e55 baller

I was talking to one of my local shops and they mentioned that they had recently ported a Jaguar XK? ...the blown 400 hp V8.... and that they got like 30 rwhp out of it.

they said something like this should be doable for our E55. Has anyone contemplated or looked into the feasibility of this? He also mentioned a mild head porting.

Curious about everyones thoughts as I know we are not dealing with a cheap engine here. He did also mention that for about $300-500 he could port the stock TB to 76mm for about 10-15 rwhp including removal/reinstall.

BMWEATR

unless you have a early 2003 engine the T.B I think cannot be ported because its one piece and cannot be taken apart.

vrus

I am looking into Head porting right now.. Trying to locate a set of heads that I can "play" with. From what I have been hearing from different people our cars will benefit quite a bit from porting the exhaust side of the heads.

As for TB porting, BMWEATR is correct.. Vadim & I discovered this problem when I went to get a new stock E55 TB ported. He ordered one for me and when the engine shop went to take it apart they noticed it was epoxied on instead of bolted...

From 2003 to some point in 2004 they had the 2 piece bolt-together design.. Sometime in 2004 they switched over to the 1 piece epoxied design.

Because of this I am going with an 80mm design.. Most likely will get the Kleemann unit unless I can get my hands on a 2007 TB which is larger from the factory.

e55 baller

Interesting, I did not know that about the TB, fortuantely I should be ok. I bought my car April, 30 2003. It was the first in the Northern, VA area.

Victor -- glad to see you are researching the exhaust side porting, what would a spare set of heads run?

What about porting the lysom SC? Anything there or is that a dead end. We gotta look at everything to get you to 700 hp!

JamE55

Vic you have PM.

vrus

Yeah.. A good set of heads will go a long way in improving horsepower and getting me to that 700hp level.. As for the supercharger porting... I am not sure on that one. Anyone know what size our lysholms are?

I had the opportunity to buy a complete E55K motor with 20,000miles on the clock but it was $20,000 USD.. Granted it is half price form new, but, I didnt want to drop that much coin just to play with the heads & supercharger. I am waiting for a quote back on a brand new set of heads from the factory. I'll post up once I hear something.

tama_mog

porting the exhaust side definitely sounds like a good idea...but the gains probably won't be on the levels you guys are thinking. On my evo I have a full port and polish on both intake/exhaust/upgraded ferrea/tomei valetrain and it makes slightly (neglible) more power than the car did without the headwork (tested with a gt35r). That's not to say it doesn't help response and top end power. Main problem is you have to figure out the limits of the supercharger and see how much air you can push in with the limited revvin capabilities of this motor (this thing redlines before 7k where my evo revs to 9200 all day long). And I agree with just porting the exhaust side so you don't sacrafice response from more lab by a bigger intake side.

Vadim @ FD

Yes, to both.

Kompressor discharge will benefit from porting. Stock discharge area is tuned for max TQ not HP, once opened up I would not be suprised if 30+ HP can be uncovered.

I did it on my c32, but have not had a chance to test it yet.

On the cylinder head side there are definitely improvements to be had. Stock exhaust port barely flows in 140s. A good port job should get it into 170-190 range.

I have been selling MBs, not moding them in the past several months, once I get sales under my belt, I will go back to getting 700HP out of 55s.

Jspeed

So if the TB 2004 onwards is 1 piece epoxied, can the Kleemann unit still be used on those cars?

GTA23109a

Potomac German Auto had one for sale for $16k USD shipped. They might be able to source heads or a blower for you as well.

Has anyone looked into or considered approaching someone like Whipple or Kenne Bell about a larger displacement supercharger that would "bolt on" in place of the current one??

vrus

Hey... They only work you from 9am to 6pm.. You still have a good 6hrs in the evening you can put into R&D.. LOL...

Hurry up and get back to the important stuff!!

It is irrelevant if you are talking about the V12TT TB.. Kleemann supplies an entirely new TB (80mm) w/adapter plate, gaskets, and electronics. Your old TB will be removed and replaced with a new one.

