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I'm pretty sure all orings were sitting properly in the groove on each side of the injectors. It's possible to mess things up when pushing the injectors inside the hole by forcing them to roll up and down the groove. I tried my best to avoid it though. Tried a small touch of oil on each oring. In any event, I'm having the same exact issue as before the injector job, so I'd say I probably fixed something but definitely not the start issue. The retainer clips are all done properly. I can say that cause they click once they sit where they suppose to sit.
The engine tries to roll but halts quickly. I'll upload a video.
The car won't get to the point to register any faulty codes. This is just my guess cause I know I have faulty codes but I've checked multiple times but nothing came up. I'll check again tonight. I have to say I removed all of the codes in previous stages of troubleshooting. I have pictures of previous codes though. You can see all of them on this thread.
Any specific actual value you're looking for? I can take pictures of the values.
Question, what if I remove the air intake pipes and the intake manifold to have a better view of the injectors and then turn the key to see where exactly the fuel leak is? Would that be something to try?
Went through some busy days and didn't get a chance to work on the car a whole lot.
Tested all the injectors. 12 volts applied to each of them. All good except two. Not sure which ones though. I should've numbered them by cylinder # when I took them out. The problem w/ the faulty injectors was they'd pass the fuel even w/o voltage applied. A good injector blocks the fuel when not hot. Both injectors were replaced w/ the stock OEM parts from FCPEuro (the blue Bosch injectors) costing around $50 per piece. Dealer was asking $200+ per piece. That was a "no thanks" for me.
Also fuel filter was replaced. Absolute pain in the neck if you don't have your car on a post jack. Crawling under the car and reaching out for the fuel filter in that tight space was no fun.
BUT, replacing the injectors didn't fix the car. I don't think it's the fuel pump either. I'm guessing there's a vacuum somewhere right before or after fuel reaches the engine.
One thing that keeps happening is a flood of fuel around the injectors on cylinder 6 and 7 that I had misfire. It happens every time I turn the key. That tells I have fuel pressure to the injectors (although I can't tell how much of a pressure). It also tells fuel is escaping the system somewhere along the line.
Any ideas what it could be? What if the cylinder head or engine body was cracked? Would you have fuel sitting on the top of the engine around the injectors?
Yellow arrow shows where fuel flood is around both injectors 6 and 7.
there was no external fuel leak before, right? (Diagnosed it was dumping into the cylinders)
And everything was clean and dry when you installed the injectors? Then I wouldn’t suspect anything to do with the head yet.
did you replace the o-rings on all the injectors you removed? Sometimes they can be reused, but if they were the originals from 02/03 it’s not likely they would survive being removed and installed. The light coat of oil on the orings is spot on when installing. I would solve this current fuel leak before delving into anything else.
On a related note - are you cranking the car by turning and holding the ignition/key to the start position? or turning the ignition On, then just bumping it to the start position and letting the ECU crank it? Or using the keyless go button if equipped?
you should be turning and holding the key in start during these crank attempts if you aren’t already, as in my experience the ECU will stop spinning the starter fairly quickly when something is amiss. I had a very similar short crank event When my car had a no start about two years ago. In my case I thankfully did not have any significant issues you are dealing with (Seemed as though all the fuel pressure bled off) , but I did have to turn and hold the key and after a seemingly long crank she fired up.
Do you have a star system or MB compatible diagnostic scanner?
there was no external fuel leak before, right? (Diagnosed it was dumping into the cylinders)
And everything was clean and dry when you installed the injectors? Then I wouldn’t suspect anything to do with the head yet.
Actually there was fuel around the injectors 6 and 7 before replacing the injectors. Same spot same amount. I couldn't tell it was fuel though. Seemed engine oil to my eyes. I'm pretty sure there was no flooded fuel before this issue started appearing.
Originally Posted by dRockSL55
did you replace the o-rings on all the injectors you removed? Sometimes they can be reused, but if they were the originals from 02/03 it’s not likely they would survive being removed and installed
On a related note - are you cranking the car by turning and holding the ignition/key to the start position? or turning the ignition On, then just bumping it to the start position and letting the ECU crank it? Or using the keyless go button if equipped?
Huh, never thought of this. I always just turn the key and let the ECU do the rest. I'll give it a try your way.
Originally Posted by dRockSL55
Do you have a star system or MB compatible diagnostic scanner?
