homemark

First off let me say that these are two entirely different cars and a straight comparison is not really fair. Although given the advent of tiptronic availability on the 996 Turbo and with the impending launch of the Cayenne, clearly Porsche sees the GT aspect of their cars as important – something that comes naturally to Mercedes.

I’ve mentioned before in this forum that the SL55 is closer to a 928 than a 911. The 928 was clearly a GT given its size, V8 engine and generally automatic transmission. However given current driving and road conditions, in particular in London I now regret having purchased a 996 TT in June 2002 which I kept until a few weeks back when my SL55 arrived.

I rattled the cages of a Porsche forum when I announced my disappointment with the Turbo and suggested trading it for an SL55. It received the highest number of responses in the forum’s history and clearly I’d hit a nerve.

The 996 Turbo was my dream car. The words ‘Porsche Turbo’ seem to hold so much emotion and heritage that ever since I can remember I wanted one – it was either a Lamborghini Countach or a Porsche Turbo as they were the two cars that adorned my bedroom walls from as early as I can remember. Although I still scour the small ads checking the prices of winged raging bulls I know for sure that a Countach will only appear in my house when it’s on the front of classic car mags or my wife’s left me and I’ve won the lottery – dream on. So, after a brief encounter with a 993 Targa and a full year in a new 996 C2 Cab I took the plunge, waited 12 months and took delivery of my dream car.

It sounds outrageous to be disappointed by a car costing £100,000 – but I was. I remember the adulation when I got my first 911 (the 993 Targa). It was amazing – I was actually driving a 911 and it was mine – and the driving experience was unlike any other – bliss. The 996 Cab was fun too – but it seemed to miss the raw edge of the 993 which has been commented on by so many people and the convertible top just made it shake and rattle. When I took delivery of the 996 Cab I simultaneously ordered the Turbo.

Let me kill the first Porsche myth – Depreciation. Who was it that said these cars are like a rock? It’s not true. Even before global meltdown, I’d lost £15,000 on a 996 Cab in 12 months. Why is it we believe everything these dealers say to us. We’re all meant to be diligent intelligent people that have accumulated decent amounts of money by being sharp yet, when we walk into a car showroom, we become like small kids in a sweet shop – and then we vow never to be taken for a ride again – only we do – but for even more money. Anyway, I paid £72,000 for my 996 Cab, did 10,000 miles, and my dealer gave me £57,000 against the new Turbo.

My Turbo had loads of extras as I tried in vain to give it an edge over others – aerokit, carbon, sat nav, painted console etc, etc. £97,000 later and I’m driving out the showroom on my 36th birthday, June 28th 2002. Wow – NOT.

First of all, I’m sitting in exactly the same interior as my 996 Cab. In fact, I’m sitting in the same interior as a £32,000 Boxster. I’m sitting in traffic in Central London and I may as well be in a Boxster – in fact, I should have bought myself one, my wife one and got myself a mistress and given her a Boxster too and saved £1,000!

I’m looking around me thinking this is great but, why in 2002 have I got a f**king cassette slot in the middle of my dashboard. Then it dawned on me. Porsche, in relative terms, is a tiny manufacturer. They simply do not have the ability to develop parts or negotiate with suppliers to get technology first. I know it’s only a cassette player but it’s so symbolic. I’m sitting in a car costing nearly £100k, it’s 2002 and I’m not sure you can even buy cassettes anymore.

Then it started – I read review after review preaching the virtues of the SL55 – the complete car. And then acquaintances I had started to trade their Turbos for SL55’s and then I found myself placing a deposit with my local Merc dealer in September expecting delivery in Q4 2003 only to be called in December offering me a ‘cancelled order’.

Now don’t get wrong the Turbo is an awesome ca. Iit may have a fantastic engine and awesome brakes but unless you live amongst twisty country roads or get to blast up the motorway every day it’s simply the wrong car. I live close to the centre of London and rarely leave town – once, in 6 months I got to 120mph – and that was it. It is incredibly quick – almost like driving a four wheeled motorbike. Thing is, I reckon most people who buy Turbos, just like me, buy them for their heritage, status and looks – and the driving experience simply doesn’t meet the lifestyle. However hard Porsche tries by fitting tiptronic transmission, parking bleepers, sat nav and the like, it will never satisfy a town driver like an SL55 can.

