FloridaE55

I'm talking about the gap between the release of the E60 M5 in Germany and the U.S. Before we will see the launch of this car in the U.S., it was available in Germany for more than a year by then. Why couldn't they deliver it to the U.S. shortly after the launch in Germany? What takes so long?



I can agree with that, but your previous post stated something else.



That's right!

Saprissa

so should I buy an AMG or an M ???

FloridaE55

One of the most difficult questions in the universe...

BMBW

Ok - I was confused because you said 2 years.

That wasn't me.

krispykrme

Other than 1998 E39 M5, BMW really has not delay the car up to 2 years introduction to US. BMW did not intially plan to bring the E39 M5 over due to the M5 price tag and thought that the 540i 6 speed would be suffice.

US has different emission, crash standard that it has to meet. It takes time for EPA to certify the car coming into united state. E46 M3 was introduced in about a year after europe. Moreover BMW takes more time in getting US spec car ready (especially for the M model). E60 itself also is introduced later in US. Same with E90.

The E60 M5 was suppose to release earlier in europe. But numerous delay causing it to go on market as same time as m6. This is pretty normal.

Different region has different regulation that BMW must have to pass.



For one thing, E500 steering response is more linear. It's slightly lighter.

Also, you are still wrong about 2 years delay between germany and US introduction. Because it's not true.


Wrong.
Being both E500 owner and E55 owner. I think I know more than you.
Different exterior? Other than the AMG body kit, spoiler.. Where is it different?

Interior is made up of better material, the roof is not made of cheap cloth. But does it matter about the way it drives?

NO. E55 has stronger brakes. But SBC on W211 robs you of any linear response you would expect from a german sport sedan.

The steering response is poorer on my E55 than it is on my E500. I have made that complaint over a year ago. Still maintain that to this date.

E55 has way more torque. It's very addicting. But it simply drove like a faster and more powerful E500. The difference other than power is not big.

You have not owned E39 M5 and a regular E39 like i did several years ago. I also had owned M3 and has drive regular 330ci before. Even though M cars are build on same chassis as regular 5 and 3. They are vastly different.


Again you are wrong.

M cars are usually released a year after european introduction (the only exception to date is the e39 M5). That has more to do with meeting US regulations as well as warranty issues that require more long term reliability test. EPA is like typical gov't agency. slow and inefficient.

The E60 M5 launch date between US and europe this time is around is 5 months.

FloridaE55

Sorry.. :p

FloridaE55

What BMW planned or not is not relevant. Fact is that people want that car now or even wanted an M5 last year and BMW had nothing to offer. So you actually admitt that something happened what they didn't expect and that's what I'm talking about the whole time - the car that is needed is or was not availavble on time.

I know that BMW takes more time. Isn't that the issue we are discussing the whole day? Why should it take BMW longer to meet all regulations than Mercedes? CLS 500 and CLS55 AMG have to fullfill the same regulations - well, it worked somehow to launch them at the same time..

This "numerous delay" isn't quite a plus for BMW, either.


I admitt that the gap is smaller than 2 years, but fact is that it's simply too big. Anybody knows that and especially BMW knows that. If the E55 makes no big difference to the E500, you should have bought a second E500 - that would have been the cheaper way. I also have the impression that you are not quite satisfied with your E55 - a test-drive might have saved you a lot of money. Your listing "Other than the AMG body kit, spoiler.." already shows that you proof your own statement to be wrong. The exterior of the M5 is also still based on a simple 5-series BMW, so this isn't quite a plus. The interior of the M5 isn't much different to the standard-version, too.

Your examples aren't representative because you simply don't know how the upcoming M5 will handle. Be careful, maybe you will be disappointed. What makes you so sure that those patterns will be the same with the new M5? That's a problem. If a car isn't available for a test-drive, you can only speculate. Not much worth..BTW, I'm happy to drive a car with strong brakes!! I have to say it again: Mercedes will never be as sportive as BMW, they don't even have the intention to be. BMW has a lack of comfort in their M5 and they don't care because they want to be more sportive. It's as simple as that.


