEngineering

Havoc

Pat,
Yeah, I totally agree. The additional weight of my oversized valves could compromise the resistance of the stock spring rate. I’m not sure of the weight of both valves either, but I also would imagine the oversized valves are heavier. I think 3K miles is what it took to affect the stock spring rate to a point of slight compromise which lead to the valve float. That’s my guess.

Hey bro, now I have an excuse to change out those pistons and install some custom high lift cams for a radical set-up. That’s how I look at it!

HE22WA