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E55 Twin Turbo

 
Old 03-04-2019, 02:58 PM
  #26  
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Turns out you canít flip the manifolds, the power steering pump is in the way

looks like im doing a rear mount setup then
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:47 PM
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Rear mount is a serious compromise; why not supercharge instead? You can get an entire engine and supercharger for a few thousand (used). It would probably even be easier to adapt a centrifugal supercharger to the W210 and drive it regularly, as opposed to the rear mount setups. You'll need a ton of custom piping, an oil cooler, pump, and you'll have figure out the correct oil restriction inlet size to keep from destroying the journal bearings or blowing out the seals into the turbine and compressor housings. Turbos don't always react well to being doused with water underneath the rear end, and there will be a lot of lag even under the best of circumstances. For all of their advantages, rear mount turbos have a ton of drawbacks as well.

Last edited by NAFT1; 03-04-2019 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:46 AM
  #28  
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Yes, plenty of room for a centrifugal setup. Makes more sense than a rear turbo system and would be much easier to engineer. The centrifugal units can be expensive but would probably be easier to tune and make power where it is needed in the NA 55, up top.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:49 AM
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I've always wondered why there weren't any Vortech or ATI kits marketed for these. they'd probably make decent power; I could easily see 100hp added from a decent tune and 6-7psi.
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Old 03-06-2019, 07:47 PM
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Yep, 7 PSI should add around 120 hp+-. Would start to get really fun around 20 PSI.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:32 AM
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Hmmmmm, have three Mercedes to drive....been a few years since I developed a one-off FI setup....anyone interested in working on a Vortech centrifugal liquid cooled 7-8psi setup? Should only be a about $4.5K in parts (use standard 2.5x multiplier to estimate actual costs).

Edit: someone has already done it- M113 CLK500

Last edited by NAFT1; 03-07-2019 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:15 PM
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With the help of some friends and relentless attitude with regards to doing the work myself, I can turbo this for under $3000 if I play my cards right. Iím just not super interested in a supercharger on this car. Like we discussed we want that top end boost, while often more desirable, Iím not sure I want the more linear power boost a supercharger gives. Plus Iíve heard dealing with the clutch and such is a pain

between my friends m113 turbo kit for $1200, and his ability to at least get me started with a tune, stavros rear mount e55 on driftworks he did for about $2000, and some help from other friends who really want to see this happen, this really may be cheaper than a supercharger. I also think it will be a little unique and more fun to drive

seems most of the guesswork is eliminated from turboíing m113 already and I assume thatís where half the costs goes when people say turboíing one of these cars gets really expensive. Ten years ago I would largely agree, now Iím really doing nothing new
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Old 03-07-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NAFT1 View Post
(use standard 2.5x multiplier to estimate actual costs).
So true. Whatever you think it will be, it's guaranteed to be 2.5x higher.
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BlownV8 View Post
So true. Whatever you think it will be, it's guaranteed to be 2.5x higher.
heard that. I guess one other upside to the turbo is it can always be moved to a new car afterwards even if itís not an m113
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NAFT1 View Post
Hmmmmm, have three Mercedes to drive....been a few years since I developed a one-off FI setup....anyone interested in working on a Vortech centrifugal liquid cooled 7-8psi setup? Should only be a about $4.5K in parts (use standard 2.5x multiplier to estimate actual costs).

Edit: someone has already done it- M113 CLK500
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45zqM2-VyEE
thats cool as hell haha
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Old 03-09-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ctravis595 View Post
thats cool as hell haha
Looks to not have an intercooler or blow-off vavle = poorly engineered and or done the cheapest way possible. A centrifugal supercharger still produces a bunch of heat. Compression = heat and it needs to be handled, even if it is only 5 - 7 psi, which is all that kit is probably producing. A BOV will allow the engine to work under normal vacuum condition. Without it, you are always heating the air and producing boost and drag on the engine. So, in reality, not so cool.
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Old 03-09-2019, 12:24 PM
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Surely it wouldnít be incredibly difficult to route an air to air intercooler and blow off valve I assume? I think they just wanted to see if the setup would even work

i just like seeing innovative and new ideas. Blownv8 you should join some of the w220/Cl55 groups on Facebook, thereís a guy out of New York doing all kinds of crazy swaps and FI setups almost weekly
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Old 03-09-2019, 03:01 PM
  #38  
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To mount an air to air, the supercharger would need to be mounted in reverse of what it is currently or have the blower outlet face down and somehow go under the supercharger with the charge air. Air to water looks like it would be easier on that application due to space and plumbing. BOV would be easy on that setup. Not sure why they don't have one. Really makes no sense to heat up the air and also have compressor surge issues. When the throttle body closes, there is no place for the air to go but backwards so the shockwave will eventually hurt or destroy the compressor.

