Rafal

I am considering installing headers ONLY on the 2005 E55 without upgrading the ECU. Will I still get any performance improvement (granted, less than with the ECU upgrade) or is it just going to be an expensive "trumpet"?
Has anyone tried it? There are many reasons to keep the ECU stock.

I had big improvements in performance by installing a flow through exhaust on an E430, but there was no S/C boost to consider.

Evolution Marine

Rafal - I do not have any first hand experience, however I would check with some of the aftermarket tuners on A/F ratio issues. Could get a little lean, especially on a cold winter day.
I would think you will experience some HP increase but I am sure you know that you are leaving some HP on the table by not tuning the motor for the headers, especially after seeing the OEM exhaust manifolds and how inefficient they must be compared to the after-market headers. - Bob

vrus

The answer to your question comes down to the design of the type of headers you are looking for.

I will take 2 of the most popular and give you an idea of what I am talking about... EVOSport headers and Kleemann headers.

EVOSport headers maintain equal to factory I.D. tube size. Because the I.D. hasn't been increased the exhaust velocity remains high. If you bolt this type of header into your car you should not lose any boost pressure and the A/F ratio should change slightly because of the increased efficiency and flow of the header. The stock ECU would compensate for the changes and you could get away without reprogramming.

Kleemann headers use a "long tube" design with race style merge collectors. Their merge collector size is 3" (from what I can remember). I can almost guarantee that if you install this header you will lose 1 to 2 lbs of boost and will run leaner. Because of the bigger port design and collector design exhaust velocity would be slower with this header. I would be willing to bet you would lose power if you installed the Kleemann header WITHOUT reprogramming the ECU.

Now, just to be 100% clear... I think the Kleemann header is an AWESOME product, but, I dont think it is a good idea to just buy their header alone and just slap it in without reprogramming. I think the reprogramming has to be done to compensate for the boost loss and the velocity drop.

So, in the end, you need to decide how far you want to take your mods on the car and what you are willing to change to accomplish your goals. If you want something that will just make the car more efficient but dont want to go through the hassle of reprogramming and such, I would recommend you pick up the EVO headers.

If you want to go to the N-th degree of mods and want something that will support the most horsepower from your car I would say the Kleemann design will support MORE horsepower than the EVO design.

What that horsepower limit is I dont know.. but we do know that the EVO is good for at least 600hp.

I hope this helps you a little bit...

Jakpro1

Once you drive the beast with ecu AND headers....you'll know. Honest dude...night and day. Throttle response....accel....it's all different...and tighter.

Plus that m'thr f'in lag is gone that everyone talks about.....

It's like buying a Lambo, but skimping on the gull wings (if you could) ....you gotta go all the way. No regrets....I promise.

JamE55

Victor,

Just curious have you dynoed your car lately with the current mods you have? How much rwhp/crank are you putting down? Any problems so far?

Fast55

I doubt you would have any problems, as the ECU should adjust to keep you from going too lean. However, VRUS has good info here. You most certainly will lose torque with the larger tube headers, if not peak HP. In fact, you might actually gain slightly on your peak, but again, at a loss probably everywhere else along with the lost torque. If you are willing to spend this much, I wouldn't be too concerned about ECU mods as well. If that's out of the question for one reason or another, why not consider a spare (modified) ECU and the stocker for trips to the dealer?

medici78

What do you folks mean by "boost loss"? The boost is set by the pulley, not the ECU. Also, when dealing with boosted vehicles, I have always been told the less restriction the better.

vrus

Medici78,

True. Boost is controlled by the pulley. True, the lower the restrictions on F.I. the better. But, you are not taking into account VOLUME increases/decreases. Restriction changes and volume changes are 2 different things.

The amount of air that can be pushed by the supercharger at a fixed boost level is relatively CONSTANT (lets ignore altitude changes). If you increase the volume of the chamber that you are trying to fill (ie your headers, exhaust system, etc) then at the same fixed boost, the supercharger MIGHT NOT be able to push enough air to fill that chamber (this really depends on how much of a change in volume occurs) and therefore your peak boost will drop. In order to compensate against this, the fuel maps and ignition maps usually get reprogrammed to take advantage of the increased efficiencies. With the Kleemann headers I am sure there is a big enough change in sizing that this is what will happen.

With the bigger header pipes, low and midrange torque will be lower and peak boost will be lower. You will gain top-end power with the bigger pipes. The gains will only be seen at the top end of the scale without getting a reprogram.

Maybe Cory @ Kleemann and/or Brad @ EVO could chime in and confirm some of this...

JamE55,

To be honest the headers and cooling upgrade are still sitting in my garage waiting to be installed. My business is just too crazy these days and I dont have alot of time for the car lately. I am trying to get some install time scheduled so they should be installed soon.

JamE55

^^ Victor no worries. Pls keep us posted on your car.

Cory @ Kleemann

You will see great performance improvements with just the headers and no ECU. Of course, there is more HP to be had if the ECU is tuned for the headers. Contrary to what most people believe, you can actually REMOVE fuel and increase timing when adding headers due to the fact that EGT's drop significantly, as does exhaust back pressure. MB fuel dumps on the 55K cars to cool the combustion chamber post combustion event due to the huge restriction the factory manifolds and downpipes have. MB runs very rich AFR's from the factory to keep NOX emissions down. You're safe running just headers without ECU (you'll actually be on the rich side), but you won't realize the maximum gains if you don't do the ECU.

Rafal

Thank you for your knowledge! This is a custom design, similar (in architecture at least) to the Kleemann layout, but,I think , with smaller diameter pipes: 41mm inlets (1 5/8" ID) and 62mm collector (2.5" ID). What do you think?

