Bernanke

hey guys,

after doing alot of research on limited slips i came across this website that has been featured in alot of magazines and i started to read about it. Its very interesting when u look at the design... looks like some of the benz tuners stole the idea and are now charging 5-10 times that amount . The secret is out of the bag now . I am now talking with their representatives to convince them to produce them for the full AMG line of cars as well as other mercedes benz and compared to what the benz modders are selling their LSDs for the alot more....definitely looks like a good option to me for only $299-$349 . They come in two setups: Gold for street / light racing, and Green for harcore power (which may be more applicable to the AMG model line). I am in no way affiliated with the company, just an excited modder that may have struck gold and finally found a way to get some damn traction in a benz. I wanna get a set for my S-class and ultimately my E55 when I get it in may. anyways enjoy

http://www.phantomgrip.com/





Looks almost identical to the competition below (springs are even the same color, yellow)...

enzom

Interesting. Thanks. I happen to be one of those guys that believes "you get what you pay for", but I would love to find out if anyone has a view about these LSD's. Again, thanks for bringing it to our attention.

ClayJ

If you're going to go outside of the box, so to speak, you should seriously consider Racelogic Traction Control - different approach but works very well -still used by race teams worldwide and I have it on more than a few of my cars. You'll want to add the Launch Control Option if you want to use it primarily for dragging. Very simple to install, runs $500 to $1500 USD.

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_Control

E55_POWER

I was told by my tech when he installed my LSD that the Kleemann gears were the same gears as stock ones and he didn't understand why they were there.

If the square box is the thing giving you LSD, and it's on ly $300 I would try it. Worst case, Rear diff is only $1200

medici78

Phantom Grip has been around awhile. A lot of us are aware of them, but we know the Kleemann unit works 100% on this application. When messing with a car of this caliber, folks like to have the peace of mind that it has been proven and tested. Kleemann's reputation and testing eases our minds when debating between their proven part and experimenting with a part costing 1/5 as much. While the savings are there, the risks are much greater due to the value of the E55.
Thanks for the input, OmeyHomey, and let us know. I am sure that there are a bunch of AMG owners ready to spend the $300-500 for a unit that is proven to work in our vehicles.

GTA23109a

PhantomGrip has been around for a while and, while seemingly simplistic, has proven itself in some pretty high-HP cars. I contacted them a little over a year ago about one of their LSDs for my w210 E55 and at that time, they did not offer anything, nor were thay planning to. If we can get an application for our cars from them, it would definately be a big step in the right direction for ALL of us.

Bernanke

heres why... if you read all the installs and magazine articles on the website they simply grind down the stock ones so that there is no rib and the backs of the spider gears or flush. "this ensures both longevity and effectiveness of the LSD unit" etc etc. basically b/c the backs of the LSD unit are flat you want to make sure there is as much surface area on the back side of the gear so that it mounts flush with the LSD unit and disperces the load evenly across the entire backside of the unit. They are identical kits. you can easily just sand down the back of the gear like kleenman did on a belt sander to insure its super smooth and flat. Very simple (if you look on the magazine articles it explains it perfectly w/ pictures). The pictures of the gears in the article look identical to the "kleenman" shaved gears.

I really think this is the solution we all have been looking for. I am thinking about doing this conversion on my W140 S320 just to see if its legit as a "test" car. It will probably cost a bit but considering the knowledge we will all obtain it would be well worth it.

Bernanke

well to me it seems as if they are all identical. All the prices are either $299 for stage 1 or $349 for the stage 2. and all the units in all the magazine article PDFs look identical. So i dont see why it wouldn't. I think the only reason they dont put it on their website is they have not tried to test to make sure it will work so they don't want to say it will without knowing for sure with proper testing.

I feel if many of us owners sign a petition of some sort or at least all directly email them and flood with responces they will definitely take action, but an email or two won't do it. we need like 50-100 memebers so they know we are legit. Anyone want to take the initiative on this one?.... if not i suppose i could. lemme know guys

Bernanke

ya true, but i'd rather take a real LSD unit for $350 than something that is trying to mimic it through technology for $500-1500

Zeppelin

If I remember right Kleemann says that the spider gears that come with there LSD are hardened or stronger than the stock ones. Personally I would not install either of these "phantom grip: style LSD's. They make that popping noise while turning, there is not a smooth application of power when turning, and I doubt they will handle 500 plus lb-ft of torque(other than the Kleemann unit).

The Quaife unit will be available in Jan or Feb 2006 for $1795 - I'll go with that.

ClayJ

The F1 cars are using it right now -- works pretty darn well for them! Plus you can dial in 0-20% slip while sitting in the drivers seat.
I'd say that it is arguably a better solution than a mechanical limited-slip...but instead I'll just say that it is worth considering.....