Ah, now I can follow: Regulations are different between BMW and Mercedes and that causes the delay. :p Why don't the guys at BMW start earlier and try to fullfill those regulations that they don't loose Millions because they can't provide their cars on time.

I already stated that I might have chosen the M5 over the E55, but it's hard to decide in favour of a car that costs almost $100K and you're not even able to make a test-drive. And detailed info about release-date, options and price can't be provided at all - a competitor looks different, IMO.

So when would I get the car if I would order it now? Before or after September 2005? If it's later, I would be a good example of another lost customer due to their wrong calculations/expectations.

krispykrme

Why are you back tracking. BMW has always taken additional 2 years to develop M cars. Simple as that. Why is this irrelevant? BMW is not like mercedes that simply add a S/C and rush it out.

Is CLS/CLS 55 that different from each other? Other than the engines, better material used in interior, upgraded brake, 7 speed vs 5 speed. What else is different? Is the engine brand new? The 5.0 V8 and 5.5 V8 is old. The 5.5V8 has been in MB circulation for a long time. the transmission is not new either. Heck CLS can't not even be considered a brand new car since it is a version of W211 E-class. How long has W211 been available?

This simply proves my point that E55 and E500 are too common hence little delay in getting US spec car ready.

The W210 E55 took two years to arrive in europe, and one more additional year to arrive in US. What does that tell you. At that time, i believe the 5.5L engine is brand new.

Last time I check, M5 shares no powertrain component than any conventional 5 series. M3 only shares the getrag 6 speed gearbox. The E60 M5 has totally new powertrain which is not largely carried over like W211's powertrain. Heck, it took mercedes one year to get W210 E55 ready for us. And you are slaming that BMW took one year to bring the US spec m car over?

Get real.

When new powertrain are being introduced, it will take time for cerfification. Even with SL65, mercedes also introduced it almost a year after available in europe. Your point is simply wrong.


WTF are you talking about?

I bought the E55 after a short test drive. You can't tell how a car behave during short test drive. (Heck i was one of the lucky one that got a test drive). In addition, I got the E55 before the E500.

My statement is wrong? Please enlighten me? On the exterior which body panel is different? The AMG body kit is plastic parts. We got the 19" AMG wheels (yeah, when did that become part of exterior body)? BIG DEAL.

The W211 E55 has the same exterior with any other W211. What is the difference between E60 M5 which also base the exterior on the E60? You are smoking too much weed and totally makes no sense what so ever.

You think the E55 interior has totally different design?

Are you joking? you want to discuss W211 interior with an owner of two W211?

E55 gets the Alcantara covering on the roof, the pillars. We got more softer leather covering, two tone napa seat. A birsch maple wood (i think this is what I have on my W211). More chrome. A excellent leather/wood steering wheel.

The base E500 gets fake wood, much less chrome, cheaper leather seats and door panel covering. Dirt cheap cloth for the roof/pillar. Cheap plastic airbag cover and rought leather stiching on the steering wheel.

All of them are materials related, not one thing is design difference.

However, your lack of M5 shows. E39 M5 has all of the difference above as compare to the regular E39. The M5 also gets the nappa leather treatment, Alcantara roof liners and pillar. A choice of better wood, or aluminum trims. You can also get two tone seat as well. Sounds familiar?

GUESS WHAT. THIS IS ALSO THE EXACT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN E55 and regular E500 interior.

If you are going to know M5 interior for not much different than regular E60, then W211 also applies. Because both has same exact differentiation for the interior.

I am beginning to wonder if you really have E55 and looked at M5 before. This is a oxymoron post you just made.

What makes you think it will not? This is not the 1st M car that BMW has rolled out. So far each of the M car are significantly different than regular version.

This is BMW not mercedes, where fun is allowed instead of being restrained.



How? The engine was not ready. The SMGIII and new 7 speed manual is not ready. BMW has to wait until E60 program reached certain stage before it can begin to complete re-work the car. The M loses E60's active steering and host of change from the regular E60.

Mercedes took entire year just to certify a new 5.5V8 on W210. BMW took a full year to certify a brand new powertrain. Which is more difficult? BMW goes through this every time a new M car is introduced. Because it is vastly different. The new 5.0 V10 has no relation to any other engine in its product family. Do you think that mercedes would have easier time if they had to introduce a brand new engine along with entire new powertrain?

