krispykrme

Okay. I am getting a little aggrevated.

This forum is proving itself time after time to be occupied by immature idiot.

I am proposing this for the 3rd time to bring this crap under control.

I have stated clearly from day one. I don't understand why it would be difficult for some E55 owners open to the fact that new E60 could be faster. (in fact a lot of test has already shown that). But that is not the main point on which car is faster or is slower. Personally I don't give a cr ap which is faster in 0-60 or straight line. This is not what I am looking for to begin with.

However, a forum is only as good as participant's action on it. I am sick and tired of seeing idiots such as del monte tomato, petite B, bmwxxx ruining this board and drag other E55 owners down (in fact some of them are not even owners).

One thing for all. Who ever pays for track time in nor cal. I will allow both of my car to be tested in 0-60 and 1/4 miles.

The event will take place as soon as I can get my M5 ordered/delivered and break in past 3k miles. My M5 should be orderable and delivered no later than feb of next year (provided that BMWNA does not push it out). I will take probably 6 weeks to ran up 3k miles.

I would like petite B, delmonte tomato and bmwxxx to step up to the plate and do something about it. Otherwise, SHUT UP!!!

Let MBWORLD RETURN TO A NORMAL CAR FORUM!!! Where adverstiser can run a business. I feel sorry to the host.

DRCrowder

the E60 will beat the W211 in every way performance wise, as it should.

I can't wait to get one

schwarzwagen

MBE55AMG

That's right, bro. You tell 'em!

Lexani

You would swear it. While were on it though, Im willing to bet the 2020 E9000 will beat the M5 in ever way performance wise, as it should. Though it hasn't come out, and some how people already tested it. You will believe me damn it!

I can't wait to get one!

hilsman

Gee Krispy...at the rate of delivery in Europe that prediction might turn out to be March or even April.....hopefully by then this will be forgotten and Car and Driver/ Road and Track/et al can give some believable straight line data....it's not so much that I don't think the M-5 will be faster in certain performance tests e.g. 100-250k... it will simply have to be faster due to weight and gearing...I'm no idiot...but I do not believe it will be discernably faster in the quarter or even from 5 mph to 100mph....we'll have to wait and see.

Now if you'd made this statement in reverse on the BMW board you'd be banned!!!!

Gray

krispykrme

who know what will happen. i am keeping my finger crossed on M5 delivery date.

still, even with magazine test, there are still going to be argument. I have been on this forum for over 1.5 years now. I am just getting to a point that this is such intolerable eye sore.

E55 RUSS

I 100% agree...so much BS...let talk about CARS and

onesixeight

I couldn't agree more krispykrm...I'm not a brand loyalist and I buy whatever is the best. I'm pretty positive about the E60 M5 styling, and will get one...

Let's put this aside and get back to the regular programming

AMGfan

How the hell did it get this far? The base issue was inappropriate censorship not the fact that the E60 would be faster to whatever than the W211 AMG. I would hope that the E60 would be faster given the development time given between the the E39 and E60. Also, the fact that the W211 AMG have been on the road giving target performance numbers for the E60 to match and/or surpass.

I'm sure the AMG engineers are tinkering away as we speak...

Belmondo

That is fkn right, who knows what will happen and when, if ever-----so untill than STFU! YOu cant resist donuts, I dont know what they taste
like----- there is your fkng basic difference that is true for every product/aspect in the world/life.
YOu may think, and it "tastes" resonable to you, to think its the best, while I disagree through trying or not. You speculate on M5, fine-- anybody who wants can "counter" speculate as well. When and if you get whatever you think you will get than TALK, untill than my teddy bear PUT up or SHUT up.

Oh Yes, when and if I order E63, I dont know, next year ,a year after that, I invite everyone somewhere in US to run my E63 versus whatever it is you will have . THere you have it, a reasonable deal. Now, I dont know what will happan but I thought I would just throw it out there for you fellows.

Cryspy, buddy, cut hte crap and cut the donuts. I told you before, your problem is not e55, M5 , this forum and anything posted here. YOu were fighting here with just about every E55 owner just a few month ago. YOu know what I think your biggest frustration is---concentrate on that , if you can. THe your " problem" just kills you, buddy, makes you irritated, short-tempered , abusive and so on.
Change your life, buddy, the road for you to become a happy productive sitizen will have to go around the pastry on to loving yourself before you will be able to respect people around you. Look in the mirror, understand the problem and then deal with it. Be smart enough to take a good advice.