Then the depreciation bombshell kicks in – and this time it really kicks in. The world was about to go to war, Christmas has just been and gone and if the City boys hadn’t been made redundant, they certainly got no bonus, and the residential property market was also about to crash. Ads in the Sunday Times, specialist web sites, various mags etc. generated a few calls but nothing more than dreamers – just like I used to be so can’t really complain. In the end, I accepted £82,000 from the one dealer that bothered calling me back. (For our US friends, the UK is the size of Florida – we have around 20 dealers and there were about 30 Turbos for sale in the network plus all the private ads). So I lost £15,000 in 6 months on a car that’s meant to be in demand with only 3,300 miles on the clock. Painful. That’s £15k on the Turbo and £15k on the 996 cab. £30,000 in 18 months – I can only admit this following therapy.

So, it’s off to my local Mercedes dealer. First off, the welcome is warm – much warmer than Porsche. It seems as if the entire showroom’s been told I’m coming and everyone knows my name – the motoring equivalent of the ‘Cheers’ bar.

I’m then taken on a tour of my SL55 – it takes almost one-and-a-half-hours. I’m in heaven. They can’t be more helpful and even called me on the way home to check everything was running okay.

So let me compare experiences;

I don’t care about official times – the SL55’s power is so useable due to the auto box that it seems twice as quick as the Porsche. The torque is incredible. I’ve only experienced anything like this in a Bentley Turbo, it’s the same feeling. The momentum generated is like a power station off the blocks. Awesome.

Don’t even think about comparing comfort. Everything you’d expect from a luxury car that Porsche can only dream or bull**** about. Ergonomics are first class even with all the gadgetry and no cassette player.

As a gadget freak, I’m in heaven. But there’s some useful stuff in the Merc. Initially, I thought Linguatronic was useless – but it’s actually brilliant and really safe. The hi-fi is fantastic and miles better then the Porsche system even though they talk about theirs like it’s the best in the world. I like the way I can lift the car a couple of inches to get over speed bumps and even after showing my friends all this stuff I forget the roof comes off! And it’s got a TV and massaging seats.

Porsche obviously wins on handling – you really feel the car but the Merc is still special. Bottom line is that it’s good enough for anyone unless you’re going to chuck it around the track.

After Sales – I’ve had calls asking me if everything is okay and I got nothing from Porsche. There’s one aspect that maybe sums it up. 3 months after buying the Porsche I got invited by my Porsche dealer to a track day. ‘Sure’ I said, what cars will you have. ‘Bring your own’ he said! So Porsche invites you to a track day where you thrash hell out of your car and then call them a week later to sort out the tires, brakes etc. etc. 3 weeks after buying my Merc I get a limited edition hardback book inviting me to a what looks like a fantastic day out where I get to use their AMG’s to learn how to drive mine properly.

You can see why Porsche has developed the Cayenne. They need a luxurious comfortable car for people like me. And I’m not rare, I represent the majority of Porsche buyers. We love the brand and want a piece of it but the days of dressing up Porsche racers to be luxury cars is not good for a brands integrity – it’s bull****.

Now, if Porsche were to develop a new 928 then that would be superb. But, in this day and age, can Porsche compete. I predict Porsche will be swallowed up within 10 years for the same reasons it took BMW to make a new Rolls Royce and VW to do the new Bentley. A decent recession, the Cayenne needing an early facelift and deserters to brands like Mercedes and the new Aston Martin will take their toll. I love the Porsche brand but they’re living off their heritage and quickly need to give something back.

In the meantime, I get to drive home in the traffic, watch the evening news, get a massage and talk to my phone to dial my wife to tell her to put the dinner in the over. In the Porsche the only thing that hurt more on the way home than my back was my wallet.


NB.

996 Turbo - Special Order Colour 'Slate Grey', Special Order Interior 'Natural grey leather', Painted Centre Console, Carbon Highlights, Rear Park Assist, Porsche Communication Management.

SL55 - Obsidian Black. Alpaca Interior, Parktronic, Comfort Seats, Tyre Pressure Mon, Nokia Phone, Keyless Go, TV Tuner, Linguatronic.

