SL55/63/65/R230 AMG: How bad is the stock V12TT intercooling system.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 631
Likes: 2
From: Paris.
E320
How bad is the stock V12TT intercooling system.
According to many things I have read here, The stock intercooling system on V12 TT engines is inefficient, and it's the first thing to upgrade.
Is it really that bad ?
Is it requiered to upgrade the pump in any case or only if you plan to upgrade the engine and/or track the car ?
What are the main issues with the stock pump ?
I have read somwhere here that the pump is not always pumping the fluid. it does it only when the IAT climbs and that it's possible to wire it to make it pumping all the time
True ?
Is it really that bad ?
Is it requiered to upgrade the pump in any case or only if you plan to upgrade the engine and/or track the car ?
What are the main issues with the stock pump ?
I have read somwhere here that the pump is not always pumping the fluid. it does it only when the IAT climbs and that it's possible to wire it to make it pumping all the time
True ?
Super Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 603
Likes: 2
From: Asheville, Atlanta
SL 65 AMG, Porsche 911 (993), 2014 Cayenne GTS, 2013 Toyota Highlander Limited
reliability
I had to replace an air temperature cooler pump motor that works with intercooler..........$ 360.00..........
I think it is a weak spot on this V-12 car along with the coil packs, ignition module (and suspension struts).......
I think it is a weak spot on this V-12 car along with the coil packs, ignition module (and suspension struts).......
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 166
Likes: 1
From: Houston, TX
18 Titan XD 13 Cayenne TT 13 BMW HP4
You need to be able to look at the intake air temps (I use a Scangauge 2). My symptoms were watching that temp rise with the water temp and not cooling when opening the throttle (would get as high as 200 degF). There are a few threads on this.
Super Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 603
Likes: 2
From: Asheville, Atlanta
SL 65 AMG, Porsche 911 (993), 2014 Cayenne GTS, 2013 Toyota Highlander Limited
replace when....
+1...previous post says it all........that was the detail I had from the tech who replaced it...
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 741
Likes: 6
From: SIN CITY
CL65
According to many things I have read here, The stock intercooling system on V12 TT engines is inefficient, and it's the first thing to upgrade.
Is it really that bad ?
Is it requiered to upgrade the pump in any case or only if you plan to upgrade the engine and/or track the car ?
What are the main issues with the stock pump ?
I have read somwhere here that the pump is not always pumping the fluid. it does it only when the IAT climbs and that it's possible to wire it to make it pumping all the time
True ?
Is it really that bad ?
Is it requiered to upgrade the pump in any case or only if you plan to upgrade the engine and/or track the car ?
What are the main issues with the stock pump ?
I have read somwhere here that the pump is not always pumping the fluid. it does it only when the IAT climbs and that it's possible to wire it to make it pumping all the time
True ?
I have a 5gallon ice/water tank in the trunk(spare tire area) with a Johnson cm30 pump feeding the intercoolers upfront as soon as I turn the car on. I'm running some serious mods and making 660rwhp. Last night I filled the tank up with ice and went for an HOUR long "cruise." it was about 55deg out. After some highways pulls, light to light sprints and a stop for some 100 octane, I pulled in the garage my iat's were still around 100deg, intercoolers were "barely" cool to the touch and the water was still cold in the tank. Sprints on the highway would drop the iat's down into the 70-80's. Prob is with the stock system is that is does not flow enough and the pump is designed to come on when the intake temps get high(140deg). At that point it's too late, the car starts pulling timing and runs like crap. And it will not lower the temps, just keep them from going higher which is does not do efficiently. I use a Dashdyno scan gauge.
Mods-
Speedriven intake
Speedriven intercoolers
Speedriven 100 oct tune & tcu
3.5" downpipes
200 cell cats
3" stainless steel exhaust
Burns mufflers
Ice/water resovoir in the trunk
Adding a front mount heat exchanger is next(and maybe meth)
Any questions pm me, as I'm never in this section
Last edited by 02cl55amg; Apr 8, 2012 at 05:56 PM.
Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 211
Likes: 1
From: SF Bay Area
2001 Lamborghini Diablo, 2009 SL65 (sold), 1998 CL600 (sold), 1989 560SEL (sold)
The stock HE is sandwiched between the AC condensor and the radiator. No idea why MB thought that was a good idea. The intercoolors sit on top of the engine and soak up the heat when you stop the car. The intercoolor lines run alongside the exhaust manifolds.
More important than a new pump is to add a front HE. Besides additional surface area it adds more volume to the system.
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 631
Likes: 2
From: Paris.
E320
Very true-it stinks!(2005 cl65)
I have a 5gallon ice/water tank in the trunk(spare tire area) with a Johnson cm30 pump feeding the intercoolers upfront as soon as I turn the car on. I'm running some serious mods and making 660rwhp. Last night I filled the tank up with ice and went for an HOUR long "cruise." it was about 55deg out. After some highways pulls, light to light sprints and a stop for some 100 octane, I pulled in the garage my iat's were still around 100deg, intercoolers were "barely" cool to the touch and the water was still cold in the tank. Sprints on the highway would drop the iat's down into the 70-80's. Prob is with the stock system is that is does not flow enough and the pump is designed to come on when the intake temps get high(140deg). At that point it's too late, the car starts pulling timing and runs like crap. And it will not lower the temps, just keep them from going higher which is does not do efficiently. I use a Dashdyno scan gauge.
Mods-
Speedriven intake
Speedriven intercoolers
Speedriven 100 oct tune & tcu
3.5" downpipes
200 cell cats
3" stainless steel exhaust
Burns mufflers
Ice/water resovoir in the trunk
Adding a front mount heat exchanger is next(and maybe meth)
Any questions pm me, as I'm never in this section
I have a 5gallon ice/water tank in the trunk(spare tire area) with a Johnson cm30 pump feeding the intercoolers upfront as soon as I turn the car on. I'm running some serious mods and making 660rwhp. Last night I filled the tank up with ice and went for an HOUR long "cruise." it was about 55deg out. After some highways pulls, light to light sprints and a stop for some 100 octane, I pulled in the garage my iat's were still around 100deg, intercoolers were "barely" cool to the touch and the water was still cold in the tank. Sprints on the highway would drop the iat's down into the 70-80's. Prob is with the stock system is that is does not flow enough and the pump is designed to come on when the intake temps get high(140deg). At that point it's too late, the car starts pulling timing and runs like crap. And it will not lower the temps, just keep them from going higher which is does not do efficiently. I use a Dashdyno scan gauge.
Mods-
Speedriven intake
Speedriven intercoolers
Speedriven 100 oct tune & tcu
3.5" downpipes
200 cell cats
3" stainless steel exhaust
Burns mufflers
Ice/water resovoir in the trunk
Adding a front mount heat exchanger is next(and maybe meth)
Any questions pm me, as I'm never in this section
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
7 Craziest Things AMG Gas Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
New Electric Mercedes-AMG GT 4-Door Coupe Unveiled: 10 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
6 Mercedes Models That Did NOT Age Well (But Are Somehow Still Cool)
Verdad Gallardo
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 631
Likes: 2
From: Paris.
E320
(Speaking for the 2009 SL65 only, not sure if others are the same)
The stock HE is sandwiched between the AC condensor and the radiator. No idea why MB thought that was a good idea. The intercoolors sit on top of the engine and soak up the heat when you stop the car. The intercoolor lines run alongside the exhaust manifolds.
More important than a new pump is to add a front HE. Besides additional surface area it adds more volume to the system.
The stock HE is sandwiched between the AC condensor and the radiator. No idea why MB thought that was a good idea. The intercoolors sit on top of the engine and soak up the heat when you stop the car. The intercoolor lines run alongside the exhaust manifolds.