BMW is not going to lose money. M5 will be hard to get until last model year. E39 M5 was strictly order only car until 2003 (it's last model year in US). On the other hand E55 can be bought on the dealer's lot as early as late 2004 models.

[QUOTE=FloridaE55]
I already stated that I might have chosen the M5 over the E55, but it's hard to decide in favour of a car that costs almost $100K and you're not even able to make a test-drive. And detailed info about release-date, options and price can't be provided at all - a competitor looks different, IMO.[/qoute]

Do you think that to owners like me would care about price? options? or care for a test drive (btw, which i believe that for the 1st time, test drive would be extended to serious buyer on the demo car arriving in 9/05).

FYI. I have deposit on the M5 for several years. (I actually have two deposit placed). I am not the only one that has deposit placed for several years.

Go to any BMW dealers that allow wait list and see how many people is on it you would be suprised.

Lost customers? Sorry to burst your bubble. There are way more buyer than you can imagine. Last time I check E55 no longer has a wait list (since late 04 model- just a year after introduction). I was able to walk into beshoff and ordered my E55 in late 2003 with no wait list of any kind.

M5's wait list is at least 3 years worldwide. Unless you are going to pay $25k premium for one, you can't get one.

Wrong calculation? Expectation?

I am sorry to inform you that you have wrong expectation and calculation about the M5. You simply lacked experiences in buying/owning a BMW M5.

BMWEATR

dude your on crack! I have a brand new E500 sitting next to my 03 E55 in the garage! and its alot *** different! you need to go away and go eat some doughnuts or somthing cause your a waste of everyones time. totall *** idiot. i can't stand total *** idiots.

krispykrme

So mr.chicken! When are you going to step up to the plate?

i am waiting for you to respond.

Too bad, both steve and scorchie has worked on my E500 for the euro command and tv tuner. I brought my E55 to bay area meet before.

Like i said, you and host other really give true owners bad name.

BMWEATR

huh are you responding to me? what plate do you want me to step up to gay bay boy?

krispykrme

you are joking right? read the post i made for you, petite B, delmonte tomato.

why chicken out? loser.

BMWEATR

hold on buddy I have to find the post first ***** I'm a busy guy gimme some time. gimme a hint were's it at?

krispykrme

3rd time

2nd time

I am too lazy to dig up the original offer.

chicken will always be chicken!

BMWEATR

hold on turbo let me go read de'm posts. "I'll be Baak!"

BMWEATR

Hey kream puff, its kinda late but I read your post(challenge) I never said anything about the new M5 being slower than a E55,( i don't think )

All i ever said was that it was *** ugly! I would hope its alot faster for all the hub bub about it! if it weren't it would be the biggest flop in car history! and to your challenge, **** comparing them I'll race you heads up,in your M5 anywere any time baby willow? sears point? or maybe you can drive up to little o'll oregon and i'll embarress you at my track PIR. If you win I'll pay all your gas and entry fee to get there, If I win, you gotta pay for all the lap dances at gentalmens club. wassup buddy? oh wait you won't even get your BMR for like what 1-2 more yrs? wtf? go down to the castro district and find yourself a new friend cause you ain't got non here.

krispykrme

Like i said. Chicken is a chicken. Don't backtrack now.

BTW both car will be ready, it should be within 2k miles of each other.

I am going to put stop to all of these crap none-sense.

Like i said, step up to the plate.

My tectite gray E55 and silverstone M5 will be more than happy to accomodate.

BMWEATR

your kidding me right? back track I haven't back tracked anything. I'm right here baby and standing behind evrything I've dished out. just facts from me baby, no fantasy land here. so when you get your new shinny BMR ,PM me and we'll set it up. and remember I never said the bmr was slower! but I'll beat you in one!

kkd @ $6.48 hope you got out early!

FloridaE55

Why are you back tracking. BMW has always taken additional 2 years to develop M cars. Simple as that. Why is this irrelevant? BMW is not like mercedes that simply add a S/C and rush it out.[/QUOTE]

You simply don't get it.. I'm not talking about the development, I'm talking about the delay in getting this car to the US? Is this so hard to understand???


