Twinturbo

There is an amazing similarity between the SV12 and the SL65. In fact, the SL65 is basically a loaded SL55, with the F1 performance package thrown in, the brabus V12 (which shouldnt be a hard task), and the Nurberging suspension package, probably just like the Brabus suspension and wow, you have an SL65.

This means basically everyone else out there has previously and will always be able to have an "SL65". I would like to see how the SV12, compares to the SL65. Does anyone have both perormance figures from an independant testing? This should rule out any conservativeness etc. Also, what would the price differences be between and SV12 and an SL65, or the re-worked SL55 as mentioned above.

Brabus and AMG seemed to have copied each other, are their engines any different? If they are, then a combo of the two could bring even more power!

Anyway, if the AMG wanted the SL65 to have a serious power edge, than they shouls have waited for the toughened up seven speed, which will be able to handle 1200nm. In fact, those people wondering what Brabus will do to modify the SL65, well they cant do much until the new gearbox is available, which will probably and hopefully be able to be retrofitted later on. This engine will be one of the most amazing and powerful production engines on Earth. I cant wait till the new design V12's arrive!

Bilal

While I have no personal experience, I can't seem to trust Brabus as much as AMG when it comes to tuning. Brabus do offer a three year warranty, but even thats not enough for me personally. You see, AMG's cars are all regulated by MERCEDES safety and reliability legislations. AMG spend countless years developing an engine. IF any of you have rear the AMG press release regarding the testing and building of the 65 engine you will be baffled. From memory, the engine work started back in 2001. They made 50 prototype 65 engines, placed them in various debadged cars and took them to Africe, Europe and Sweden for extreme testing. They modofy gear ratios, transmission logic, brakes, suspension.Then the prototypes were taken onto Mercedes' own Papenburg test track and tested for hours on end to determine top speed and which tyres are the safest, not to mention engine reliability. And then comes the dreaded question of limiter removal...

Unfortunately, we have to mention every time: You cannot compare a Vmax derestriction from AMG with a simple activation / deactivation of some features within the engine control unit (RCU). AMG uploads a complete new / completely different software. In our opinion, the price tag is more than justified for what you get.


A safe Vmax is determined for every single model with countless hours on special race tracks (i.e. Nardo, Italy)

AMG tests many different tire brands for their compability with Mercedes-Benz safety regulations

The new software is being developed for every model separately and is adopted to match the characteristics of every model

Depending on the model, further modifications are included (second fuel pump to avoid fatal engine damage, speedometer,... - link )



The results of these extensive tests are then used by the RCU engineers. Many other important factors like engine cooling, ESP adoption, reprogramming fuel pressure and the necessary amount of fuel (for every RPM), transmission ratio,...

The standard RCUs have definitively no parameters / data for driving beyond 250 km/h (155 mph). That's a fact! That's why it is impossible to compare the Vmax of the manufacturer (-> AMG) with the tinkering of any tuner. Technically you are right by saying that manipulating a speedometer signal is pretty easy (that's why every little tuner is offering it). So, you are always using the pushing every parameter on the engine to (or even over) it's limit by driving 250+ km/h (155+ mph). But everybody can choose to modify his Vmax how he wants to...


Then the 65 model is born...

Brabus on the other hand, order an SL600, take off the limiter, with their own "special way" hoik the engine out. What AMG does here is build its engine from scratch, at the end of an AMG engines development over 90% of engine components are unique to the AMG engine. Brabus on the other hand can't even modify the turbos, so all they do is add bigger displacement (6.3) and increase boost pressure on the turbos. And all this just to get the 640hp and 1000NM. Which is capped. Compare to AMG who have built the engine from the ground up AND have managed to get 700bhp+ and 12000NM of torque from 6.0L, did you know that a 65 engine can and does produce that much if it weren't for AMG's engine limits for the sake of the transmission?

After Brabus has modified the engine, they add a "couple" of driveline reinforcements, add 20inch unsafe wheels, bigger brakes, lowered suspension a couple of logos here and there and you have a Brabus SV12...

Then comes performance, once AMS a well known German mag tested the SV12, they got 0-200kph (124mph) in 12.9/13.0 seconds, and 0-186mph in 43 seconds. It topped out at 205mph, although Brabus said it would do 208mph 0-186mph for the SL55 is 43-45 seconds. So what are you paying 250K to Brabus for?

An AMG SL65 is reported to do 0-124mph in 12.9 seconds and should do 208mph, tests of this car will eventually tell. But it is safe to say, you cannot compare Brabus with AMG.



It may be the case that your 600 models are putting out close to 600bhp stock, and upto 650hp after ECU remaps. Comapre this to AMG cars which dyno at close to real 500bhp, and then you wonder, if the SL65 will dyno close to 612hp then whats the point of buying such an expensive car when you can mod an SL600 to match its performance?

Well if you tae into consideration how AMG build the car around the engine, test it to its death, and do all things the Mercedes way, I think its fairly justified to say charging 200K for a 612hp car which will do 500k miles reliably, is a bargain....

There you have it, the differences between AMG/Brabus and aftermarket ECU changers. With the latter, you do get 650hp form simple ECU change and all for a couple of thousand dollars, but can your car cope? Maybe it will, maybe not, time will tell.

At the end of the day, your choice, go with Brabus or renntech or whatever. But ALWAYS remember that no-one does it better than AMG......

Twinturbo

I know you are an amid AMG fan and everything, and your opinions ARE slightly biased. There are something's that I will point out to you.

