Jakpro1

Bottom line....NOONE really knows...which is good. We can still hope for upper 5's in hp.

(Each one from a different automotive website)

1) It's rumoured that like the current S-Class, which comes in S55 and S65 AMG forms, the R-Class, actually longer than an S in length, will also get two AMG derivatives. First, pictured here, is the R55 with the familiar 476bhp, 5.5-litre supercharged V8 as used in several other Mercedes AMG models. Second would be a new 6.3-litre V8, reportedly under development for use in the next-generation S-Class, developing closer to 600bhp and dubbed R63 AMG.

2) ML63 AMG with 496 hp and 6.3 liter V8 to appear in 2006 Codenamed M156, it is an all-new normally aspirated 6.3-liter V8. The M156 is being developed under AMG engine boss Rolf Zimmermann, who is the mastermind behind the 367-hp normally aspirated (M113 E55) and 500-hp supercharged 5.4-liter V8 powerplants (M113 E55 mL) in AMG models now. Zimmermann also developed the 555-hp 7.3-liter V12 engine that powers the Pagani Zonda S.

skratch77

Why are they stoping there F/I engines?A 6.3 liter v8 will drink up so much gas.

they should make a 5L v12 and 5L v10 and keep gas prices down.

theres no way there going to make a 6.3l v8 NA make 600hp.thats 95hp/L MB hasnt even made that much power/L with there forced induction.

im not saying they cant make it but the new zo6 is a 7plus L v8 and only makes 500 hp NA

BMW would bow down to them if they made a 600 hp NA beast with a NA v8
its not gona happen

BlownV8

I'm not exactly sure what to say without deragoratory name calling but I'll try my best. Why on Earth would you think that Mercedes couldn't make a naturally aspirated engine with 95 hp/liter? Mercedes has been making engines for about as long as anyone. They could make it over 100 hp/liter if they wanted as could Honda, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Volkswagen, GM, ETC... Making hp is not very difficult but making an engine with huge torque and huge hp from tearing up the driveline is a bit difficult.

Mercedes is going to make the most dependable engine that it possibly can. They don't want warranty claims because it takes money away from their bottom line profit. The only thing that holds automakers back from huge horsepower is the sum of the parts required to make it dependable. You mentioned the new ZO6 and it only having 500 hp. Do you honestly believe that's all the hp that motor can produce? They can and do make over 700 hp from that engine in naturally aspirated form and run it all day long in races and in testing.

FASN8N

AMG owners did not buy their cars for gas mileage lol. Probably the last concern on their list!

skratch77

ok ill try and explain to you a little bit about how hard it is to make an engine with close to 100hp/l and not blow up.

first mb would need to use a a big bore and short stroke(say goodbye to low end tourqe)then they would need veryhigh compression(seeya dependability)then they would need very high revs to make 100hp/l and there using a huge 6.3 l displacment(KABOOM)theres a reason F1 cars and all high revving high hp/l engines are small displacement...So they dont blow up.so there goes your MBs dependable engine.

Now id love for you to show me 1 zo6 that got 200hp with bolt ons thats still NA.

Jakpro1

That's the SAME thing I was thinking. If you can afford a 100,000$ car.....gas going from 2.00 to 2.50 a gallon pisses ya off....but doesn't really "worry you". Even overseas with it being over 5 a gallon, it doesn't keep you up and night does it?

By the way, the reliability comment was spot on. It's all a balancing act of profit and performance. Benz gives us pretty good motor performance.....I'm happy.....you always want more...but that's just human nature.

.....boy we are kinda "takin it to" this skratch77 guy eh....no offense meant skratch.....just healthy debate..........

skratch77

the whole gas thing was brought up because in other countries you need to pay huge fees on having cars with huge engines.this car will cost 20k more in some countries just because of its huge engine.

gas here is 2 plus a gallon but in most of the world its double that.

im not hating the new MB but you guys are going to be upset when this eninge will make 500 hp tops staying NA.

lets see 2 less cyl than the new M5 and 100 hp more go MB

Lov2xlr8

he didnt say cant, he said they never did before and i agree with him. i dont remember what mag, but they said the 6.3L engine will have 535hp.