More important than a new pump is to add a front HE. Besides additional surface area it adds more volume to the system.
The intersting thing is that he wrapped the intercoolers with some golden material probably to protect them from engine heat.
Last edited by DCMETRO22Z; Apr 8, 2012 at 06:30 PM.
Super Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
From: Raleigh NC
2007 E63, 2006 C55
RE: Stock Intercooler
If your IC pump is bad, you will notice significant performance reductions with a warm engine, and also probably a rough idle. Measuring IAT temps will confirm, dealer can do it easily via STAR.
I had my IC pump replaced in 2010, with a supposed "updated design part", and have had no IC issues at all since. Dealer notified me of a bad pump via high IAT readings when I was in for service, my car was also down on power on warm days.
For what it's worth, my HE is in front of the condensor, they must have started putting them between the radiator/condensor for who knows what reason.....or because the 65 has a bigger HE than the 600?
IMO the factory IC system may not be oval track day optimal, but performs just fine in the real world when working properly.
I had my IC pump replaced in 2010, with a supposed "updated design part", and have had no IC issues at all since. Dealer notified me of a bad pump via high IAT readings when I was in for service, my car was also down on power on warm days.
For what it's worth, my HE is in front of the condensor, they must have started putting them between the radiator/condensor for who knows what reason.....or because the 65 has a bigger HE than the 600?
IMO the factory IC system may not be oval track day optimal, but performs just fine in the real world when working properly.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,155
Likes: 20
From: Southern, CA.
V12-Biturbo
Very true-it stinks!(2005 cl65)
I have a 5gallon ice/water tank in the trunk(spare tire area) with a Johnson cm30 pump feeding the intercoolers upfront as soon as I turn the car on. I'm running some serious mods and making 660rwhp. Last night I filled the tank up with ice and went for an HOUR long "cruise." it was about 55deg out. After some highways pulls, light to light sprints and a stop for some 100 octane, I pulled in the garage my iat's were still around 100deg, intercoolers were "barely" cool to the touch and the water was still cold in the tank. Sprints on the highway would drop the iat's down into the 70-80's. Prob is with the stock system is that is does not flow enough and the pump is designed to come on when the intake temps get high(140deg). At that point it's too late, the car starts pulling timing and runs like crap. And it will not lower the temps, just keep them from going higher which is does not do efficiently. I use a Dashdyno scan gauge.
Mods-
Speedriven intake
Speedriven intercoolers
Speedriven 100 oct tune & tcu
3.5" downpipes
200 cell cats
3" stainless steel exhaust
Burns mufflers
Ice/water resovoir in the trunk
Adding a front mount heat exchanger is next(and maybe meth)
Any questions pm me, as I'm never in this section
I have a 5gallon ice/water tank in the trunk(spare tire area) with a Johnson cm30 pump feeding the intercoolers upfront as soon as I turn the car on. I'm running some serious mods and making 660rwhp. Last night I filled the tank up with ice and went for an HOUR long "cruise." it was about 55deg out. After some highways pulls, light to light sprints and a stop for some 100 octane, I pulled in the garage my iat's were still around 100deg, intercoolers were "barely" cool to the touch and the water was still cold in the tank. Sprints on the highway would drop the iat's down into the 70-80's. Prob is with the stock system is that is does not flow enough and the pump is designed to come on when the intake temps get high(140deg). At that point it's too late, the car starts pulling timing and runs like crap. And it will not lower the temps, just keep them from going higher which is does not do efficiently. I use a Dashdyno scan gauge.
Mods-
Speedriven intake
Speedriven intercoolers
Speedriven 100 oct tune & tcu
3.5" downpipes
200 cell cats
3" stainless steel exhaust
Burns mufflers
Ice/water resovoir in the trunk
Adding a front mount heat exchanger is next(and maybe meth)
Any questions pm me, as I'm never in this section
My SL turns that similar 5.5 gallon res stuffed w/Ice (4-5 bags) into luke warm water inside res tank in 30 min of driving. But IC's are cool to touch, but after a solid hour engine will be hott, still able to touch IC's but warmer than 1st 30 min, though in 55 degree Ambient outside temps it runs like a raped ape for that full hour..