KU104

Is the Porsche really that bad...Over here I see them everywhere and a friend of mine sold his (for personal reason) and is now regretting it and thinking of getting an '03. So how can you say that they aren't that good? I agree the SL55 is an amazing car (yes its a Benz ) but I never thought it would be "better" than a Turbo. I know you said they are different cars. But...one is for the track and one for the road. It all depends on your needs.

blueSL

homemark, great to have the detail to the experience of changing. I agree with you completely abount Porsche Dealers, they're an extreme case of people who want too much for the car they're selling and too little for the car they're buying. No matter how well looked after the car is, there's always some reason why it's not worth very much and I guess because of the demand, they don't have to negotiate.

My favourite Porsche was the 993, I never got beyond a 964 but the 996 does nothing for me, I hate the nose design. Porsche desparately need a new sports car design, like the new Aston.

As for depreciation generally, it begs the question whether it's better to buy a car and keep it for a while, or hop from one in-demand car to another in quick succession, like morebhp is planning.

absent

August '01,had a 996 tt tip for 3 weeks,hated it,traded for 996 cab for my wife,lost $12000 on a car with 300 miles.
Last December traded the Cab on a CL600,lost $30000 on a car with 6000 miles.
This month traded the CL(lost garage,had to move,demolishing old house,building a huge new one),lost $15000.
You are right,we work hard for our money and then we act like kids in a candy store when in dealer showroom.
I'm disgusted with myself!!!

Mr. Xristo

Unless you deal in vintage Ferarri's/Mercedes/Porsche's vehicles are depreciating assets, plain and simple.

You will loose money 99.99% of the time, especially when trading in your vehicle to a dealership.

Speed15

It sounds like the car wasn't the problem, it is the qualities and features you are looking for in your dream car that have evolved since you began driving. When you bought your first Porsche, you claim to have felt that raw power, something you had dreamed about since a young age. Well, now that you are older and wiser, you have come to realize that maybe what you are looking for is something that is a little more refined, something that can accomodate your needs in traffic while relaxing from a day at work. It seems as though the Porsche has kept its genuine characteristics according to your statements. It was a little harsh to deal with in traffic, despite having a Tiptronic, it was not as comfortable for your back, it lacked necessary cupholders and storage compartments, ruffled leather, talking gadgetry, etc. Porsche's imaged has changed as the buyer has evolved. They see that customers are looking for creature comforts, and the true sports car enthusiast has become a dying breed. I agree you have found the right car for your needs with the SL55, but in no way has Porsche really sacrificed its image if you can't handle it on a daily basis, like a Mercedes, which is just a fast luxury cruiser, with no racing heritage.

FInality

I hope you do know who really kicked F1 into high gear? It wasn't Ferrari, BMW or Porsche it was Mercedes.

Granted Mercedes does not build race cars and then transform them into road cars. I believe Porsche is the only company that does that. Though with the success of the CLK in the DTM class you can argue otherwise.

RJC

Porsche's have lost there amazing build quality and awesome aircooled engines with the new 996 series cars. Porsche went with the tooling etc. for the 996 back in 1994 when the economy was not doing well and their 964 cars were not selling well so they had the Japanese come in to show them how to build a 911 for less money and have many interchangable parts for the Boxster. If Porsche new the 993 series would have sold so well ( it's amazing what flared fenders, more power, cleaned up front/rear caps and cross drilled brakes can do) and the economy was going to take off we still would have those amazing cars to drive. If you ever want a real 911 the best of the breed was the 1997 Twin Turbo/S. BTW I've owned over 11 Porsches in my lifetime including a 996 car...it was a big dissapoinment. Porsche is supposed to be launching a revised model "997" for 05, this car is touted to look more like a 993, we'll see if the build quality and interior design step up as well. From what I've seen and read the Cayenne's interior and TT V8 is up to par...that's a good sign

Some Pete Guy

Based upon your comments, you obviously have no understanding of the engine in the 996TT.

RJC

Indeed I do! The liquid cooled engines offer nothing in performance that the aircooled engines did not/could not acheive. The 996 series engines went to "liquid" cooling vs aircooling to meet future emissions regulations in addition the liquid cooled engine simply does not offer that intoxicating sound that the aircooled engine did and Porsche purisits prefer the aircooled series of cars hands down. I've owned both series of cars and IMHO the 996 series cannot match the 993 series for ALL the reasons I stated earlier. The engine in the 996 TT is very fine and quite sophisticated, if you own the 996 car be happy it's a nice car

theine

originally posted by speed15

like a Mercedes, which is just a fast luxury cruiser, with no racing heritage.