I bet we will see the same long gap with the launch of the new M6. It has the same engine as the M5, so there won't be another excuse for BMW...
You stated that the E55 is the same like the E500 just with a stronger engine, now you are listing the differences - no comment. And now you are telling me the CLS is the same as an E-Class Mercedes. Maybe you are blind, I don't know BTW, The BMW 760Li and the Z3 are also the same because they have four wheels and the BMW-badge..

How many years was BMW without an M5 in the US (gap between E39 and E60)??? And how many years was Mercedes without an E55?? See, that's what I'm talking about!

They shouldn't have stopped the production of the E39 M5 that early without any substitute!

Yes, but when people wanted a new and powerful SL, they could get an SL55. BMW's solution: Sorry, we don't have anything that comes even close...

That's bad luck! If you already owned an E55 and were unable to see the difference to the "cheap" E500-interior, that tells me a lot. So please explain to me why you bought this "cheap and crappy" E500. Sometimes people use examples to proof they are right but don't see that these examples let them appear somewhat stupid..

No need to get aggressive (my grandmother says that's proof that somebody's wrong)! YOU SAID that there wouldn't be a big difference between the E500 and the E55. I just wanted to let you now that there is no bigger difference between the M5 and 545i, either. A little difference inside, a little difference outside and a different engine. This is correct for BOTH cars, M5 and E55, so I couldn't quite follow why you pointed that out in favour of the BMW

See statement above! Once again, you should contact Mercedes and ask for money because you poor guy have to drive two of this bad cars. I've never seen somebody who was so unhappy with his E-Class that he went to his dealer and bought a second one There is only one thing that you proof to the members on this board but due to the fact that I have good manours, I won't tell...

I get massage-seats, curve-active seats, designo wood and leather (you always get what you pay for), panorama-roof (uups, not available for the 5-series), electric-trunk opener (not available, either), Ventilated seats AND high-pressure washers for the headlights (not available on E60, you can choose between priority 1-option ventilated seats OR you can't get the Cold-Weather package - too bad). In addition you have to wait until September before you can get Keyless-Go for the E60 (slow BMW-developers, as stated before). You see, I know much more about the E60 than you might have expected...

Don't even try stating the BMW would be better equipped - no way.

That's so funny...now you are listing all the differences you previously stated don't even exist. Do I really have to comment? So what's the design-difference in the interior between M5 and 545? I guess the "Dirt cheap cloth" and the "Cheap plastic airbag cover" was sufficient for your taste. I don't have a different explanation why you bought this "trash-car"..

Bravo, you finally got it!! That's what I was trying to tell you since we began this discussion! So why are you trying to list those differences in favour of the M5 when it's the same with the E500 and E55 and the 545 and the M5 IMO, that makes no sense at all..

Exactly, so why did you try to use this as an example in favour of the M5

Check my signature, I never stated I have the E55 already but my dealer gave me the opportunity to test-drive it before I placed my order. I can't look at a car that isn't available yet but I have literature and the internet.

Yes, so far, but as long as it isn't here, nobody knows, not even you... :p

If being on a long waiting list for a car that hasn't showed up yet is your understanding of fun, BMW is exactly what you are looking for...

They will lose money as soon as the demand is higher than the number of available cars. Being an industrial business administrator, you learn that right at the beginning. The only reason why the waiting list is so full is that the car is not available yet. But do you have any idea how much money they lost because it's harder to get the M5 than the E55? Not everybody can and wants to wait for several years, and you know that as good as I do. It was you who said they underestimated the demand for the M5 - this can happen but it shouldn't.

Belmondo

Florida55, bless you for your ability to respond kindly to cryspys. Just know that you are 1000's person by now to expose cryspys BS.
This fellow's unstable , short tempered and will probably go loony on you.
I undestand he fights a "battle" which he was unable to win so far in his life so just know where he comes from if he goes berserk in his next post.
He's been also known to just go away for awhile when proven wrong. So there is some understanding left in him. I guess he takes time to recuporate and comes right back at you with the same BS. It never changes.