OzE55

Rafal,
Who, where and how much?

stevebez

Sounds to me thats why kleemann have the pulley+ECU+Headers upgrade. You need the quicker pulley to up the blowers output to compensate for the effectively larger volume left by the more efficient headers....

Or have I got it all backwards...

Rgsd Steve.

vrus

Rafal,

I would say that unless you are getting a great deal on these and/or you know someone that has already installed a set I wouldnt risk it. The specs sound good but its hard to tell if the header will perform without seeing pictures of the design.. Most people say all the power from headers are to be made based on the collector design... Get a picture showing what the inside of the collector looks like. That will give you a good indication of whether they are a quality product or not.

I know that the EVO and Kleemann products are a bit pricey but they are a proven product and you know they will install properly and function.

P.S-> The headers you are thinking about aren't the stainless steel headers that are made in Japan which are on Ebay right now for $500 are they?

Good Luck!!

medici78

Those headers sound like a killer deal. But custom $500 headers from Japan?? Reminds me of the Chinese knockoff headers so common nowadays. I've seen some very nice headers/manifolds for imports that are made in China. An example is the knockoff HKS turbo manifold that sells from HKS for almost $2000, yet the buy-it-now for those is about $200.00. A local guy dynoed 590rwhp on an Integra with a $200 header.
Still, considering the miniscule market for E55 headers, I imagine there's more to the story here. I doubt anyone's ready to mass market this type of item.

danvelvet33

Hi Everybody
I'm the one listing those Headers on Ebay.
I was told by the previous owner that those were ordered from Japan , but I have no other info about them .
The previous owner was a wealthy business man who totalled the E55 and now driving a 760iL. I think he 's not lying.
I only know , that the headers look well made , quality pieces.
I also made more pics of them , so I hope it helps the bidders to decide.
Thanks Dennis

vraa

Well don't forget, on a lot of these super mass produced cars, almost any modification to the breathing system unleashes tons of horsepower!

medici78

The Integra had A LOT more done to it than just a turbo kit. Still for what he spent on that car he got a 400% increase in rwhp. That same amount would barely give me a 25% increase, and even that is wishful thinking.

Sunny55

I actually have this setup.....

I have the evosport headers, WITHOUT ecu/pulley. I also have the intake spacers fron evosport, k&n air filters, and resonator delete pipes.

I did this because i did not want to raise the boost.....for various reasons, i'm sure u can all figure it out from previous posts about raising boost and heat soak. And i wasn't looking to go crazy.....

I did this about 4 months ago and i have enjoyed the increased power. I have never dynoed my car, but I assure you that the power and torque both increased. I know my car very well and how if performs and the before and after differenct is quite nice. I really don't know how much of an increase in power, but as all my friends who have driven my car and their stock e55s, they all love the difference and sound.....

As for the sound... it is more aggressive under acceleration and revving the engine sounds much better now, stock sound was pretty weak..... at idle it was only a slight improvement. It finally sounds mean when i start the engine.

It is still not as fast as a few of my friends stage 2 kleemann 55's

medici78

Did you install the headers yourself? How difficult was it?

Sunny55

no, i did not perform the install, i do not have the experience....i had a buddy of mine (Carl jr.) do the install at his shop in new jersey, right outside of nyc...i definitley recommend him to do any sort of work, especially for imports, euro and japanese.

www.xtrememotorwerks.com

he said the install was very simple and easy, fitment was perfect and that evosport made a quality product, but it's not as free flowing as he thought it would be, like the kleemann. overall, i really love the evos. the stock headers sucked, and i probably will get a set of racing catalytic converters for a few more ponies....not sure yet, as i want to trade my car in soon for a cls55, or put an order in for an m6?

he did the whole install in under 5 hrs, which included takin off the stock headers, puttin on the evo headers, taking the rest of the exhaust off, taking the resonators out, welding the straight pipes in, and installing the intake spacers

Sunny55

oh btw....for all u 1/4 mi guys....

the xtrememotorwerks race car, well, drag car runs 7.30s @ 191mph
pretty impressive with almost 1500 horsepower!

http://www.xtremeracecars.com/featurearticle.php

www.xtremeracecars.com

JamE55

Just read the article and that car is totally insane! T78

Marcus Frost

Great discussion here, and to no surprise, our boys from Kleeman are right on the money:

There will be gains with removing those headers pretty much no matter what because the factory design is just so **** poor. I would not be concerned with not seeing gains because you are picking up a number of things in addition to better flow, namely lower temperatures which is a big deal for these motors.

I want to follow up on the "less boost" point and clarify that while yes, having a pulley based boost control system that is pretty much fixed doesn't allow the car to make up for lost pressure when you open the exhaust system - however, that doesn't mean you are going to lose power either. Why is it a car that runs 19psi from the factory with one turbo makes 200+hp at the SAME boost with another turbo/blower? It's all about efficiency. Boost level is NOT the ultimate factor in power level. I also am planning to see how much extra power I can get out of this motor without changing boost.

Also, I would have to disagree with the statements being made about running lean - you will run LEANER, but you will not be running lean because of exactly what Cory pointed out - these cars are chugging down the fuel from the factory like no tomorrow for various reasons. In actuality, the Kleeman ECU will make you run even leaner because at that point you don't have the same restaints/concerns the factory does.

Bottom line is that headers should be one of the first mods you make to this motor because it is a great way to get into two real big problems with this car: heat and exhaust flow, both of which are big time robbers of hp. The Kleemann ECU really allows you to capitalize on this significant change and adapts the car perfectly to it, and without the ECU you are definitely selling yourself short of the potential getting rid of the factory manifolds, so it is highly recommended.

-m

rflow306

Excellent thread Marcus. All we have to remember is Boost = restriction. That is why changes to the exhaust, camshafts and cylinder heads affect boost. As you stated lower boost does not mean lower HP.