OK AMG may spend more time testing their engines, but an elite group seem to also be able to work on an engine previously reliable and improve on it, and come up with a reliable engine. Reliability is a factor for Brabus, in fact they had one customer with a serious engine upgrade and hated servicing his car. Four years or so later he returned and had done 380 000km. The engine was ticking fine. Therfore saying that Brabus engines are unreliable is a false statement, especially thinking back to some of the previous stories with SL55 engines blowing up.

Regarding V Max, I do not see why speed has anything to do with the ECU, apart from disabling the fuel cut-out, as it only deals with engine revs. As far as I know, road speed is not at all measured in the engine management apart from restricting fuel flow at 250km/h.

Brabus also replaced the engine internals with forged items, in the SV12 at least, replacing the crank, conrods and pistons. And, for your information, Brabus also restricts engine power to 1000nm, as it is capable of 1200nm, but is restricted by the tranny. Mercedes also deems it appropriate to up the boost on the engine, as amazingly the MAybach also has a significant boost increase, I think around the same as the SV12.

And I also think that your performance figures are wrong, I dont know them off the top of my head, but the SV12 is significantly faster than the SL55, so I will ignore whatever crap you wrote in that paragraph.

No it is not that I dont like AMG, but I also like Brabus, and think you are simply being biased in your opinion and therefore I see the need to correct you. In simple terms, I thought that AMG seemed to rip off Brabus and copy everything they did and call it an SL65, and had to test it to make sure it met Mercedes standards. For this reason I was asking for a simple comparison between the SL65 and the Brabus SV12, in terms of performance and price.

Feel free to argue but I seemed to have covered all the negatives you have said, and should open your eyes and see the whole story. I have wasted enough time proving so and need to finish my homework for school, so maybe some investigation will suprises you and hopefully will see the good that Brabus has achieved.

stephens

Bilal
ECU maps are based on engine load/airpressure/temp/throttle position etc from a mapping perspective the ECU does not care what the cars speed is.
Granted on some models, AMG does more than modify a simple variable, but on many, in reality thats all there is to it. If not tuners would not be able to disable the Vmax by changing the variable value, because as Ronald from the German AMG user forum has pointed out on many occaisions, there is no map there, AMG creates it. If this were true, if there was no map there, how would the car run?
I tend to treat alot of the German user posts with a grain of salt as the facts do not seem to support their theories.

Bilal

Stephens my post regarding limiters was just cut and pasted from what someone at the AMG Owners Club said, if they're lying, then I don't mind getting ripped off by AMG If I want my limiter removed, for goodness sake you're buying their cars, don't you think they know better?


Thats a touchy topic, I have no insight into it, so I'll let the experts do what they're doing....

Ok, so I may be a bit against Brabus regarding they're tuning packages and prices, but I will dispute one fact for you...

here are two tests conducted by German mag AMS....


http://www.einszweidrei.de/mercedes/...sv122003-2.htm

http://www.einszweidrei.de/mercedes/...sv122003-1.htm



Just for comparison, here is an SL600 test conducted by the same mag...

http://www.einszweidrei.de/mercedes/sl60003-3.htm


Stephens this is one of those times where I really need you to confirm that an AMG derestricted SL55 will do 0-186mph...in 43-45 seconds....as it was for the Brabus SV12 test above....funny how a car can be slower than the SL55 in some speeds (0-186mph) and slower than an SL600 at times? Don't you agree Twinturbo? Shouldn't the performance characteristics of a 640bhp car be different than that of a 500hp one?



:p


As for the difference at higher speeds, it may due to differing torque chracteristics of the V8K and V12 TT, and due to gearing,

I could buy a stock SL600, fit brabus 19inch wheels for traction, get a renntech ECU upgrade, get it de-limited, (where from, you choose):p get the final axle ratio changed and I could be faster than any Brabus SV12 or indeed AMG car out there, did you know that? Even besting the Murcielago....


Stephens, I know this is stupid but would you perhaps know the 0-186mph times for the Lambo Gallardo? Maybe some independent testing in Western Australia ?

Twinturbo

I am having trouble comprehending the german tests, as they are very strange times indeed. Because there independent, many factors could be affecting them, such as the tire and wheel choices, the testing strip, temperature etc, as these factors will play a big part in cars such as these.

I have no idea where these sources come from, but to be accurate, all three cars need to be tested at the same time, place etc. This can be in fact almost confirmed that the variables have affected times, as the two SV12' s have a big difference between them, while it is the same car and engine except for a possibility of a different wheel combo. By the way I cannot compare to the SL55 as no times were mentioned for them in your links.

Changing the gearing will not affect top speed, as the newer Brabus is still limited, but at a higher speed. Acceleration to may be affected, but does anyone know the theoretical top speed of the car by maxing out in 5'th? It probably wouldn't be much faster than the speed limiter, so if there was no limiter than changing the gearing would affect top speed provided the car still had enough power.

AS for the "Dangerous 20 inch wheels you had mentioned earlier, well Brabus has made the only tyre choice for the SV12 now 20 inch by what I understand on your link. This means that Brabus obviously thinks that only 20 inch wheels can cope with the new high speed, previouly limited by the tyres speed rating.

The best would to have a one day test testing the SL55, SL600, Brabus SV12 all unlimited, and maybe chuck in the Gallardo in there too, my second favourite car. Oh by the way, yes I'll do some independent testing once you provide me with any of those cars! (And you will have to find someone brave enough to accompany me, im still on my learners. )

SL65amgOwner

The thing with the brabus models, is that they don't always appear controllable. They always seem to have too much power. I know that it sounds weird, but it is true. The traction control just goes crazy when the pedal is slammed. The Sl65 AMG does also, but not as much.

Timeless

Holy necro threads Batman!

bigmac834

Are you talking about this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RBZC6UZp_MA&feature=related

Because that is not 640 hp....Thats a beast!