All the best to your "untills", "if's" and "when's", so stop waiting for some wheels or toys, deal with problem #1 and I'm sure everything else will fall into place.

Once again, there are probably not one E55 owner or not that you did not argue with not long ago. The problem is not people here, cars there or time frame----the sooner you will face it the better.

YOu "getting a little aggrevated " is NOT good. You have to decide for youself if getting hypertension and being on beta blockers for the rest of your life is where you want to be......good luck and keep uyour fingers crossed and your mouth shut untill, if and when.

love you
Jean-Paul


P.S.
Got a letter from LexisNexis/Seisint telling me that some punk stole my name , address and possibly SS#. I hope it was not you doing it out of frustration. If it was you --you are turning into a CRIMINAL!!!
If its you---I'll get you! :p

Belmondo

Yes!!! YOU!!! THe one and only.
Ae you proposing to yourself? That is crazy, big man, just crazy and immature. Plus if you can't control donuts intake how can you control your crap? I highly doubt it. I admire your courage-- now if you could only resist keyboard. Tell yourself: "must resist, must resist....." Lets see if it works. I cross my fingers it does.

with love,
Jean Paul

Marcus Frost

krispy,

You do realize that the mere fact we get 80hp from a chip and pulley will basically immediately put the acceleration debate to rest? It may not be "fair" - but it's definitely one of the reasons I have an E55... forced induction is easy to make more power with. For the price of a pulley/chip upgrade you'd be lucky to find an intake that gives more than 5hp on the M5.

In addition, I do not think the M5 will completely outgun the 55, especially from a lowrpm rollon where we have more torque @ 2000rpm than the M5 has at it's peak... everyone keeps speculating, and I don't think it's going to go anywhere. Let's wait for the cars to get here, and let them duque it out. I honestly feel they will be fairly evenly matched in acceleration, with the M5 handling better but the E55 being more comfortable.

Seeing stock E55s trap 115-118mph, these cars are SERIOUSLY fast from a roll, and I've seen it first hand. I raced a Viper GTS w/ boltons (which probably traps around 120-122mph) from a 60mph roll Tuesday night and he was only able to put 1-1.5 car lengths per gear. Up to 140mph he was maybe 4 car lengths ahead from 60mph. I lost, but I wasn't too unhappy about it. I've raced a lot of cars from a roll, and I will tell you this: the E55 is a monster on the highway.

-m

BMWEATR

well I'd step up but I went out to my garage and couldn't tell the difference between my E500 and my E55 so I just went back in the house. your right kream puff they are exactly alike!! F'k'n eh why the hell did I wast my money on that damn 55? and now I can't even figure out wich one is wich?

E55 RUSS

No...you are wrong...Chip and pully will give 35-60 at the MAX...

Kleemann stage 1 chiped and pully is only +34 HP...520...

MKB kit with ECU and Forced induction is 540 HP...

But here we talk about different things...

stock M5 is faster then stock E55, it could not been the other way around...Next E63 will be faster then M5...

ZorroAMG

These threads are almost as gay as richard simmons.

The W211 walks on the E39. The E60 will probably beat the W211, (but not as bad and only on a road course as torque wins red-light races and the E60 just ain't got any.) Then the next gen AMG will walk on the E60, and on and on....see a pattern? BMW must really like to play catch-up.

krispykrme

I am fully aware of that. To tune E55 to go faster is very easy since our car is force inducted. With chips, smaller pulley, a larger inter-cooler, header, bigger injectors, and more aggressive ECU mapping. Our car cam easily push over 600HP. This can't be done with the M5 without a huge modification to the V10's internal.

But this has nothing to do with the original debate that in stock form M5 has been shown to be faster. I don't think this is speculation anymore because pretty much all magzine test thus far has shown that to be the fact.

Torque peak is really no factor in 0-60 race between M5 and E55. Since M5 is essentially a manual. With launch control, you are lauching the car closer to M5 maximum output than E55. Plus SMG engages gear change much faster than gear ratio change in our slush box. That need to be considered as well. Moreover, it also really depends on how well the car maintain traction. It's quiet easy to spun the wheels on the E55, you and i should be very clear about that. Our stock CSC2 tires are horrible in grip. That is also another factor to consider as well.

