More rumors about new N/A motor hp.....
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by BlownV8
Once again hp = tq * rpm/5252. A larger displacement engine will not need to rev that high to make 100 hp per liter. In the large displacement engine, it's all about keeping the torque high until around 6000 rpm and the hp will follow. HP is just a measurement of TQ so discusssing hp is really not such an important measure. We should really discuss torque and rpm because that's the only thing that matters when you are talking about hp. Without torque and rpm there would be no hp.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
Likes: 381
2005 E55
blown once again you fail to see what im trying to say.its not about making 100hp/l its about MB making 600hp from an NA v8.its not going to happen.
the frigen mclaren f1 makes 627 NA hp with a 6l v12 and you think a mb NA v8 can make it.
BTW iv heard turner motorsports F1 and let me tell you its sound like a fighter jet.
Not even bmw can make that much power from a v8 and even the new z06 with its 7l v8 is only putting out 500 so please shut up.
Now ill ask you once more please explain to me on how MB is going to get 600 plus hp out of a v8 without using 13.1 compression or even higher.
the frigen mclaren f1 makes 627 NA hp with a 6l v12 and you think a mb NA v8 can make it.
BTW iv heard turner motorsports F1 and let me tell you its sound like a fighter jet.
Not even bmw can make that much power from a v8 and even the new z06 with its 7l v8 is only putting out 500 so please shut up.
Now ill ask you once more please explain to me on how MB is going to get 600 plus hp out of a v8 without using 13.1 compression or even higher.
Last edited by skratch77; May 11, 2005 at 02:35 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
the frigen mclaren f1 makes 627 NA hp with a 6l v12 and you think a mb NA v8 can make it.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
Likes: 381
2005 E55
Originally Posted by BlownV8
Ok, please tell me why a V8 can't make that same hp/liter? I've shown you example of V8 street motors that can make that hp/liter. What is so magical about the V10 or V12 that is an impossible feat for a V8? Heck, a 4 cylinder can do that and so can a 6 cylinder so I guess the V8 is just a big lump of metal with no potential?
You need more cyl and very high revs to make that much hp(600 hp)NA
Im not talking about 100hp/l im talking about making 600 hp with a v8.
bmw had to make the v10 because the harmonics of a v8 cant rev as high and the fireing order in the upper rpms messes every thing up.
Just sit back and think of what this 6l v8 rumors are saying.As much power as a por/gt with a v8 is just crazzy.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by SoulBladeZA
A petrol engine would detonate at higher than 13:1
Again, never say never.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 28,933
Likes: 12
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
Back in 1970 in the USA, we saw compression drop from a high of about 12.5:1 down to about 7.5:1. People were saying back then that we would never see high compression street engines again. Well, gasoline today is lower in octane than it was in 1970 and we routinely see 10:1 compression and higher engines that run on 91 octane unleaded just fine.
Again, never say never.
Again, never say never.
I have a question, can engines be made so they have variable compression?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
He didn't say never though
I have a question, can engines be made so they have variable compression?
I have a question, can engines be made so they have variable compression?
When it comes to detonation, compression is not the evil fiend that everyone thinks it is. Cylinder pressure is the biggest reason engines ping. I can build an engine with 20:1 compression and make it run on regular unleaded. How? Big cam overlap where the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time (or leave the exhaust valve open past BDC on the intake stroke). This will lower the amount of air/fuel in the cylinder that has to be compressed. The engine may not run very efficiently but hopefully you understand what is happening here.
Variable valve timing achieves your goal by varying the cylinder pressure with valve timing adjustments.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
My memory is not what it used to be but one or more of those manufacturers use variable intake ports as a means to altering engine output. This too has an effect on cylinder pressure. Higher velocity intake tract means more A/F is crammed into the cylinder to be compressed.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
So higher velocity also means more compression right?
NO! Compression ratio is static. It is basically, the volume of the cylinder with piston at BDC in relation to the volume of the combustion chamber. These values are not dynamic.
Imagine the cylinder is at rest at BDC and therefore filled with air at atmospheric pressure (assume 0 psi). When the piston makes it to TDC, the pressure rises (to what level is not important). Now, imagine if you were to put a compressed air hose on that same cylinder at rest at BDC and pressurized it before the piston made its way to TDC. The resulting cylinder pressure would be much greater than the first test becaue you started with more air.
The compression ratio did not change but cylinder pressure did. Make sense?
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 28,933
Likes: 12
I gotcha, it makes sense. And it's my fault that this thread got hijacked. Sorry guys.
So the compression ratio stays the same, but the cylinder pressure and changeable by the valves timings.
Man, cars get complicated fast.