$16K is still too much to invest just to mess around with heads... Now, if I was going to do something a little more risky like trying to run a 200hp shot of NOS and wanted a backup engine just in case then I would buy it in a heartbeat..

I really only want the heads and possibly the supercharger.. The guy who has the motor wont piece it out for me so I passed on it.

As for swapping the supercharger, that is just not cost effective. The lysholm is a very efficient supercharger. Swapping out to a whipple doesnt make sense because it is less efficient than ours. The Kenne Belle twin screw is more efficient, but having to fabricate new intake system, intercooler system, etc, etc would be very costly and I dont think it would generate that much more power... My $0.02 anyways..

GTA23109a

Efficiency is only part of the equation. A larger displacement supercharger, even at LOWER efficiency than the stock one could make far more HP just on the basis of moving more air per revolution. If you're serious about making a lot of HP I wouldn't rule it out. On that same note, removing the positive-displacement blower all together in favor of a centrifugal supercharger might be worth investigating. There would be some loss of low-end torque, but the gains at mid and upper rpm should far outweigh it.

None of this is "new" thinking . . . guys have been doing all this stuff far longer than our cars have even been around. It's going to take some fabrication, but if you want the names of a couple more-than-qualified people, I'd be glad to pass some contact info along.

PCH

Have you considered a less evasive and cheaper route. Hennessey pulley w/smaller water pump pulley, Kleemann headers and ECU, Kleemann performance crankshafts, Kleemann large throttle body.

GTA23109a

Yes, most of us already have that type of stuff, and more . . .

sticky2

Have wondered this as well. I think the aftermarket companies think there is not much of a market for this in the MB segment. Aftermarket blowers make huge gains for 03 cobras far more than the modded stock blower ever could. I do not see why it would be any different for the e55. Maybe someone needs to give kenne bell or whipple a phone call?

I also remember hearing that the lyshom unit isn't exactly that efficient and kleemann's own blowers are far more efficient as far as making power per displacement.

E55 RUSS

MKB got 680 HP oout of 55K motor on E55 and 730 HP out of SLR

sticky2

From the bit of research I have done on this site it seems that the next place to get power is going to be in the heads or with porting the supercharger. I don't know how much power could be generated if any by porting the supercharger.

I researched gains that the cobra guys make ( I know this isn't apples to apples but just for reference ) and they can get up to 40 wheel by porting the blower. I don't know how this would apply to the MB world but there might be some power in there.

The problem when looking at e55 dyno's is that the torque curve drops off very quickly towards redline. There has to be power in the heads, if that torque curve could be flattened I think 50+ wheel could be picked up. Question is, who is going to work on the heads? If chevy guys can pick up huge gains with heads and a cam I don't see why MB guys can't.

GTA23109a

Where are you located?? I know of at least 3 people/places in SoCal that are extremely experienced with cylinder head porting. Even though the head my not be off a Chevy or Ford, the principles of airflow and physics are still the same. If someone can scrounge up a used/spare set of heads, I can definately point them in the right direction to get them worked on.

Grumpy666

I'm seeing a lot of ideas being kicked around here, but I'm not seeing much thought about the implications of these ideas.

1) Port the supercharger - Yes, this can provide increased air flow and more power - but that assumes that the SC is the flow limiter in the system. If your heads can't support more flow (like a restricive exhaust port), all you've really done by porting the SC is spent a lot of money to make a bigger hole.

2) Put on a bigger blower - Yes, a bigger blower spinning slower is usually a better way to go - you get the same airflow as a smaller blower spinning faster at a lower boost level, which results in a cooler intake charge, and hence, more power. But there are two problems with this: 1) this is an expensive way to just get a cooler charge - a more efficient IC would be a better way to go. Plus, you can't really take advantage of any increased air flow (see Port the SC above). 2) Producing more air flow per revolution will require bigger screws, which will require a bigger casing. The intake system on the 55K engine is designed around this specific SC, including the IC, intake manifolds, pulley clutch, etc. It won't work w/o major modifications. Way more expensive.