Like i said. I am not really interested in running a car simply for straight line. What fun is that in simply gunning the gas pedal? Anyone can punch the gas and go.

I am offering to do this, because i just want this board to return to normal. Also, it would be nice to have civil discussion between real owners.

There are things I am worried about the M5. I am used to the torque at low end that E55 provides. Having owned the M3, that engine is really gutless sub 3k RPM. Even though M5's torque is not low, but it's no where close to E55. A year ago, i said it clearly. M5 will probably need to be in correct gear if someone punches the car next to it. Otherwise, M5 will have its *** handed to it.

I think that it will take a much more skilled driver to drive the M5 well. With AMG, you simply needs to punch the gas.

As far as M5 cathing up to E55?

When BMW is selling M5, E55 does not exist. It took Mercedes 5 models years to come up with a super charged E55 in 2002 to beat 1998 E39 M5 in straight line. So who is catching up to who? In addition, E55 still no where close in terms of handling deparment.

To be honest a civic with heavy mod still cost less than half of E55 will take us to lunch. Heck, even a modified IS300 turbo could take stock E55 as well.
To judge a car simply based on 0-60 is really stupid and pointless.

caliboy

WHO F ckin CARES!!!!!!!!!!! When the next e55 comes out it will be faster than the new M5 coming out and then when the next M5 comes out it will be faster than that one and so on. I don't know how far all this HP madness will go. But do you guys realize that that the new M5 and the cureent e55 are family cars that could have easily taken many track race cars back in the day, yet we drive on residential and traffic roads every day. No room except for a quarter mile here and there when we can sneak away from cops.

Pretty soon there will be a 600hp sedan that can't be used on regular roads because it will snap your neck so damn hard..... it's ridiculous guys. Most of the time it's just knowing that we have all that hp and that we have the fastest car that makes it exciting. I understand, but it's not practical just enjoy your cars and trust me good luck having all that hp. with authorities.

My car is only 189hp. I remember back in the day when an inline six cylinder toyota cressida was top of the line and one hell of a fast engine at 190 hp and these days my relatively cheap 4 banger makes it look like crap. All this whos better talk is too much.

take it easy guys even if it is in hidden dragstrip areas which most of us don't encounter very much...... this coming from a guy who got one of the fattest tickets earlier this year in a 4 banger........ can't imagine how tempting the beasts that you guys drive must be. so relax dudes mb is always best anyways especially when you shine that star acroos bmw owners foreheads as you pull up to a club!

Belmondo

I'm stepping up as well, but as you know the M5 is NOt ordered, NOt here and its is NOt known when it will be here if at all. What kind of "step up" crap is that? In dudes mind he thinks that the most unrealistic situation of "step up" in the Universe somehow adds credibility to his BS. What if this clown overdoses on donuts in the next two weeks and dies, what is going to happen to dont have a clue when --"step up" crap ??

Jean-Paul

Marcus Frost

See, I don't understand this. I do understand the stock vs stock debate, but why is the modified vs modified or potential vs potential arguement always so quickly thrown out? If the M5 is faster, I can change that so easliy. If the E55 is faster, the M5 is sh*t out of luck. That's pretty damn important if you ask me. One of the very top reasons I bought the E55 is because I know it would be easy for me to keep up with the times hp wise having a forced induction engine. The M5 does NOT give you that.

Here's the thing, and you should know this already, is that you are talking in ideal terms. You are just theorizing.

1.) Torque - Horsepower wins races, this is true - however the M5 is going to be a lot like the M3 where as you stated, it's going to require a lot of precisioness to be in the right gear, the right speed, at the right rpm to come out hard. E55 has so much torque over such a broad range that I can punch the gas from just about anywhere and I will jump the M5 from a roll, and if it's going to beat me it will most likely be playing catch up. That will of course depend on from what speed, but torque is a beautiful thing. I know from experience of lining up with cars that have more hp than me how much that broad torque curve helps.

2.) Launch control - The E55 doesn't need to launch at high rpm because it has so much down low torque. I've seen regular 1.8 60' times, 1.7 60' times with drag radials. The M5 is not going to beat those by any crazy margin, I don't care how sophisticated it's launch control system is.