So the compression ratio stays the same, but the cylinder pressure and changeable by the valves timings.
Man, cars get complicated fast.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
there are no 4,6,8 or even 10 NA engines making over 600 hp its freaking damn near impossible.
You can get a 600 plus hp small block V8 for $13,000 from these guys:
http://www.badasscars.com/engineprices/chevsb.html
Oops, here is a 340 cubic inch V8 engine that has 600+ hp on 91 octane:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t.../155_0310_340/
Oh wait, there's more. Here is another article that tells you how to build a 600 hp small block V8 that runs on 92 octane:
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/1004/
Uh-oh, I keep finding more and more evidence that you are clueless about V8's:
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/03catalog/engines.pdf#search='600%20hp%20small%20block'
Here is a 675 hp small block V8:
http://www.speedomotive.com/675_hp_small_block_4.htm
Here is another 600 hp small block. 600 hp at 6,000 rpm and dirt cheap with off the shelf parts.
http://www.sporttruck.com/techarticles/84258/
Another 600 hp NA V8 that runs on pump gas:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/76858/
I can go on and on and on to show you how easy it is to get power from a V8. For some unknown reason, you seem to doubt that a V8 can be made to produce much power. The above examples us an engine design that is decades old. A new V8 design utilizing multiple overhead valves and cams, variable valve timing, and silica impregnated aluminum bores or aluminum bores that are coated with Nickasil has even more potential to make big power from a naturally aspirated engine. "Freakin' damn near impossible." I don't think so.
Last edited by BlownV8; May 11, 2005 at 10:30 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
From: .
.
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
Not exactly true. There are many factors that determine an engine's torque characteristic. Let's see...cam profile and timing, combustion chamber profile, piston quench, piston dwell time, rod length, piston pin height, rotating mass, intake and exhaust port flow and profile, stroke, igntion timing and output, friction, etc.
An increase of bore alone on an otherwise properly tuned engine will increase torque not only at the peak but also on the bottom end. Why? Increased displacement causes an increase in port velocity and better cylinder filling. At higher RPM, the torque increase is not as great if there at all due to increased rotating mass and friction. Also, the larger piston area gives the combustion gasses more leverage to push on the crank. The meaning of PSI should help expalin this.
An increase of bore alone on an otherwise properly tuned engine will increase torque not only at the peak but also on the bottom end. Why? Increased displacement causes an increase in port velocity and better cylinder filling. At higher RPM, the torque increase is not as great if there at all due to increased rotating mass and friction. Also, the larger piston area gives the combustion gasses more leverage to push on the crank. The meaning of PSI should help expalin this.
Also one also has to look at any production car on the planet that is NA its peak torque is very very strongly governed by absolute displacement. Take 100Nm/L as a good guide and highly tuned good flowing engines get maybe 110Nm/L
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
From: .
.
Originally Posted by BlownV8
You are the most clueless person that I've ever seen on any car board in my life. Every single V8 NASCAR engine makes over 600 hp and they use a freakin' push rod engine with carburators!
You can get a 600 plus hp small block V8 for $13,000 from these guys:
http://www.badasscars.com/engineprices/chevsb.html
Oops, here is a 340 cubic inch V8 engine that has 600+ hp on 91 octane:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t.../155_0310_340/
Oh wait, there's more. Here is another article that tells you how to build a 600 hp small block V8 that runs on 92 octane:
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/1004/
Uh-oh, I keep finding more and more evidence that you are clueless about V8's:
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/03catalog/engines.pdf#search='600%20hp%20small%20block'
Here is a 675 hp small block V8:
http://www.speedomotive.com/675_hp_small_block_4.htm
Here is another 600 hp small block. 600 hp at 6,000 rpm and dirt cheap with off the shelf parts.
http://www.sporttruck.com/techarticles/84258/
Another 600 hp NA V8 that runs on pump gas:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/76858/
I can go on and on and on to show you how easy it is to get power from a V8. For some unknown reason, you seem to doubt that a V8 can be made to produce much power. The above examples us an engine design that is decades old. A new V8 design utilizing multiple overhead valves and cams, variable valve timing, and silica impregnated aluminum bores or aluminum bores that are coated with Nickasil has even more potential to make big power from a naturally aspirated engine. "Freakin' damn near impossible." I don't think so.