BlownV8

Here is a good example of a 5.0L Porsche 928 motor that has been bored to 104 mm and stroked to 95.25 mm with 10.4:1 compression. That's pretty much what Mercedes will do to their engine. It's making close to 100 hp per liter in naturally aspirated form. This is a street car that is registered in California and is driven to and from open road races and travels above 200 mph in the races. It's a 6.5 liter motor with custom cams, ported heads, and individual throttle bodies. It's not rocket science and it wasn't made with a multi-million dollar engine development budget. http://www.devek.net/index.php?page=nfo_cars_whitecar

Here is a company that will give you a 600+ hp NA 427. http://www.motorsporttech.com/

The C5R had a 427 LS1 engine that made 700 hp but was forced to run restrictor plates that brought it down to around 600. Call this guy and tell him he can't get 700 hp from a 427 Corvette engine:
http://www.charleswhite.net/gallery_...fm?sstr=37.JPG

You can also argue with these guys that you can't get over 100 hp per liter out of a NA Corvette 427: http://www.z06vette.com/forums/archi...ex.php/t-63872

Jakpro1

Man, like we are gonna be driving around timebombs or something.

skratch77

again find me 1 z06 that made 700 hp from just bolt ons and you think 10.5 compression is high.

for that mb engine to make that much power it would need a minimum of 13.1 and good luck making that thing run on 91 oct.

i never said an engine cant be made from a tuner or mb to that high of a rating.You said it yourself that mb will build a dependable engine.Its not going to be a high stung NA engine.

600 NA hp out of a v8 on 91oct is not going to happen just wait and see.

I could see them making a v12 or v10 and making that power but not out of a v8 for the very reasons you talked about MBs engines.

MKW

And such a MBZ OEM motor it will pass all worldwide emissions ( getting much strictor in next few years) , noise regs , and emissions certification for at least 100K miles ( EPA ) or face millions in penalties if not , right !? And still have the signature MBZ AMG stump pulling power right off the line , not in the last 500 rpm on a track at WOT ?

E55AMG99

Funny, we were saying something similar back in 1970 when the emmissions boom was lowered on us. "We'll never see 500HP engines from the factory again". Accounting for HP rating differences, I'd say we've been eating those words for quite a few years now. Point is, never say never.

BTW, increasing the bore alone can also increase torque.

MBE55AMG

Amen.

BlownV8

I never said that you could get that with bolt ons. I was using the Corvette C5-R engine as an example and gave links to other tuners that could give you 100 hp per liter. However, you still seem to have this delusion that Mercedes with their multi-million dollar budgets and years of experience building engines could never build a 100 hp per liter engine. So, only BMW and Honda can build a 100 hp per liter. If you honestly believe this, you are as dumb as a post!

Why do you think you would need 13:1 compression to make that much power? Honda can make over 100 hp per liter from 11:1 compression. I guess Mercedes is a bunch of dumb hicks that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground. When you have a larger displacement engine, you do not need to rev the motor as high to make hp. Once again, hp = tq * rpm/5252. A large displacement engine is going to make big hp as long as you can keep the torque from dropping off before 6,000 rpm. That's not such a hard feat when you have three or four valves per cylinder and the use of variable valve timing makes it that much easier. Let's not even throw in the trump card of direct injection. You will be able to run much higer compression engines on lower octaine without the fear of preignition.

So 500 hp on 91 octane is possible in a 5.0L V10 engine but not in a 6.0L V8? Ferrari can get 112 hp/liter out of a V8 with 11.3:1 but Mercedes can't get 100 hp/liter and they'd need 13.0:1 to get there? Get freakin' real!

Ok, why do you think that you can't get that much power from a V8? Do you really believe what you are saying or are you just running out of garbage to throw on the screen.

Lov2xlr8

ye but if you look at the tourqe numbers on those engines you will know why MB wont make an engine like those. and yes MB can make engines like those and iam sure better, but the reality is that MB isnt going to make an engine like those.

Lov2xlr8

ye but if you look at the tourqe numbers on those engines you will know why MB wont make an engine like those. and yes MB can make engines like those and iam sure better, but the reality is that MB isnt going to make an engine like those.

M&M

BlownV8, no-one is saying AMG can't do 100hp/litre NA. Hell I bet even Kia or Hyundai could do it if they wanted. The questions are they going to put a highly strung engine into a MErcedes car. I think you know they aren't going to do that. A MErcedes cuastomer is different to a BMW customer who is different to a Honda customer.

A MErcedes customer doesn't want a high revving 100hp/litre car, or else he would go buy an M5. He wants a relaxed drive with loads of low down torque & he doesn't want to rev above 5000rpm to get the power. Maybe you should go talk to the MErcedes board & convince them to change their corporate strategy.

reggid

finally some common sense?

There is no chance that the NA 6.3L will make 630hp from the factory not because they can't, but because they don't want to. BMW didn't take the AMG way with the new M5 and AMG won't go the BMW route with the E63.

one would assume that an engine will be built to surpass the 65 motors but i'll bet on FI for them.

Bore won't really increase torque except maybe at higher rpms rather than improving the absolute peak, which is pretty much displacement based.

Also a 5L V8 can manage pretty much the same output as a 5L V10 in road form its only when you go past 10000rpm that it may cause grief.

BlownV8

That's not what I was reading on Sketchys posts, see above quote. He was saying that Mercedes could not build a 100 hp/liter V8 engine without it being a grenade or without using 13.0:1 compression and the statement was completely incorrect!