3.) SMG gear changes - not a big deal, M5 has to go through more gears. E55 shifts slower, M5 shifts more often. Maybe that makes a difference, maybe not.

And like I said - my daily commute involves traffic, rain, and general bs. I don't want to be in a wannabe sports car day in and day out. If I want a sports car, I'll buy a sports car. The E55 handles just fine for what I want. I can raise and lower it at the touch of a button, stiffen the suspension and the turn of a button, and basically turn it to Dr. Jekyl from Mr. Hyde as the mash of the pedal.

I hope our discussion has been civil.

I owned an E46 M3 as well, I'm well aware of the philosophy behind //M cars - and you hit the nail on the head as to why I wanted a less-nonsense car to daily drive...

The good thing about the M3 was that at least it was a lighter coupe with the choice between a 6-speed and SMG (I, of course, had a 6-speed). The M3 is much closer to a sports car than the M5 is, even if the M5 is, on paper, faster.

And then it took BMW 4 years to catch up to the E55... and that's just catching up, it remains to be seen who's going to be faster.

I'm going to be quite honest that from all the dyno #s here, as well as the trap speeds I see people posting stock, we know the E55 is severely underrated. E55s realistically make 500-550hp stock, and 550tq-575tq stock. These aren't magazine #s, these are real world #s. Look at the dyno's yourself, they are posted on this board. Look at the time slips. I was with erickaz when he dyno'd his bone stock '05... he made some 530bhp and 570btq. 30more hp and nearly 200 more torque - most available from 2000rpm on up. So unless the M5 is underrated at 500hp & 385tq it's going to have some big time problems fending off our E55s...

-m

saber

Marcus,
Same points I was going to make. Not much I could do with the new m5 but I think 30% of the e55s out there are modified because it is so easy to do. As a side point, how much modification have you done to your car. The reason I ask is that I have beat my friends Viper multiple times on different occasions with my car and he has a full exhaust system. I am consistently sub 12 with my best of 11.7.

krispykrme

This is true. E55 is easier to mod in terms of straight line performance it's very easy to keep up with change. But seriously speaking, do you really need a 600HP car to simply run straight line all day?

Personally it would be more difficult for me to mod E55 to handle like an M5. Eveyone's preference is different. I am really okay with just 500HP that M5 offers as long as the car is tossable. This can't be done with E55.

I think your priority is more straight line performance, while I am looking for a good straight line performance with excellent handling and tossbility.

E55 has so much torque through out a broader range. But keep in mind, our S/C does not engage at low end (2000RPM- if i remember correctly). So if you are lauch a car at 700RPM (idle), in which our clutch driven S/C is not engaged. I don't know how fast M5's RPM is climbing launching at 4400RPM. But based on the M3, the RPM climb very fast at high RPM. In addition, at 4400RPM launch you are 800RPM away from M5 peak torque.

I agree that you could jump M5 on a roll if the M5 is not in the right gear and right RPM. It took my M3 a while to catch up to a WRX wagon when he just decide to punch it at highway cruising speed while i was cruising along at 6th gear at 65mph. The SMG-II on the M3 (at least on my car) does not like to down shift two gears quickly. I am not sure how much improvement SMGIII brings to the table. So I can't comment on how M5 will react when i need to downshift two gears very quickly. But I do suspect that from a roll when the M5 driver is not expecting a race, E55 will have advantage in that aspect.

No M5 will not kill E55 in 0-60 by a huge margin. Based on simple physics that is not possible. M5 probably will come with better tire (well at least i hope my car will not come with POS CSC2). Lauch control if used correctly should prevent wheel slippage. A lot of problem with E55 is that with engagement of S/C toruqe output is not real linear (well it's flat after the S/C is engaged). But our tires simply can't handle that much amount of torque suddenly. I have spun my tires in 3rd gear before. This is an issue that E55 has to deal with more than M5.

If you look at video on M5 doing 0-60 run, you would see that launch control did very good job in controlling this aspect.

As an M3 owner yourself. You know that in reality, we are probably only using 5th gear out of 6. I would suspect that out of 7 gear in SMG, M5 owners probably would be using at most 6 gear (possibly 5).

So through out 0-60 and 1/4 miles M5 and E55 will probably go thorugh same number of gear changes.

However, no one knows since we don't have M5 to test just yet.