I'm not sure you know what are you talking about.

Some Pete Guy

Again, based upon your comments, you obviously have no understanding of the engine in the 996TT.

RJC

Okay Pete enlighten us, what can the watercooled engines do that the aircooled engines could not be capable of acheiving from a performance prospective? The liquid cooled versions modest hp increase was easliy accomplished with engine management software changes that the 993 TT could have also benefited from, acheiving the same power increase. Why do you think the watercooled engine is so far superior to the aircooled ones? BTW do you own a 996 TT or have you ever owned an aircooled 911/930 or 993 turbo?

Some Pete Guy

What you seem to not understand is that there is a great deal of difference between the NA 996 engines and the engines used in the 996TT.

They are completely different animals.

If the "liquid cooled engines offer nothing in performance that the aircooled engines did not/could not acheive" then why did Porsche use a water-cooled engine on the GT1 instead of the air cooled engine?

If there was no benefit, why didn't they stick with an aircooled engine when Le Mans was on the line? They must have only been concerned about emmissions...

The liquid cooled engines offer nothing in performance that the aircooled engines did/could not achieve, right? LOL.

That kind of comment could be made about virtually any FI engine. BTW, the liquid cooled version can be just as easily modded for modest, or significant, hp increase.

What does my car ownership have to do with your inaccurate claims?

One of the reasons that the 996TT engine is better than the 993TT engine is the fact that it has a much bigger, and flatter, torque band, thanks to Variocam Plus.

What is so very funny about your first comment, "Porsche's have lost there amazing build quality and awesome aircooled engines with the new 996 series cars" is the fact that the 996TT and the 993TT share a very similar block, which is quite different than the block of the NA 996s.

Cheers.

RJC

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Some Pete Guy
[B]What you seem to not understand is that there is a great deal of difference between the NA 996 engines and the engines used in the 996TT.

They are completely different animals.**** Well aware of that. (you also mentioned, they do share a very similar block etc) It's funny the original context of my post was commenting on the cars build quality and the awesome aircooled engines with an intoxicating sound...that point does not change.

If the "liquid cooled engines offer nothing in performance that the aircooled engines did not/could not acheive" then why did Porsche use a water-cooled engine on the GT1 instead of the air cooled engine?**** To help promote their new series of engines... some of the race cars from Porsche over 20 years ago produced more power than the gt1 and were aircooled, although Porsche used watercooled heads on some, but for the most part they were based on a primary aircooled system.

If there was no benefit, why didn't they stick with an aircooled engine when Le Mans was on the line? They must have only been concerned about emmissions...****The reason Porsche switched to liquid cooled on their regular production cars was for emissions, water cooling gave a more consistant temperature which provides better emissions

The liquid cooled engines offer nothing in performance that the aircooled engines did/could not achieve, right? LOL.****laugh all you want but as I stated earlier the 3.6 TT aircooled engine benefiting from the upgrades to its engine management would produce the same power ie higher boost and fuel/air enhancements. I beleive the performance differences ( 0-60 1/4 mile & 0-100) between the A/C TT and the W/C TT are not much at all.



That kind of comment could be made about virtually any FI engine. BTW, the liquid cooled version can be just as easily modded for modest, or significant, hp increase.****It certainly holds true for both air and water.


****The variable cam timing is a plus for sure but the previous generation has huge torque and quite usable at that.

What is so very funny about your first comment "Porsches have lost their amazing build quality and their awesome aircooled engines with the new 996 series cars"is the 996TT and 993TT share a very similar block which is quite different, than the NA996.****The build quality of the 996 series cars do not compare to the aircooled cars period...if you owned them both you'd understand. I commented on the blocks etc above.

****Drive both cars experience the quality the feel the looks( looks are subjective of course) the sounds from the engines, the door mechanisims, the switch gear, the quality of plastics, the dash layout, listen for rattles, the watercooled car has many the aircooled none, hit the dash with your hand as hard as you dare, in the aircooled car you'll break your hand. in the water cooled you'll break the car. I can go on and on, and this you need to experience first hand over years of driving both cars. I will say this the gear box in the 996 cars is MUCH better and they are both fast as $%!^ and drive wonderfully at speed.

Nice chatting with you about Porsches, I hope one day you will be as blessed as I, to have owned both...either way all the best to you. They're probably going to move this to the off topic section LOL!