Bernanke

that is not accurate at all. infact spring based LSD's are the smoothest of all operation, its 100% seemless. Clutch and mechanical LSD can pop and etc if you do not have the proper differential fluid in them (ones with slip additives otherwise it sounds like much of marbles in the diff and etc). Racing programs have been using these types for gears b/c of the benefits they use (look at all the racing teams that use their differentials). also they have stage 2 if you really think u need that extra limited slip action but honestly i think regular yellow spring setup will do the job.

hehe, u kinow its so funny watching fickle benz owners buy mods, they buy in to alot of the hype and crap tuners put out there to buy their products like kleenman and others. Benz modders are way too brand loyal for their own good.

Tell you what... If i were to be the test bed car for this phantom grip LSD would all of you fickle guys actually buy the thing and not spaz about brand names ? lol :p

GTA23109a

OmeyHomey: If you get any more info from PhantomGrip, please let me know. I have a Benz mechanic with the skills and the ***** to do an experimental install AND have a high % chance of success. I have no problem floating the $$$ for the parts and my mechanic can get a spare diff to either try it on or to replace mine if things go south. Please keep me in the loop on this via PM or e-mail.

Thanks!!

Bernanke

sounds like a plan. I'd especially like to find out b/c you have a E55 AMG and I am getting on in may so i would like to gets this technology up and running in benzes so ic an get mine right away when i get my benz. E320 diff might be a good donor b/c it is 3.27 gearing (which is awesome ratio for the E55s, 15.9% increase). I am waiting for their responce. I'll let u know what they send me.

GTA23109a

Thanks, I'll look forward to hearing from you!!

As far as the E320 diff. we've considered that and have access to plenty of them, but there's a strength concern as well as the tuning issue. We're looking into a couple solutions for the tuning, but not sure what, if anything, can be done about the strength issue.

Bernanke

well think about it logically... if the all the E-classes have the rear subframe, and the same differential casing, and the same 210mm ring & pinion gears then why should there be any difference in strength (assuming all those things are true).

vrus

I find this rather interesting as well...

Turns out the guy I deal with here who has been helping me with all the mods & tuning I have been doing is a dealer for Phantom Grip. I've passed this thread along to him and he has put an inquiry in to see what it would take to get them built for the E55..

Who wants to be the guinea pig?

GTA23109a

Allegedly the ring gear is thinner, partially due to the different tooth-count on it. Makes it easier to break teeth off the face of the gear, regardless of diameter. I've had this happen to me in other applications and it's not something I'm in a hurry to repeat.

If we can get some decently solid info from PhantomGrip I will absolutely test this out and report back.

Bernanke

i'm willing to test it out in my S-class as well.

Bernanke

Well, you have to be careful when it comes to "allegedly" and etc. Many times on the forums alot of BS gets put in with the truth, i call them "forum myths" so unless there is any substantial evidense to prove that we can't make assumtions. As far as the # of teeth, well every ratio has a different # of teeth on it, thats how the gearing changes is through the # of teeth while still maintaining the same diameter, so i dont think that is an indication of strength. I do think the thickness of the ring could potentially cause a weakness point but comparing this to other car applications is hard to do. To me i would not be suprised if all gears had the same thickness b/c its easier to manufacture rings all of the same dimentions and just different gears than it is to make a bunch of different kinds, so it would not suprise me of alot of the gears were completely 100% compatible for the swap.

again i could be wrong... but sometimes its important to think outside the box. anyways i will wait for their responce (if it ever comes). I hope your shop can convince them even more so to pursue the AMG models.

Bernanke

hey guys, here are some more pictures in other applications for comparison sake.








heres a picture of the one for the Mini Cooper which is a slightly different design...

eclou

Omeed, did you sell your M3? I need to take you for a spin in the 944 turbo sometime

Bernanke

Hey Eclou... yes infact i sold the M3 today. E55 is coming in may

Vadim @ evosport

Phantom Grip has been out for a number of years now. It has been more or less hit or miss depending on the differential.

It is very simple in function. It creates friction between spyder gears, thus "limiting" slip between each axle. Slippage still occurs and is function of spring pressure, material from which blocks are made and total surface area between blocks and spyder gears.

On some cars they seem to work OK and not cause any failures on others they burned up spyder gears. I have heard and seen about equal amount of evidence from both sides.

To make it work one would need to spend a considerable amount of time testing spings, pads dimension and material.

Kleemann appears to have accomplish this. So far no one had any failures.

Also by going this route they have covered 100% of MB in the last seven years. There are four different ring gear sizes used by MB that would require four different diffs if one wanted to have Quaife or other diff maker to cover the same market.

Bernanke

here another link to some more info...

http://www.teamswift.net/~madzuki/phantom.html

it mentions that the green spring is roughly 40% stiffer than the yellow springs.