I am just theorizing. A lot of thing will effect the actual performance.

Everyone is different. I am not saying that what I am looking for it suited for you. I don't drive the E55/M5 for daily commute. I have other beater to drive around. So my choice would be more toward a driver's car rather than a daily cruiser. I have said it clearly many times before, E55 is a very good cruiser, M5 will never come close to that. M5 will be like M3 handles like crap when rain and snow hits (actually is down right dangerous). E55 you can drive with more confident in bad weather.

So if you are using the car as daily commute, of course M5 is not really suited for you. Since I am not using it in that capacity. To me that is a mute point.

BTW, i still think E55 suspension is too soft. Even at hardest setting. Again, a difference in personal priorities.

Couple things.
The new E60 is actually much lighter than E39 it replaces. The new E60 is less than 100LB lighter than the new E90. That should tell you that BMW spend quiet a bit of time to trim the weight down from E39. I think BMW is aware of the problem with extra mass. Couple with active roll stablization to compensate for extra mass and size, I don't think M5 will be worse than E46 in handling capabilities.

New desing incorporate more new technology. M5 being 5 model years later than E46 M3 really has benefited from that. (Of course the new E90 M3 will probably be better than E60 M5 in handling).

I will agree with you on the transmission. Personally I would much prefer to have a clutch pedal not some idiotic electronically controller hydraulic clucth. That's why I have two deposit on the M5. If I hated the SMG, I can turn around dump that thing for a profit and get a 6 speed manual version of E60 M5 when it arrives in 2007. At least BMW finally started listening and is going to offer a 6 speed manual along with SMG-III.

[QUOTE=Marcus Frost]
he made some 530bhp and 570btq. 30more hp and nearly 200 more torque - most available from 2000rpm on up. So unless the M5 is underrated at 500hp & 385tq it's going to have some big time problems fending off our E55s...[/b]

Based on my own experience. German marque tends to underrate their engine by quiet a margin (that include BMW/VAG). So i would not be suprised to find that the new M5 and our E55 output is actually higher than what is claimed by manuf.

I have not yet driven the M5. But based on the tests done so far, I think we can conclude that in ideal condition, M5 is faster than E55. But in real world, there are many factors involved. Plus its not like we are going to run the car at way excessive speed on the street. That's why I think to get so worked over on who is faster who is slower is really just stupid (plus i am biased, since I really don't understand the purpose of drag race).

E55_POWER

And for this reason I hope the M5 is FASTER than the W211 E55...in the end we as consumers win as BMW and MB battle it out to stay on top. I can't wait to get my M5, then can't wait to get the next E55, then next M5 and so on.

Marcus Frost

I think you are getting too much into semantics here. You're categorizing what I like in a car using words that make it seem trivial. I would love a 600hp car for everyday. I am very much into cars and associate with a lot of enthusiasts on a regular basis. We hit the highways late at night and the race tracks quite often. A 600hp daily drivable car for me is great because I can do so many things with it. To you, with a different lifestyle, a different line up of cars, it's not the same.

On top of that, the Midwest here is very flat and straight. I don't have canyons, mountains, curvy roads, etc. It's a big city with big highways. Acceleration is king here, and it's what you'll use the most often. Even with my M3 I really didn't have anywhere I could take and dog it around corners unless I went 80+ miles out to some country roads. Unfortunately I don't have much time to do that.

E55 cannot be made to handle like an M5 without extensive and ridiculously expensive money thrown into it. I don't think the E55 tries to handle as well as the M5, as discussed previously.

You do realize that from a roll, the E55 makes more torque @ 1800rpm than the M5 makes at peak, right? Check the dyno graphs...

I had this happen to me against an SVT Lightning. Thing would jump out on me and I'd have to rev out the gears to start reeling him back in. It was tough and I really had to be focused on rpm and shift points to get the true potential out of the car. Fortunately I've had my experience driving cars and I could usually pull it out - but no one is perfect and it's very easy to slip up.

The whole tire thing is so trivial to me... a lot of people on this very board had dealers change out the CSC2s for whatever under warranty. You wear tires out in 7k-15k miles or so anyways at which point you can put whatever you want on there...

I'm sure it did, you can see plenty of videos with E55s out launching AWD cars at the track with street tires...