You can get a 600 plus hp small block V8 for $13,000 from these guys:
http://www.badasscars.com/engineprices/chevsb.html
Oops, here is a 340 cubic inch V8 engine that has 600+ hp on 91 octane:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t.../155_0310_340/
Oh wait, there's more. Here is another article that tells you how to build a 600 hp small block V8 that runs on 92 octane:
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/1004/
Uh-oh, I keep finding more and more evidence that you are clueless about V8's:
http://www.worldcastings.com/docs/03catalog/engines.pdf#search='600%20hp%20small%20block'
Here is a 675 hp small block V8:
http://www.speedomotive.com/675_hp_small_block_4.htm
Here is another 600 hp small block. 600 hp at 6,000 rpm and dirt cheap with off the shelf parts.
http://www.sporttruck.com/techarticles/84258/
Another 600 hp NA V8 that runs on pump gas:
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/76858/
I can go on and on and on to show you how easy it is to get power from a V8. For some unknown reason, you seem to doubt that a V8 can be made to produce much power. The above examples us an engine design that is decades old. A new V8 design utilizing multiple overhead valves and cams, variable valve timing, and silica impregnated aluminum bores or aluminum bores that are coated with Nickasil has even more potential to make big power from a naturally aspirated engine. "Freakin' damn near impossible." I don't think so.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
Here are some other naturally aspirated V8's making above 600 hp and well above 100 hp/liter, enjoy:
http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/transam/stats/
http://www.7extrememotorsports.com/transam/stats/
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
Likes: 381
2005 E55
BLOWN will you ever give up....IM TALKING ABOUT STOCK RELIABLE POWER omg your so ****ing stupid
I know tuner companies can make that power
wow you brought up nascar that get a engine rebuild 3 times a week good job buddy.
IM SAYING MB WILL NOT PUT OUT A NA V8 making 600 hp
ill bet you 100 bucks it wont be 600hp NA
I know tuner companies can make that power
wow you brought up nascar that get a engine rebuild 3 times a week good job buddy.
IM SAYING MB WILL NOT PUT OUT A NA V8 making 600 hp
ill bet you 100 bucks it wont be 600hp NA
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by reggid
i'm talking increasing bore but reducing stroke to keep the displacement the same. The stroke gives the "leverage" so by incresing the area you will increase the force but if you shorten stroke some if this is undone. Choosing the correct stroke to bore cannot be discussed in this thread as if will take forever and there is no single right answer. one only has to look at an f1 engine with big bore short stroke (to allow more revs) and the kind of characeritics it has and its certainly not bottom end grunt.
Also one also has to look at any production car on the planet that is NA its peak torque is very very strongly governed by absolute displacement. Take 100Nm/L as a good guide and highly tuned good flowing engines get maybe 110Nm/L
Also one also has to look at any production car on the planet that is NA its peak torque is very very strongly governed by absolute displacement. Take 100Nm/L as a good guide and highly tuned good flowing engines get maybe 110Nm/L
Increase bore and keep stroke the same is what I was referring to.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by AlBoston
actually saab makes a variable compression engine by using a special headgasket that changes the volume of the combustion chamber.
Thanks for the info Al.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,445
Likes: 3
From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
Originally Posted by AlBoston
no prob, i assume u are an engineer as well?
With all of the advancement in engine technology these days, it is very possible that MB will produce a reliable and drivable V8 making 100hp/liter.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
BLOWN will you ever give up....IM TALKING ABOUT STOCK RELIABLE POWER omg your so ****ing stupid
Just about every major manufacturer can build a NA V8 with a good bit more than 100 hp/L. Manufacturers use race engines as test beds for their street engines and take the knowledge and apply it to make a car more reliable. With modern engine management systems and variable valve timing, making huge reliable hp is not that difficult.
Yes, Mercedes can make a reliable V8 with over 600 hp. There is no doubt that they could do this. Will they, I don't know. They have surprised me many times with past engines so I wouldn't put anything in the never catagory with them. It is totally assinine for anyone to think that Mercedes couldn't build a reliable big hp NA V8 motor.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
Likes: 381
2005 E55
when have I said MB cant make an 100hp/l engine I said they won't.
do you think that this special 600 hp v8 will last 200k miles and 20 years like almost every mb enigine ever built?
Im sure they could heck BMW in the 70's made a turbo M that had 400Hp/l
800 hp out of a 2.0 l 4 banger.
that car needed a rebuild after everyrace.
its not MB heritage to make a high strung 600 hp v8.They have never came out with any engine near 100 hp/l STOCK and wont
we have 300k miles on our 1983 300 turbo d still runs mint too.
do you think that this special 600 hp v8 will last 200k miles and 20 years like almost every mb enigine ever built?
Im sure they could heck BMW in the 70's made a turbo M that had 400Hp/l
800 hp out of a 2.0 l 4 banger.
that car needed a rebuild after everyrace.
its not MB heritage to make a high strung 600 hp v8.They have never came out with any engine near 100 hp/l STOCK and wont
we have 300k miles on our 1983 300 turbo d still runs mint too.