I think my vented hood def keeps IC's a lot cooler for longer, I had basically same mods prior to my MishaDesigns bodykit, I can see def dif w/vented hood etc..
If you don't have dual pumps running continuously the car will pull timing & run noticably slower after any prolonged use.
PS gotta ditch the metal Scorpion intakes, & or Stock abs plastic stk intakes, I made 1 outtve Silicone tubing/C-clamps & big lampshade foam airfilters (custom gutted factory holes to run air filters outside engine bay. I ran huge 4.75" DIA tubing vs metal scorpions @ 2.75"-3" I redynoed vs stk boxes & made nearly 50 rwhp thru ENTIRE curve, not just peak, also my gas mileage encreased by 5+ mpg didn't expect that whatsoever)
New true CAI is 1 of the BEST mods you can do to battle IAT's..
Last edited by Thericker; Apr 8, 2012 at 08:08 PM.
Super Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 741
Likes: 6
From: SIN CITY
CL65
From your description it sounds like you're ONLY running 1 CM30 pump up front in stk locale? I'm using (2) CM30's (1) up front in stk locale, then a (2nd) CM30 right next to reservoir set to run continuously whenever car is on..
My SL turns that similar 5.5 gallon res stuffed w/Ice (4-5 bags) into luke warm water inside res tank in 30 min of driving. But IC's are cool to touch, but after a solid hour engine will be hott, still able to touch IC's but warmer than 1st 30 min, though in 55 degree Ambient outside temps it runs like a raped ape for that full hour..
I think my vented hood def keeps IC's a lot cooler for longer, I had basically same mods prior to my MishaDesigns bodykit, I can see def dif w/vented hood etc..
If you don't have dual pumps running continuously the car will pull timing & run noticably slower after any prolonged use.
PS gotta ditch the metal Scorpion intakes, & or Stock abs plastic stk intakes, I made 1 outtve Silicone tubing/C-clamps & big lampshade foam airfilters (custom gutted factory holes to run air filters outside engine bay. I ran huge 4.75" DIA tubing vs metal scorpions @ 2.75"-3" I redynoed vs stk boxes & made nearly 50 rwhp thru ENTIRE curve, not just peak, also my gas mileage encreased by 5+ mpg didn't expect that whatsoever)
New true CAI is 1 of the BEST mods you can do to battle IAT's..
My SL turns that similar 5.5 gallon res stuffed w/Ice (4-5 bags) into luke warm water inside res tank in 30 min of driving. But IC's are cool to touch, but after a solid hour engine will be hott, still able to touch IC's but warmer than 1st 30 min, though in 55 degree Ambient outside temps it runs like a raped ape for that full hour..
I think my vented hood def keeps IC's a lot cooler for longer, I had basically same mods prior to my MishaDesigns bodykit, I can see def dif w/vented hood etc..
If you don't have dual pumps running continuously the car will pull timing & run noticably slower after any prolonged use.
PS gotta ditch the metal Scorpion intakes, & or Stock abs plastic stk intakes, I made 1 outtve Silicone tubing/C-clamps & big lampshade foam airfilters (custom gutted factory holes to run air filters outside engine bay. I ran huge 4.75" DIA tubing vs metal scorpions @ 2.75"-3" I redynoed vs stk boxes & made nearly 50 rwhp thru ENTIRE curve, not just peak, also my gas mileage encreased by 5+ mpg didn't expect that whatsoever)
New true CAI is 1 of the BEST mods you can do to battle IAT's..
X2(hey, we agree on something
) Just no room under my hood to squeeze much in there.
Ive tried to tackle the cold air induction, I had fabbed up some filterless pipes from the turbos to the front scoops which looked like it should work, but misfires at the track and and no ***** for street use yielded no results- scorpion intake for now.