This is true... but an E55 will at most use 4 gear (we hit our 155mph limiter in 4th). So if it's from a roll we may both be in 2nd but he'll end in 6th I'll be in 4th. Twice as many shifts... this of couse will vary, but you get my point.

As long as both M5 and E55 owners can respect the fundamental differences between the two cars, I think we'd all get along. I drove my E55 this winter through what was a pretty bad one. Snow tires my only mod. I could outlaunch SUVs in the snow... got around without any issues.

Personal preference... we have some ****ty roads around here (salt+snow) and I regularly commute in the city... I am 95% of the time on comfort mode. Again, fundamental differences.

[quote]Couple things.
The new E60 is actually much lighter than E39 it replaces. The new E60 is less than 100LB lighter than the new E90. That should tell you that BMW spend quiet a bit of time to trim the weight down from E39. I think BMW is aware of the problem with extra mass. Couple with active roll stablization to compensate for extra mass and size, I don't think M5 will be worse than E46 in handling capabilities.

New desing incorporate more new technology. M5 being 5 model years later than E46 M3 really has benefited from that. (Of course the new E90 M3 will probably be better than E60 M5 in handling). [quote]

Moot, the fact is the E46 M3 is designed as a sports coupe and does it very well. The M3 will always be a superior performance car than the M5 even if the M5 is faster simply because the M3 is able to stay truer to the sports car philosophy. The E60 may be close to the E46, but it's again that one comes before the other, the original M5 came out during the E36, then the E46 came out during the E39, then the E60 will come out just after the E46 ends it's cycle, and the E90, and so on.

Keep in mind - this is for a sports car. After experiencing the SMGII there's no way in HELL I'd have that thing in my daily driver. Good lord that thing was downright awful. Great for performance, terrible for daily driving. SMGs are for race cars IMO, 6-speeds for sports cars.

I have never seen BMW underrate any of their ///M cars by 10%, although I have seen them underrated. The E55 is rated at 476 and makes up to 550. that's nearly a 15% underrating. The M5 is not going to have that, not even close, especially remembering it will usually be driving around in 400hp mode... it seems that this car is tuned to such an edge that they go to the extent of having two power modes (I can't even think of any other production car that has had this type of system implemented).

To address your conclusion, I feel the opposite. It's a toss up and I still would have to lean a little towards the W211. The M5 is going to have less hp than the E55 and a boatload less torque. E55 won't touch it's Nurburgring times, but acceleration is still uncertain.

-m

cte430

This is a great point that many of the M5 fans fail to see. I have stayed out of this "discussion" to this point, since I just don't understand some of the hysteria from both camps. If the M5 is faster, as I expect it to be (would be tough for BMW to come out with a slower car after how many years ) that fact will not change how I feel about my car. Anyone who bought an E55 simply because it was the fastest sedan out there is a little silly, IMHO. Things change. I'm sure the next AMG will be faster (although I'd rather see them address some of the other issues) and so on.

Back to Marcus' point. Many of the M fans will say "the MB is just fast in a straight line". The M is the whole package". Whole package? Last time I checked there are some other criteria I look at in a car. Maybe it's just me. Looks, comfort, interior, etc. Isn't that also part of the package? There are sacrifices in everything, and choices have to be made. Since most of my time in the car will be like Marcus (no mountain "twisties" here) I made the choice that was right for me. I do have to chuckle though at many M fans on the M5board (BTW, i'm a member there and have always been treated great and with the utmost respect) who have said "well, the looks are starting to grow on me". I'm sorry, but if I'm going to spend 90K I don't want it to have to grow on me.

For a little bit of a different perspective on this whole thing. The other night I was reading all this stuff while my wife was watching TV next to me. She's certainly no car enthusiast, but does know about AMG and the "enemy" LOL. I let her read some of the threads. She looks at me and says: "these are grown men who can afford a $90K car, arguing about how many 10ths of a second one is faster than the other?" "Pretty much", I said. Her next question: "how many people and how often do you get to extract all the performance these cars are capable of, that they talk about in these tests"? My answer: "almost none and almost never I would think". "But you still argue about it"?, she asks. "Of course we do". Her final comment before walking away in total disgust (women, they just don't get it!): "So, while you're sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on the LIE one of these days a new M5 is going to pull up along side you, and what, hold up a magazine showing the tests that he's faster than you"?