I do. It's the star system but last time I checked there was no faulty code. I can only get a read of the actual values. A lot of tests need the car running in idle or the engine in running temperature. So I didn't try anything that could potentially make the situation worse.
Spent a few hours today replacing injectors all over again. I guess what I had was dirt between the injector and the hole where the injectors sit. Cleaned it up pretty good.
2 new injectors on cylinder 6 and 7 were moved to cylinder 2 and 3 to rule out faulty injector possibility.
The car started on the first try w/o hesitation. Idle was rough.
White smoke out of exhaust pipes like before.
White smoke also coming out of the engine compartment mostly on the passenger side (same side as the new injectors).
I let it go for a good 30 seconds. Smoke was getting worse and no sign of improvement. The only noticeable change was rpm dropping to a more idle-like after maybe 10 seconds.
Shut off the car for two reasons, 1) not sure what the cause of the smoke was especially the smoke from the engine compartment wasn't looking good. 2) I wanted to read the faulty codes before letting the car run longer.
Removed the air intake hoses and air intake manifold again to look for fuel around the injectors. All 8 injectors were dry. No sign of fuel leak.
Checked on the faulty codes. Nothing was registered in the engine section in the Star. No misfire. Maybe I fixed the misfire. Maybe the car didn't have enough time to register any codes.
I've had smoke coming out of the engine compartment before. That was due to oil from bad valve cover gasket dripping on the exhaust manifold and burning off. This time the smoke was much more maybe because oil build up was more, maybe not, I don't know.
I'm going to let the car to run a bit longer tomorrow. I have to get it out of the garage cause the whole garage was white in smoke after 30 seconds. I can only imagine what could've happened having the car running for 5 minutes inside.
Anything to watch for? Is it safe to drive the car to the driveway? Any idea what the white smoke might be for?
Spent a few hours today replacing injectors all over again. I guess what I had was dirt between the injector and the hole where the injectors sit. Cleaned it up pretty good.
2 new injectors on cylinder 6 and 7 were moved to cylinder 2 and 3 to rule out faulty injector possibility.
The car started on the first try w/o hesitation. Idle was rough.
White smoke out of exhaust pipes like before.
White smoke also coming out of the engine compartment mostly on the passenger side (same side as the new injectors).
I let it go for a good 30 seconds. Smoke was getting worse and no sign of improvement. The only noticeable change was rpm dropping to a more idle-like after maybe 10 seconds.
Shut off the car for two reasons, 1) not sure what the cause of the smoke was especially the smoke from the engine compartment wasn't looking good. 2) I wanted to read the faulty codes before letting the car run longer.
Removed the air intake hoses and air intake manifold again to look for fuel around the injectors. All 8 injectors were dry. No sign of fuel leak.
Checked on the faulty codes. Nothing was registered in the engine section in the Star. No misfire. Maybe I fixed the misfire. Maybe the car didn't have enough time to register any codes.
I've had smoke coming out of the engine compartment before. That was due to oil from bad valve cover gasket dripping on the exhaust manifold and burning off. This time the smoke was much more maybe because oil build up was more, maybe not, I don't know.
I'm going to let the car to run a bit longer tomorrow. I have to get it out of the garage cause the whole garage was white in smoke after 30 seconds. I can only imagine what could've happened having the car running for 5 minutes inside.
Anything to watch for? Is it safe to drive the car to the driveway? Any idea what the white smoke might be for?
Have you checked the coolant level? White smoke is the devil (as I understand) and is from coolant getting into the combustion chamber.
True. The coolant level is just about the same. For this amount of smoke I think I should have the coolant level noticeably lower than before. Don't you think so?
Tried to start the car... Nothing. Crank but no start. And again flooded fuel around injectors 6 and 7. I had a successful start last night without any fuel leak. Tonight no start and fuel leak around the injectors. I have fuel pressure up to the fuel delivery hose but no pressure after that. I'm thinking maybe the intake manifold gasket is gone. So basically fuel comes into the fuel rail, goes into each injector, and starts to leak out the gasket around injectors 6 and 7. Would a smoke test help finding the leak?
True. The coolant level is just about the same. For this amount of smoke I think I should have the coolant level noticeably lower than before. Don't you think so?
Not sure of the volume of liquid, but a small amount of coolant can cause quite a lot of smoke. Perhaps there is a gasket failure that is causing all of these related issues?