I was shocked to see the intercoolers, iat's and trunk res all still cool after an hour. I know 55deg is cool, but I've had the ice turn into warm water plenty of more times with lower temps and shorter runs
I run 1 pump in the trunk, ive heard people going either way with 1 or 2-you think I'll benefit?
Post a pic of your cold air induction. 50rwhp- That's awesome! I also thought of venting the hot air from the hood by removing the grill on the hood(windshield wiper sprays) to see is that would help, but did not want to start hacking and dismantling the car.
I'll dig up a picture of my fabbed pipes
Last edited by 02cl55amg; Apr 9, 2012 at 03:53 AM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 9,155
Likes: 20
From: Southern, CA.
V12-Biturbo
Yo bro glad to put differences in past..
[/B]
X2(hey, we agree on something)
Just no room under my hood to squeeze much in there.
Ive tried to tackle the cold air induction, I had fabbed up some filterless pipes from the turbos to the front scoops which looked like it should work, but misfires at the track and and no ***** for street use yielded no results- scorpion intake for now.
I was shocked to see the intercoolers, iat's and trunk res all still cool after an hour. I know 55deg is cool, but I've had the ice turn into warm water plenty of more times with lower temps and shorter runs
I run 1 pump in the trunk, ive heard people going either way with 1 or 2-you think I'll benefit?
Post a pic of your cold air induction. 50rwhp- That's awesome! I also thought of venting the hot air from the hood by removing the grill on the hood(windshield wiper sprays) to see is that would help, but did not want to start hacking and dismantling the car.
I'll dig up a picture of my fabbed pipes
X2(hey, we agree on something
) Just no room under my hood to squeeze much in there.
Ive tried to tackle the cold air induction, I had fabbed up some filterless pipes from the turbos to the front scoops which looked like it should work, but misfires at the track and and no ***** for street use yielded no results- scorpion intake for now.
I was shocked to see the intercoolers, iat's and trunk res all still cool after an hour. I know 55deg is cool, but I've had the ice turn into warm water plenty of more times with lower temps and shorter runs
I run 1 pump in the trunk, ive heard people going either way with 1 or 2-you think I'll benefit?
Post a pic of your cold air induction. 50rwhp- That's awesome! I also thought of venting the hot air from the hood by removing the grill on the hood(windshield wiper sprays) to see is that would help, but did not want to start hacking and dismantling the car.
I'll dig up a picture of my fabbed pipes
Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 211
Likes: 1
From: SF Bay Area
2001 Lamborghini Diablo, 2009 SL65 (sold), 1998 CL600 (sold), 1989 560SEL (sold)
If I start with a cold engine, ambient temps around 60F, my IATs will be around 100-110F at 70mph, dipping below 100 when I open the throttle and rising to 120-130F when sitting at a stop light. Once I stop the car and let it sit for 5 minutes or more IATs start at 170, stabilize to 130-140 at 70pmh, and dip to 120 when I open the throttle.
Basically its game over once you have to stop the car and let the heat of the engine soak into the intercoolers and intake mounted on top. For example, last summer it was 90F ambient. I took the car to lunch. Stopped for 30 minutes. We I got out and got on the gas on the entrance to the highway power was noticeably down. You just don't feel that kick from the turbos that you normally get at 3000rpm. Feels more like a 400hp car instead of a 600hp car.
Basically its game over once you have to stop the car and let the heat of the engine soak into the intercoolers and intake mounted on top. For example, last summer it was 90F ambient. I took the car to lunch. Stopped for 30 minutes. We I got out and got on the gas on the entrance to the highway power was noticeably down. You just don't feel that kick from the turbos that you normally get at 3000rpm. Feels more like a 400hp car instead of a 600hp car.
Super Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 939
Likes: 5
From: Del Mar, CA
2003 CL600 2005 745Li
Last edited by 1995E320Cab; Apr 9, 2012 at 06:36 PM.