Some Pete Guy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RJC
[B]Based upon your comments, you weren't, and aren't.


LOL. Are you for real? The "new series" of engines weren't used at Le Mans. The decision wasn't made for M96 engine marketing reasons, it was made for performance reasons.

Nope. In '82 they were using water cooled heads to keep peak temps at bay.

Again, your comments vis-a-vis the 996TT engine are absurd. They didn't switch to a water cooled engine for emissions reasons.

Might I suggest you go buy Powerplay, 25 Years of the Porsche Turbo, the Full Story?

So for you performance is only 0-60 and 0-100? LOL again.

Which part of "flat, broad" torque band are you struggling with? It's not about "huge" torque, it's about when it peaks and how big the peak is.

I don't have to have owned them both to know the differences in build quality. There are many 993 owners that disagree with you and I've spent my fgair share of time in 993s aas well.

I've spent 30k miles in a 996TT and spent a decent amount of time in 993s at the track, and less on the street.

Your experiences are quite different than mine and seem to reflect the feelinigs of the original poster (more concerned about appearance than performance i.e. cars as jewelry).

p.s. you need to work on your quoting.

JustinTRW

Bingo. There are still plenty of happy Porsche owners who hold the qualities of their cars higher than the qualities of the SL55. There is nothing wrong with either philosophy, they are simply different. From Countach (very raw car) to SL55. The SL55 is the better choice for so many reasons in my mind, but those who like to live more wildly may prefer the Lambo. For example, I read an article arguing that the 911 GT3 is a very good GT car (though you would never think of it from a track vehicle) because of driver involvment vs. driver shielding (MB philosophy).

For reference, the SL55 laps Hockenheim with a time of 1.18,4 min, whereas the 996 Turbo does it in 1.14,6 min. Simply put, some people will want that four seconds, which is extremely significant if timing matters to you.

BTW, NB...you may be right about your comment on Porsche buyers moving to MB and Aston Martin. My father is thinking of placing a deposit on the new DB8. What do you think of it?

In the end, I'm just glad you are happy. Don't listen to what anyone says...you've driven them all and made your choice.

jswedberg

I'll have to agree with homemark (and disagree with Some Pete Guy) - at a slightly smaller scale, I got rid of my '97 993 for my C32 for many of the same reasons that homemark did. I test drove the 996, but for my situation (city driving) the C32 is far better.

The build quality of my 993 was similar to the Mercedes - not perfect, but very nice. If I had to say one was better than the other, I'd go with Mercedes - it is a much more complicated car. Porsches are pretty simple.

The Porsche was (and still is, in my opinion) not as up-to-date interior-wise, probably due to it's small manufacturer status.

By the way, it is VERY true that one of the major reasons Porsche changed to water cooling is emissions - it was getting to be non-cost-effective to deal with the emissions issue and still make the desired power levels. For the non-Turbo models, the move was cost-related, as well, the old air-cooled engines were expensive and complicated to manufacture.

RJC

**** For posts like yours I'll quote the way I want, see above comments.

jswedberg brings up many good points, read his post. I mentioned in my original post why porsche switched platforms in the first place...COST, the 996 series cars ALL of them are cheaper to build and if you spent any significant time driving both on a dialy basis you would know this. I also said the new 996TT is a fine engine but I'll take mine aircooled. I also said that Porsche was planning on bringing the car back to the 993 series in terms of looks and quality for 05+...sure hope so.

Not spending any more time in a pissing contest with you, beleive what you want.

All the best to you and no hard feelings

Some Pete Guy

Likewise.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't necessarily make them drink.

Cya.

Bilal

"Not spending any more time in a pissing contest with you, beleive what you want"


EL MAGNIFICO SENOR!!!!

blueSL

I think it's a pity that a thread which started as an interesting view from someone who switched from 911 Turbo to SL55 has degenerated into this. Cool it guys!

It's says something for the almost religious fervour with which the 911 is regarded by it's enthusiasts who will not countenance the possibility that maybe, just maybe, not everyone feels the same way.

JustinTRW

If you think this was bad, visit C32life.com...

Some Pete Guy

Perhaps you should read the thread again.

The 911 Turbo discussion was a technical discussion about the difference between the various engine configurations.

Best of luck.

JackStraw

Peter,

Perhaps you should read the thread again, but this time, start from the beginning.