I went ahead to replace the intake manifold gaskets. There's no way for me to lift this bad boy. It's heavy as hell. Definitely needs a hoist or some sort of lift. There's a pool of fuel in the intake manifold towards the end of the engine on the driver side close to the flood of fuel pictured above. I don't know how to explain this. Fuel is inside and outside. It's obviously accumulating inside of the manifold and somehow finds its way out? Maybe a bad fuel pressure damper? But then that would explain the fuel inside. What makes it to leak outside?
What I did this morning was to see what exactly is happening to the injectors when I turn the key to ON position.
As you see in the pictures, I have fuel mainly out of injector #7. I say mainly cause I tried it twice. First time fuel came out of #7. All others were dry. You could say maybe the injector is faulty. Swapped the injector w/ one of the two injectors that I recently purchased. On the second try w/ injectors swapped I had fuel out of injector #7 and a bit out of #4. Can anyone explain what's happening here? Am I supposed to have any fuel out of the injectors when car isn't running?
Edit: Had to say I did one preliminary test to make sure all injectors are working fine when not energized. They're supposed to block the fuel. They let the fuel go through only when energized. So with all of them unplugged, I turned the key. Not even a drop of fuel in any of the bags. I had fuel up to the feeding hose though cause it was dripping since the nut was a bit loose.
This is the set-up. Plastic bags zip-tied to the injectors.
First key turn. Only the injector #7 leaked.
This is how much fuel was leaked from injector #7.
Second try, foreground is how much fuel was leaked out of injector #7 after swapping the injector w/ a known-to-be-good injector.
Second try, background is how much fuel was leaked out of injector #4.
I did some research on the topic. Same question asked on bimmerforums.com. Replies didn't make a whole lot of sense though. They say the ECU controls the injectors. True, but the ECU at bare minimum would probably know the car isn't cranked yet. Sending signals to the injectors to spray would be pointless given that the fuel would be wasted if the car never was fired up. I think when you turn the key, the fuel rail becomes pressurized and ready to go. That's it. If no attempt to crank, then no fuel for the cylinders. Fuel rail stays pressurized so long as key is ON position. Once switched to OFF or maybe to ACCESSORIES then the fuel rail stays pressurize for some time like 10 minutes maybe more or less depending on the car. Only after that the pressure drops and fuel goes back to the tank, if there's a return line. That's what makes sense to me unless some craziness is going on that changes the dynamic.
Two good links if you were interested, How Car Engines Work How Fuel Injection Systems Work
I think I found the problem. Injector #7 is grounded due to wiring issues. Went ahead to pop out the pins out of the connector to swap them w/ another pair. Couldn't get them out of the connector. It's either sealed and not supposed to be taken apart or I'd need some special tool/pick to release the pins out of the connector. Looking at the connector itself I don't see anything wrong with it. No rust on the pins, no damage to the wire. It could be something in the downstream I guess. The wiring harness is bundled together from each side of the engine going under the engine. From there probably going to the ECU. Trying to find more info on the wiring diagram.
I agree. Feels like walking on the edge of a cliff anytime you have mysterious engine or fuel issues but from what I understand so far my issue is probably something minor. My troubleshooting so far leads me to a grounded wire to the injectors. I have 12 volts up to the fuse. From there, wires go to the ECU wire pack #2 and then on their way to the injectors. Anything could happen to the wires from the ECU to the injector connectors. Seems like they go under the intake manifold from one side and come out from the other side. Space is very tight and my best bet would be to remove the intake manifold and see where the wires are traveling and look for a naked/stripped grounded wire. There are threads on this forum and other places saying yeah go ahead it's a piece of cake but I'm telling you this intake manifold is heavy. Definitely takes a minimum of 2 persons or some sort of machinery help to lift it.
As for SDS, I'm sure there's a lot you can do w/ the tool but it takes a reasonable confidence level to play around w/ it. For some of the tests you'd need the car running or the temp. of fluids high enough. Also sometimes the text is in German and hard to follow.
I agree. Feels like walking on the edge of a cliff anytime you have mysterious engine or fuel issues but from what I understand so far my issue is probably something minor. My troubleshooting so far leads me to a grounded wire to the injectors. I have 12 volts up to the fuse. From there, wires go to the ECU wire pack #2 and then on their way to the injectors. Anything could happen to the wires from the ECU to the injector connectors. Seems like they go under the intake manifold from one side and come out from the other side. Space is very tight and my best bet would be to remove the intake manifold and see where the wires are traveling and look for a naked/stripped grounded wire. There are threads on this forum and other places saying yeah go ahead it's a piece of cake but I'm telling you this intake manifold is heavy. Definitely takes a minimum of 2 persons or some sort of machinery help to lift it.