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
R230 SL600
Hi Guys,
I bought a 2004, SL600, R230, RHD, earlier this year. The car had a bad turbo on it and was blowing smoke from an exhaust. I have subsequently removed the engine, had the turbos rebuilt and planned on refitting the engine as standard.
The car has some Brabus decals and other bits and pieces on it. It has the CATs then nothing straight through to the rear. I have chatted to a very good local tuning company and will plug car in to see if it was ever chipped buy Brabus. I have looked at MB site and decided in any case i am going to work on the coolers. I know the space under the bonnet is very tight, but I am going to make a pair of coolers from 4 stock units. I am changing the front suspension pipes to give me a space under the from of car, so can fit an extra cooler in their. the quad coolers will be 180% over stock and the air to water cooling will be up to 200%, changing the plumbing both larger and away from the lump and with duel pumps I should overcome the after cooling issues.
Has anyone done any work on 230 600 cooling before?
I bought a 2004, SL600, R230, RHD, earlier this year. The car had a bad turbo on it and was blowing smoke from an exhaust. I have subsequently removed the engine, had the turbos rebuilt and planned on refitting the engine as standard.
The car has some Brabus decals and other bits and pieces on it. It has the CATs then nothing straight through to the rear. I have chatted to a very good local tuning company and will plug car in to see if it was ever chipped buy Brabus. I have looked at MB site and decided in any case i am going to work on the coolers. I know the space under the bonnet is very tight, but I am going to make a pair of coolers from 4 stock units. I am changing the front suspension pipes to give me a space under the from of car, so can fit an extra cooler in their. the quad coolers will be 180% over stock and the air to water cooling will be up to 200%, changing the plumbing both larger and away from the lump and with duel pumps I should overcome the after cooling issues.
Has anyone done any work on 230 600 cooling before?
Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 166
Likes: 5
From: Sunny So Cal
Sl65, SL600 RENNtech, Verde Ithaca LP640, 3 highly modified Panteras, Maserati Biturbo, 300D turtle
Considering doing RENNTech chip upgrade along with their intercooler pump upgrade. Is that combo worth considering? Was just thinking chip upgrade alone, but now reading here maybe good idea to do pump upgrade as well since I figure performance chip upgrade may create more heat to deal with. No?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 59
CL65
Considering doing RENNTech chip upgrade along with their intercooler pump upgrade. Is that combo worth considering? Was just thinking chip upgrade alone, but now reading here maybe good idea to do pump upgrade as well since I figure performance chip upgrade may create more heat to deal with. No?
You are correct, the additional power will create more heat. Spend a little time searching on here and you will find there are much more affordable/effective ways to help limit the heat soak than the renntech kit with a re-labeled pump. I think the most important thing to add first is a supplemental heat exchange with a larger pump that runs when ever the car is running. Similar to the Renntech kit but larger, more powerful and cheaper by sourcing your own ingredients.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,214
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
The scorpion intakes suck in hot air from under the hood. That is already costing you big power and is very taxing on your intercoolers and leads to heat soak very quickly.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,181
Likes: 59
CL65
The vented hood may help with letting some of the heat out since you will be sucking in hot air as mentioned with the scorpion tubes. Cooler intake air at the filters will make it easier to maintain temps. Without a supplemental heat exchange the trunk tank will eventually heat up. The overall temp of circulating fluid will get hotter, if you are only relying on the stock HE to dissipate the heat, the extra volume may be too much when you start to make more power with a tune. A lot of hot coolant + same size HE= less heat transfer and more heat. IATs will climb.
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
2008 CL65
I have a 216 cl65. The original connector and pump had been replaced in the past and not original. The connector on the car has 3 wires and the bosch pump has only 2. The bosch is supposed to be plug and play, unfortunately the car connector is sold with the whole harness for $600. Appreciate if anyone knows how to connect the 3 wire to the 2 wire.
