Thericker

Here...Post #8
Yet when corrected by facts you cry "Why all the speed comparo's" lol BTW I love your supposed yet you think K&N's & ECU tune done to SL63 N/A motor will magically net 40-50+ BHP

sound 8

Same old member!! I new as soon as you stuck your oar in on 13 with figures
you would ruin it! You and a few others always post the same old answers,
and it's always figures,drag times etc, what's the matter can't you talk on any other subject. All I did was ad the fact that the 63 could be re-mapped
with out quoting times, I added what the re-mapping company said which was 560+ and it feels that way. So when I ask if any body has run times on a modified 63 all you want to do is take it apart. There was a huge heated
discussion recently about whether K&N make any difference, I believe you and your cronies argued the fact they made an important difference, apparently not now.
Can we return to discussing a choice between a 63 or a 65 without having figures rammed down our throats!

TMC M5

Drop-in K&N/BMC filters can add power to cars. In a V12TT application a car with 500rwhp could see about a 10rwhp gain. That only represents a 2% increase. An SL63 would likely see 5-8 hp gain (about a 1.5% gain). you have to remember the TT's are forcing air into the engine. An N/A engine isn't going to see that same jump in performance.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Thericker... the 60+hp claim is highly doubtful for a N/A engine with just ECU and drop-in filters. You can't use a detuned C63 as the basis for extrapolating performance gains on the other 63 platforms. Which company did you get this tune from...and what sort of evidence do they provide for these performance gains.

Tom

Benz-O-Rama

Not only is it doubtful, it's impossible. Sorry Sound8, your ECU tune + filters are adding 30+35hp, maybe. And that might be a bit optimistic. There's just not much more that can be gained on the 63 engine, unless it's the detuned C63.

sound 8

Tom I know you are a clever man, apart from being continually apposed to my comments. When my 63 was re-mapped I was extremely skeptical, I was
ready like you to poo poo it because I can't see how they could get the extra
power from a nat *** engine. You can imagine how pleasantly surprised when
I took it from a run with the technician on board only to feel basically a more
torquey feel. Later that day I took it for my usual test where as you said, I
wrang it's neck and got an increase from 124mph to 130mph several times.
There must be a significant increase, and this time because you and it appears everyone else has never come across a re mapped 63 or measured
the times of one, I suggest you put your comments on hold, your equations
may be correct but I believe in the practical side. Let's wait until someone does it!
By the way, the company that done it said they had done quite a few C63
with great affect. They also invited me to put my car on their rolling road to show the increase, that's pretty fair I think, and to shut every one up I intend
to do it, when the snow clears and I can get my 560+ monster up to the freeway.

TMC M5

I probably am opposed to an inordinate amount of your comments....but that is hardly intentional. I believe it stems from your inordinate (and very vocal) love affair with all things surrounding your SL63. I love my car too....but I try to remain grounded in reality as to its many..many limitations. I try to point out certain limitations of your SL63 and its platform and you take it personally...not my intention...and I won't apologize for sharing my opinion.

Okay...now down to business. I have dynoed my cars and taken them to the track.. many...many times. I am a doubting Thomas...so I take tuner's claims with the whole shaker of salt. It would be fun to take their word for it and just fantasize about what maximum hp and tq figures I am running at....but I find that empty without proof.

What I have found in my automotive travels is that the tuners always overestimate or manipulate the data. Your ECU tune on the SL63 may very well have a 40+hp increase. But that increase may be "under-the-curve". For example, say the engine made 325hp @ 4,000 RPM...with a tune it may make 365hp @ that same 4,000 RPM. However, the peak might only go from 425hp pre-tune....to 440hp post tune.

Other tricks I have seen are the tuner's baseline car producing unbelievable low figures. Then the post-tune car running very strong. There are many ways to lower the baseline car's hp...it isn't rocket science.

I would suggest this...contact the tuner and set up the parameter of this "test". Flash the car back to stock at the MB dealership. Dyno the car on their rolling road with stock flash...then dyno car with their tune. I honestly don't trust tuners to flash you back to stock as they could go into your fuel tables and pull timing...and once again make your car's stock tune look very slow in comparison to their tune.

Alternatively, take your car to Santa Pod Raceway. Your car would need to trap more than 119mph in the 1/4 mile to be realistically making 560+hp.