As for SDS, I'm sure there's a lot you can do w/ the tool but it takes a reasonable confidence level to play around w/ it. For some of the tests you'd need the car running or the temp. of fluids high enough. Also sometimes the text is in German and hard to follow.
I feel you man! If you were in Delaware or close to Delaware I'd like to give you a helping hand since I also have M113K equipped car and want to learn more about it.
Don't give up! Do one step at a time and you'll fix it! And while fixing you'll learn a lot and get tons of real experience!
Seems like the long project is coming to an end.
I took the intake manifold out to chase down the wiring harness going to the injectors and look for any sign of damaged or grounded wire. Wiring harness was looking good. So I put everything back together.
I have no issues with the injectors anymore. Don't ask how cause I have no idea. One possibility could be the fact that I had the ECU unplugged overnight.
Started the car. Heavy white smoke out of the exhaust but I could tell it was a different type of smoke than what I had before. The smoke was much much heavier w/ no unburned gas smell. Didn't rev at all. Only idle speed. It was obvious the engine wasn't happy.
Checked the engine oil cap. Smelled like gas. Gave the car an oil change. White smoke gone.
Read the codes. Driver side upstream o2 sensor error. I had the code before so pretty much it was shot.
Took a look at the upstream sensors. Very tight space on the passenger side. Driver side was OK. Ordered a pair anyway.
Replaced the driver side. Car runs much better and faulty code is gone. Live data is very similar on both side o2 sensors but decided to replace the other side as well.
Tried the passenger side sensor and couldn't get the old one loose. I should be able to break it loose with some penetrating spray + extra umph but not sure about torquing the new one in. There's little to no room. The torque wrench is supposed to be 90 degrees to the bolt. Seems impossible w/o taking other components out. I have to either hand torque it or do some crazy math to convert the 55 nm torque into a different number with an angle other than 90 degrees. It'll be quite ballpark at the end though. I have to say it would be much easier if the car was on post lift.
Any idea how to torque down the passenger side o2 sensor? Would you tackle it from top or bottom?
Dude Glad to hear you finally got her running better! Sorry I haven’t been around to check in been a busy month. That is a bizarre failure but good work getting it tracked down. I wonder if it was the ECM - a faulty #7 injector driver, or the wiring itself? Hard to know now that it is working. Injector driver faults within an ECM are rare but not unheard of, especially if it was an over current situation from a faulty injector that lead to it (ie shorted winding.) I just don’t think I’ve heard of one stop, and then start working normally again.
I think I personally would want to run a new patch wire from #7 to the ECM for the trigger just to rule that out as it’s easier than trying to find the break, solid soldered and heat shrunk connections. your call but it is easy to do. After catching this article on FCP a while back after this guys SL55 engine grenaded from a stuck open injector i can’t help but be worried about it https://blog.fcpeuro.com/the-engine-...after-one-week
thankfully you caught it before this, not while driving hard!
I would go for the o2 sensor from the bottom - but I don’t see how you will be able to torque it to spec at a 90° angle with a normal torque wrench. Just use your best judgement, remember this isn’t a head bolt or a cam gear you are reinstalling. A flex head wrench or crows foot adapter can make things easier. Good luck and good work!!
Thanks for the input. Always appreciated. A few comments just to keep the discussion going.
The story on FCP website is no fun but I found couple of puzzling pieces. First the smoke. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I know oil burning and gas burning make different types of smoke. So the driver should've stopped right away with that kind of trailing smoke. Second, I don't think you can bend a rod just by cranking the car. The bent rod most probably happened when he was cursing cruising on the highway.
This is what I experienced,
Back to my issue, I have to add, I hired someone to look for grounded wires or any electrical issues. He found none although he didn't seem to be so thorough.
Running new wires from injector #7 to the ECM is the best. The problem I'm thinking is I'd need to run the wires separate from the rest of the wires. The wires bundle together in a heat resistant type of loom right out of the fuse box and go under the intake manifold. The most exposed/not-much-protected part of the wires is after they come out of the other side of the intake manifold going into the injectors. I tried but couldn't find any sign of damage to the wires.
Am I following you on running new wires?
09-08-2020, 10:01 PM