Jean-Paul

FloridaE55

Thank you very much, Belmondo. I actually can't enjoy this discussion because he changes his point of view from post to post. I'm happy that I'm not the only one on this board who has that impression

Can Drive 55

Ditto Belmondo, and Florida, hope you like your 2006 as much as I like my 2005.

FloridaE55

Oh, I will...... Thanks, can drive 55!

krispykrme

Sorry, can you bother to read. OR undestand what you are talking about.

When did BMW take two years to get M car ready for US market after launch in europe (other than E39 M5- which was exception)?

Heck, the W211 E55 arrived in US one year after the european introduction. Your point is simply wrong.

The only difference is that BMW took two years in developing the M car because they had to wait until E60 design firmed up. While Mercedes did not have to since the difference between E55 and regular W211 is small. The powertrain is not totally new.

So you are completely wrong.

Wrong. The M6 should hit US shore not long after the M5, since power train is shared.

Listing the difference? Are you smoking weed?

Are the difference matter in the way the car drive? My original comment is that E55 drives like a faster and more powerful E500. Does better leather makes car drives better? Does body kit means that E55 has different body than E500? THE ANSWER IS NO. You simply had no clue to what you are talking about. I did not know that a piece of alcantra, wood, and chrome would have impact on the way the car drives. You just came up with new physics i guess.

CLS is based on the E class. The chassis, suspension, the power train is all from the E-class. A new body shell, new steering, and new interior, does not make it a brand new car. It's like comparing ES330 and a Camry. Both shares the same chassis, suspension, powertrain, but each with different body shell and interior. But this does not make them a totally different car.

Stop making stupid arguments.

Does it matters? BMW has always been without M5/M3 for couple years in US market. They take their time to develop a vastly different car based on regular platform. I like their approach better in differentiating the car instead of simply slap on a S/C and run with it.

How, the entire E39 chassis was discountinued. BMW is not going to dedicate a line just to make couple thousand of M5 a year. It makes no business sense.

Why do they need a SL55 competitor? A car that drives good in straight line but weighs a ton with hard convertible top?

BMW has always been about performance 1st, luxury/style 2nd. To them the hard top takes extra weight and screw up the performance of the car.

Like I have said, you simply lacked experience of BMW M cars. That's why BMW does not make a M7. Because to them it a stupid idea to do a M7 that is big and will never approach the performance target they are setting. That's why there is no M version of X5 either.

M division has always been about maximize factory performance over luxury and style.

AMG on the other hand is about luxury and power. AMG has lost its purpose. There are too many AMG across the lineup. AMG is no longer about fun to drive. AMG is simply just a more powerful version of regular mercedes. It's no longer speical and as focused as the M cars.



Like i said, you are smoking weed.

Difference in interior material does not make a car drives differently. Stop coming up with comment that I did not make. What wrong with you?

YOU ARE SMOKING WEED. THIS IS WHAT I SAID EXACTLY.
"But it did not. The E55 simply drove like a more powerful E500. In fact it actually has worse feedback than E500."

So mr. weed smoker. How does this has anything to do with interior? Are you telling me that napa leather will cause the car to drive different than a car with cheap leather?

You are totally out of your league with your lack of knowledge.

The difference between 545i and M5 are huge.

545i comes with active steering, where the M5 does not.
M5's entire powertrain is totally unique as compare to 545i. Mechanically they are much more differently than E500/E55.

Prior to 2004, the E500 shares the same 5 speed automatic with the E55. The E500/E55 shares the same basic engine block. The E55 engine is a stroked version of the E500 SOHC V8. In fact the E55 left factory as a E500 and have its engine than stroked at AMG and super charger added (plus other AMG touch- with reclibrated suspension... settings).

The reason that E55 did not get upgraded to 7 speed automatic, because mercedes new 7 speed automatic can't handle the torque. That's why AMG gets stuck with older technology transmission, while the rest of lineup gets the 7 speed.