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Old 03-10-2019, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BlownV8 View Post
To mount an air to air, the supercharger would need to be mounted in reverse of what it is currently or have the blower outlet face down and somehow go under the supercharger with the charge air. Air to water looks like it would be easier on that application due to space and plumbing. BOV would be easy on that setup. Not sure why they don't have one. Really makes no sense to heat up the air and also have compressor surge issues. When the throttle body closes, there is no place for the air to go but backwards so the shockwave will eventually hurt or destroy the compressor.

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Vortech's compressors allow for up to 10psi without a BOV or diverter and no danger of damage from surge. BOVs can seriously screw with MAF data and can really make tuning your car a nightmare. Diverter valves generally will not but require additional plumbing. An inline air-to-water intercooler could easily work with that setup, though they clearly are not running one in that video.

Last edited by NAFT1; 03-10-2019 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 03-10-2019, 12:51 PM
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How can a diverter valve not require more plumbing? The nature of a diverter valve requires plumbing to divert the charged air back into the system. A BOV mounted upstream of a MAF should not have any affect on the measured air. Now, if you were sucking the charge air through the MAF and before the supercharger, yes, a diverter valve would make sense. Not the case in this application.
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Old 03-10-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BlownV8 View Post
How can a diverter valve not require more plumbing? The nature of a diverter valve requires plumbing to divert the charged air back into the system. A BOV mounted upstream of a MAF should not have any affect on the measured air. Now, if you were sucking the charge air through the MAF and before the supercharger, yes, a diverter valve would make sense. Not the case in this application.
As i said, diverter valves generally do not cause the problems in MAF reading associated with a BOV, but DO require additional plumbing. I hate doing FI setups that include the MAF in the pressure pipe; it's much more reliable in the long run to code out the MAF and run a speed density setup, or have the MAF upstream. I don't know that they have or have not relocated the MAF in that CLK; I jumped to the conclusion that they did, as that's the way I'd do it if I was forced to keep it.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:55 PM
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Yeah you did say will require additional plumbing. Sorry, misread. Looks like they kept the MAF in the stock location. It seems to be a total budget build and that's fine but why go to that trouble since some simple additions could yield some serious power.

MAP is the way to go but not sure that's possible with the stock ECU or how difficult it would be to change out with a M113k ECU. Probably need a rewire and it would be a pain. How difficult would a speed density setup be on the car? Could you use the stock ECU or would you have to run a piggyback or standalone. Going standalone is such a PITA and makes the car difficult to have work done on it unless you are doing the work yourself.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BlownV8 View Post
Yeah you did say will require additional plumbing. Sorry, misread. Looks like they kept the MAF in the stock location. It seems to be a total budget build and that's fine but why go to that trouble since some simple additions could yield some serious power.

MAP is the way to go but not sure that's possible with the stock ECU or how difficult it would be to change out with a M113k ECU. Probably need a rewire and it would be a pain. How difficult would a speed density setup be on the car? Could you use the stock ECU or would you have to run a piggyback or standalone. Going standalone is such a PITA and makes the car difficult to have work done on it unless you are doing the work yourself.
'99 and lower needs a stand alone, but it's not all that difficult (relatively speaking) to code out the MAF in ME2. Was working with someone in Europe who created an entire speed density tune from scratch in ME7 on an 04' A4 like mine. ME7 is very tunable but so complex and easy to royally **** it up. Boost leaks are hell on those cars; even the 20-valve 4 cylinder must use sex lube and prayers to get it fitted under the hood during assembly (try finding the turbo inlet in the photo below). Forget trying to fit oversized plumbing and a big turbo; I ended up with an intake that looked like a pretzel to fit the MAF and air filter. That guy was a f'ing coding GOD! Retrofitting the ECU from a 211 is problematic as it won't talk to a lot of the SAMs and TCU. From what I have seen, most people who do the swap just get a tune for the M113K flashed onto their ECU and replace the clutched S/C pulley with a fixed one. I think I even saw someone make an entire conversion harness for the 211 harness to plug into the factory 210 ECU somewhere on one of the forums. Yeah, if they'd just gotten a longer harness to relocate the MAF on the S/C inlet in the CLK it would run a hell of a lot better on the street It's 90% there, but I've certainly made compromises to get a build finished that's way over-budget and past the deadline.




Last edited by NAFT1; 03-13-2019 at 01:33 PM.
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