Tom

Gondon

Take it to the track sound8

Sunir

Sound8 ...to the track ye must go old boy! lets look at the trap and ET.

sound 8

OK I love my 63, there nothing wrong with that!
I am also a very logical person, I don't believe in life after death or global warming. You on the other hand seem to be anti SL63 and like to trash the
good things about it. I also don't lie, especially to myself, my 63 increased it's terminal speed from 124mph to 130 mph, how do you explain that.
Tuning companies do exaggerate, in all the time I have been involved in cars
I have seen some ludicrous figures banded about, and take them with a pinch of salt.However there is one question that hasn't been addressed, has any member had their 63 re-mapped, if not why not. There are far more 63's in the States than the rest of the world! surely somebody has had it done
I don't really want to put it back to stock measure it and then re-map it and see! I would rather put it at Santa Pod and see a quarter mile time, however I have never done this and would probably **** it up. Does anybody offer this re-mapping for the 63 in the States, if they do, what bhp do they say it will increase to.
We have rather got away from the subject and ended up talking speed!
I wanted to show that apart from speed the 63 offers a lot the 65 doesn't have.

Sunir

Sound8...we all know you love your SL63 and that's cool mate...enjoy it that's what it's there for. Tom's not hating on your car, he's being logical as well and looking at it from an unbiased standpoint and pointing out it's limitations...all cars have their limitations, not just your 63. The SL63 has some great points to it, and although speed imay not one of them, shifting prowess is, maybe road feel is another strong element...so there are good and bad in cars, such is the reality that governs engineering trade offs and new models/designs more often than not. I'm sure you can understand.

sound 8

Sure, I have taken it in, but this is a bit of a nightmare when nobody seems to have a simple answer, has anyone had their SL63 re-mapped, if they haven't then I speak from a position of authority, it makes me unique!

Benz-O-Rama

Yes, many people have remapped their 63's here, mostly E63s, but the chassis doesn't matter, unless we're talking the detuned C63.

RENNtech is widely considered the gold standard in ECU remapping, would you agree? Assuming you do agree, go to their website and look at what they advertise as gains on the SL63.

You can purchase just an ECU tune and you know what that gets you? 12HP and 20 lb-ft of torque.

Their basic Stage1 tune includes a remap and stainless steel headers. What does that yield? 22hp and 35lb-ft of torque.

Your SL63 is a remarkable machine at what it does well. However, the tuning gains just don't exist. That's why most people prefer the 55K cars to their 63 counterparts.

Venture into the W211 AMG forum and search around for tuned 63s. There's tons of them. All with less than stellar gains.

Sorry man, you're not getting 580hp out of your tune. It's just not capable of it.

TMC M5

+1000 Clayton

Tom

sound 8

Sorry, I am in England, so not familiar with US tuners.
It looks like were ahead of you over here. Nobody is going to pay 2000us to
get 12 or 20 bhp. I guess I will have to prove it, and I will. Maybe your 63
re mapping service over there is controlled by emissions, so I could have a
63 with more bhp than 63's in the States, perhaps that's why no one has done drag times on a US modified car.

Benz-O-Rama

Good Lord!

Enjoy your car, man. I can see it's going to be impossible to educate you on this.

TMC M5

I bet the tuner is DMS. There is a thread over on the M5 board that for over three years people have been asking to see before and after dyno graphs from DMS (or their Kool-Aid drinking customers) backing up their 40hp ECU tune claim. To date no one has answered the call.... enjoy the 24 page read.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...remap-dms.html

I think it boils down to this...people in the UK (Europe in general) have very limited access to quality dynos and drag tracks. So tuners over there can completely exaggerate their performance claims with no one ever calling them out. The owners of these cars are more than happy to live with fantasy #'s that someone feeds them because their butt dyno feels it. As I eluded to before, I don't doubt that there is a performance gain "under-the-curve" which you will feel seat of the pants...I just doubt there is that much room at the peak to improve upon.

Here in the U.S. a large amount of people who performance modify their cars dyno the car before and after....and/or take them to the drag strip. They go to the dyno/track after getting these performance upgrades with an expectation in their mind as to the car's improved performance. The tuners here in the U.S. generally can't come out with exaggerated claims because their product will be tested and they will be out of business if the claims do not get backed up at the track or on the dyno. It has nothing to do with the European tuners being any better....in fact most of them are filing sharing similar Bosch programs to begin with.