I don't think they will release a NA motor that is more than 100 hp/liter but I wouldn't just blindly say that it will never happen. I was as surprised as hell that they ever released a twin-turbo V12 for the street. Let's not forget the CLK-GTM.

skratch77

BLOWN your a moron.

I never said they cant make a 100hp/l I said they wont make one because MB builds dependable engines.

ok now back to the 600 hp from a v8 rumore that you think is possible with out 13.1 compression please do tell me how there going to make 100 more hp than the new m5 with 2 less cylenders when the new m5 is using 12.1 compression??????????????????

any one today can make 100hp/l you stupid if you think MB will go that route with its new NA engines.even my grandfather used to tell me that MB engines last forever.Hell even you said MB will build a dependable engine.MB didnt even brake 80hp/l when using a damn compressor(for dependability) and you think out of nowhere there going to make an NA engine with more power.

thats like bmw using forced induction on there M cars

skratch77

BLOWN your a moron.

I never said they cant make a 100hp/l I said they wont make one because MB builds dependable engines.

ok now back to the 600 hp from a v8 rumore that you think is possible with out 13.1 compression please do tell me how there going to make 100 more hp than the new m5 with 2 less cylenders when the new m5 is using 12.1 compression??????????????????

any one today can make 100hp/l you stupid if you think MB will go that route with its new NA engines.even my grandfather used to tell me that MB engines last forever.Hell even you said MB will build a dependable engine.MB didnt even brake 80hp/l when using a damn compressor(for dependability) and you think out of nowhere there going to make an NA engine with more power.

thats like bmw using forced induction on there M cars

Its funny how you brought up the twin turbo v12 with its 612hp engine and think that a mb NA v8 will mak the same power.

MB is about comfort and stability.

Have you ever been in an s2000,M3,M5 or farrari to see and hear how laud there NA engines are to make that 100hp/l power.

Im sorry but i just dont see MB going the way with its new cars.

Tony007

I think the real point about additional horsepower is being missed completely. It's a matter of teasing you year after year with a little bit of horsepower at a time. Point being is that they still have something to be able to give you the year after that.. Give it all at once and what's left to give?

E55AMG99

Not exactly true. There are many factors that determine an engine's torque characteristic. Let's see...cam profile and timing, combustion chamber profile, piston quench, piston dwell time, rod length, piston pin height, rotating mass, intake and exhaust port flow and profile, stroke, igntion timing and output, friction, etc.

An increase of bore alone on an otherwise properly tuned engine will increase torque not only at the peak but also on the bottom end. Why? Increased displacement causes an increase in port velocity and better cylinder filling. At higher RPM, the torque increase is not as great if there at all due to increased rotating mass and friction. Also, the larger piston area gives the combustion gasses more leverage to push on the crank. The meaning of PSI should help expalin this.

BlownV8

Moron? Doesn't mean much coming from an absolute idiot who knows nothing about engines and keeps spreading their ignorance all over this board!

OK, let me go slowly. What the hell does 10 cylinders have to do with a Mercedes engine making 100 hp/liter? They can make a 6.3L v8 with 100 hp/liter on pump gas if they wanted or a 4 cylinder or a 6 cylinder. It doesn't need to be a V10 or a V12 to make that kind of power. You've got V10 on the brain. Get over it because you sound very stupid.

Now you are saying that anyone can make 100 hp/l but a few pages ago you were saying that Mercedes could never make 100 hp/liter. Now, you are saying that Mercedes can't build a dependable 100 hp/liter NA engine. Once again, get real! Please give me you knowledge and facts as to why it can't be dependable. Oh, but BMW, Ferrari, and Honda can build a dependable 100 hp/liter but not Mercedes?

Mercedes didn't hold back on the power because they thought the engine would grenade. They held back due to the tranny and not the engine. Why release an engine with more hp than was needed to beat the crap out of the last generation M5. They want to leave more power for the next generation. It's more about marketing and sales than engineering.

As seen on this site, the E55 engine is easily upgradable to very high hp levels. That's a great thing about forced induction. I could care less if they built a 100 hp/liter NA motor. I'd still prefer a forced induction motor due to the ease in extracting more hp.


I just brought that up because it's an example of Mercedes stepping outside the box and throwing in a twin-turbo V12. That engine is greatly detuned because Mercedes doesn't have a tranny that can dependably handle the torque. The Mercedes tt V12 can make a whole heck of a lot more power than it does.

Yes, they sound great. However, they are both relatively small displacement engines and must be reved to a much higher rpm level than a larger displacement would need. Once again hp = tq * rpm/5252. A larger displacement engine will not need to rev that high to make 100 hp per liter. In the large displacement engine, it's all about keeping the torque high until around 6000 rpm and the hp will follow. HP is just a measurement of TQ so discusssing hp is really not such an important measure. We should really discuss torque and rpm because that's the only thing that matters when you are talking about hp. Without torque and rpm there would be no hp.