Both AMG and M utilize the same method in distinguish the AMG/M car from exterior and interior. Your comment is just stupid. If you are going to knock M5 for interior/exterior to be close to regular 545i, the same argument applies to E55/E500. In fact due to less degree of variation betweem E55 and E500, AMG cheapened the customer and loses focus.

I got the 2nd W211 as settlement between the dealer and I for dirt cheap. I was actually looking at a 04 TL for my daily beater. Due to some legal settlement, I ended up with a E500 close to 50% off as beater. I had no intention of picking up another W211. But 50% discount is a 50% discount.

Massage seat? You are talking about the dynamic seat. Which adds more weight and really is not that useful. My E55 comes fully loaded except distronic and parktronic.

How many time have I used panorama roof within last year? Twice. How many time have I used dynamic seat? Once during trip last year down to bimmerfest. Ventilated seat? The W211 A/C is quiet powerful. Plus majority of the time the car spent is under shades.

All those added weight. Cool to have. Usefulness to be debated. Electronic trunk closer on the other hand, I do agree it is useful. That was one thing that I did not appreciate until I had it on E55.

You know nothing about E60. M-multifunction seat is a stand alone option (not sure what will happen to US Spec car yet).

Like i have said earlier. BMW M has never been about luxury. You are barking up on the wrong tree.

Like i have said many times, you simply don't bother to read.

PLEASE SHOW ME HOW DIFFERENT INTERIOR MATERIAL WILL HAVE IMPACT ON THE WAY THE CAR DRIVES?

PLEASE STOP SMOKING WEED FOR A MINUTE!

And your point for stating this in discussion is?

BMW has been building M5 way longer than E55 existence.
Lose money? You have no clue.

M has always been about exclusiveness and ultimate performance. BMW only build certain amount each year and will not ramp up production even if demand far exceed supply.

This is how BMW maintain M brand image. By tightly control on how many it produces, on which car to do M version. Anything that does not fit the M brand image, it simply do not exist. It's called brand management. Something I wouldn't expect you to understand either.

They did not under estimated demand for the M. It's simply designed that way. When did I say BMW under estimated M demand? STOP COMING UP WITH STATEMENT THAT I DID NOT MAKE.

The fact that there are wait list for over 3 years, is that's how much BMW is willing to sell. They are not like what mercedes is doing right now. Flooding the world with AMG. AMG used to be something special (fun and powerful to drive). Mercedes has done AMG a diservice by flooding market with AMG and erode the AMG brand image.

Why does AMG need a S65? So the customer can drive a 600+HP car in a straight line super fast? Is S65 an excellent handler that is fun to drive? If all you want is to drag race all day long, go get a bike.

I will say this. AMG has lost its focus. It's no longer special. I am just happy that BMW is smart enough for not doing what AMG is doing. Flooding the world with AMG on every model by simply adding more powerful engine. Yeah, that is so special.

Like i have said, the difference in philosophy between AMG and M is huge. You simply don't understand. To you, a car is a status symbol. To me a car is about the car itself. I can careless about luxury interior. A car must pull it weight in performance and fun to drive. That's why I buy a car for.

The E55 has been a dissappointment for me. I bought it because at the time my M5 would take back seat to a RS6. But E55 is not a car for me. It simply underwhelms in fun to drive.

I like a car that is tossable. I really missed the M3 that wife made me traded in for a CLK. It's fun to toss around in a M3. But that's something you wouldn't know either.

krispykrme

Hey Mr. Tomato. How about step up to the plate.

I dissappear?

Who are you talking?

Stephen- the australian dude that get exposed at a cheater? that ripped off E55baller?

Or Norb- that simply dissappear.

Like i said. STEP UP TO THE PLATE.

There are plenty of people that knows me in person.

Care to step up and show your face?

There is one thing that I will not tolerate. Don't question my integrity. I am not like you that hides behind a monitor and jerk off.

Here is a picture of the E55 navi.


Here is a picture of my E500 navi (notice the difference in wood as the E500 gets the ultra cheap wood, and Steve's work in installing the euro command).


The E500 navi picture was taken when some idiots questioned the usefullness and accuracy of GPS navigation between MB unit and toyota/denso unit.

I am really sick and tired of talking to idiots like you and floridaE55.