Tom

Carl Lassiter

Great post. The UK tuners are no doubt guilty of this, DMS is quite the NA joke. Also the tuning industry is far larger in the US than the UK (even with the relevant country sizes taken into account) most likely because with few curves but many wide open freeways horsepower is king in Sam's land. By the way, the butt dyno is can also be aptly referred to as the wallet dyno.

sound 8

Tom, I have called you some things, but never arrogant, but your comments
would curl the toes of the UK racing industry. Talk about me.......
people in the UK have very limited access to quality dyno's.. did you really say that. And your reference to most tuners being nothing but robbers stuns me. This is the land of F1, the leaders in car tuning!! Where do you think all the MB engine improvements come from. not by some US tuner that's for sure! I really cannot believe your naivety, I thought you were better than this, I am disappointed with your remarks, I always thought your answers were professional and correct.
Sorry mate, on this one your totally wrong.

carcommander

I still wish you lived in Atlanta so I could yank the paint off your SL63. :-)

sound 8

Is this the limit of your intellect.

sound 8

There is only one way to sort this out, I am going to take my car to an independent tuner with a rolling road, let's save our comments to when this is done, unfortunately I am snowed in at present, but true to my word, I will publish the results, even if I have to eat humble pie!

BVLDARI

TMC M5

Did I hit a nerve?

I find it laughable how you try to twist my words....engineering firms like McLaren and Cosworth have nothing to do with firms like DMS. Why you brought F1 into this and wrapped yourself up in the Union Jack is merely a facade to hide your lack of knowledge on the subject.

I have read numerous UK publications (EVO, Car, Top Gear, AutoCar, BMW Performance, Mercedes Enthusiast...etc) over the years and done my research on the subject of tuning. The U.S. and UK tuning scene isn't very different. But I would think that the U.S. has a distinct advantage in the sheer volume and amount of money being thrown around by customers. There is more competition in the US to bring the best/highest performing products to the market. This isn't bragging...or national pride....it is merely simple economics coming into play.

As far as track testing these products. I looked up how many drag strips are in the UK...an area of 94,526sq miles. There are only 5...count them 5. In the state of Maryland alone (an area of 12,407sq miles...nearly 1/7 the size of the UK) there are 5. Doesn't this tell you something? I can access all 5 tracks in MD an hour's drive from where I live. In the Mid-Atlantic region here in the U.S. (about twice the size of the UK), I could access no less than 35 drag strips.

In the U.S. car enthusiasts who modify their cars are much more likely to test their modifications at the track. This is further proof of the U.S. enthusiasts determination to actually test modifications. Don't you think that simple economic theories apply in the UK? If there was an overflow at the current UK tracks...wouldn't people see the opportunity to make $'s and start building additional facilities to meet the demand? Yes, scarcity/expense of land can be issues...but those are issues in both countries. However, within a 200 mile radius (40,000 sq miles) from my house I can find MORE than 200 dynos to test my car. From the research I have done there is under 100 in all of the UK. So in under half the area....we have more than double the facilities in the US.

I just don't make things up and fantasize ....that maybe.... through sheer will and determination...I can make my opinion right....I actually try to back up my opinion with facts...I suggest you try to do the same.

Tom

TMC M5

Here is the problem with that...and this is a problem here in the U.S.....in Antarctica...or anywhere else people test their cars on a dyno....without a baseline for the stock car on that same dyno...the dyno #'s don't mean much. If your car does 450rwhp...what does that mean? Some people will come up with a magic formula that says there is 18% parasitic loss from crank to the wheels. Others will say that particular dyno is 20% loss...or it is the infamous "heartbreaker" which is "at least" 35% loss.. People start pulling %'s out of the air and if you thought there was arguing before....just wait...

Alternatively, if your car had put down 400rwhp pre-tune on that dyno under the same conditions (i.e. corrected to the same ambient conditions)...then yeah..I would say you picked up 50rwhp...and would be more than happy to have my humble pie.....although I like mine a'la mode...

That is why I run at the same old Dynojet dyno after every mod. I even went to another Dynojet dyno just to make sure the other one was "honest". I was able to get within 2 rwhp of the other one...so I was satisfied with the accuracy.

Tom

sound 8

I think it boils down to this...people in the UK (Europe in general) have very limited access to quality dynos and drag tracks. So tuners over there can completely exaggerate their performance claims with no one ever calling them out.



Tom[/QUOTE]

Tom, this is your quote!
I haven't mentioned any names, or tuners! Your wriggling now by trying to include names such as McLaren. Your quote is clearly implying that we are a bunch of carrot crunchers,I think it's your nerves that have been touched.
Nearly every F1 team is in the UK. Their Dyno's are the most advanced in the world, along with wind tunnels etc, and you can hire them. You obviously read a lot and occasionally take your car to the drag strip, that doesn't make you a Lewis Hamilton. Try to be more modest, try to loose gracefully, you made a huge **** up, try not to justify it!