3) Porting the heads - This idea probably has the most potential to increase airflow - certainly it has to be done before considering porting the SC. And yes, air flow principles are well understood. But don't think you can take these heads to someone who ports Chevys or Fords and expect them to get similar airflow numbers first time out. Domestic heads are well-known entities and most good shops have CNC equipment already set up to do the work. How many domestic shops (if any) know where the thin sections are in the head castings? One small slip of the grinder and you can generate some expensive boat anchors.

4) Install a centrifugal SC - ...and put it where? And who's going to re-write the ECU programming to interface to it - and remove the exisitng SC code? Major major major!

But hey, as long as we're blue skying, I think someone should research installing a Squires rear-mounted turbo. Now, THAT would be kick-***.

BTW - Whipple, Kenne Bell, and the MB 55K SC are all Lysholm units. Any comments about efficiency, etc about one applies to all. And, due to their compressive nature, they are THE most efficient SC available. Modified Roots blowers with the twisted rotors and front-to-rear airflow path are a close second.

vrus

I personally would only look at this option once I have exhausted everything else.

I wouldn't even bother with this as the costs would be way too high to justify it.

This is the main area that I am concentrating on. I've learned that there is alot of potential by enlarging the exhaust housing and this is where I will concentrate my efforts to begin with.

No offense to whomever made the original comment, but, this one made me chuckle a bit... Tearing out a perfectly good lysholm to replace with a centrifugal and having to re-fabricate the top half of the engine is a silly idea (IMHO). If you are going to go to this extent, you might as well jump over the supercharger idea altogether and dig right in with twin turbos..

Don't laugh.. This thought actually crossed my evil mind.. Right after STS released their twin turbo kit for the C5 corvette and it put down 520rwhp I started looking into it.. 2 turbos at the back coupled with an 11psi blower up front should make for a fun ride!!!!!!

As a whole they are all designed as twin-screw superchargers, BUT, the whipple has no intercooler. The Kenne Bell has both intercooled and non-intercooled versions.

sticky2

I'm in Socal

Grumpy666

My comment was in reference to some mis-statements wrt functional aspects of the screw-based SC. Since ICs have no bearing on how a supercharger functions, I don't consider them to be an integral part of one. They are merely an accessory that improves upon their performance.

BTW - Whipple does offer ICs made by Fluidyne. Here's a link to their Cobra kit. A kit for the 8.1 liter GM is also on the way.

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/...sp?ProdID=1218

GTA23109a

I made that comment, but I certainly can't take credit for the idea. It's been done with great success by many others long before me. Both centrifugal superchargers and turbos have far greater effeciency than a PD blower. Take a couple hints from the Cobra Mustang guys . . . the swap is frighteningly simple and very effective.

West Coast Cylinder Heads and Vrbanic Brothers are 2 good starting points for super high quality custom work. Both have done work for me (and fellow racers) before on various projects and I've yet to hear a complaint (besides cost perhaps)

Grumpy666

This statement is only accurate for the older-style Roots blowers. As I mentioned above, the newer Roots blowers with twisted rotors and front-to-rear air flow have a higher adiabatic efficiency than either hair dryer. The Lysholm screw compressor, which is also a positive displacement blower, has the highest efficiency of all. Here are links for further reading:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/49378/

http://www.coloradocobras.com/whippl...rger-heat.html


Perhaps you'd be willing to give this forum an outline of the simple steps required to install one on an E55, including where the compressor will be mounted?

GTA23109a

Not to be a jerk, but did you actually read any of those articles?? The only way a Whipple or any other screw-type blower is going to approach the efficiency or a turbo or centrifugal blower at the power levels being sought here with our displacement is if the blower is half the size of the damn motor!! Maybe some folks like that kind of stuff, but I'm not in a big hurry to cut a hole in my hood just to stick with a PD.


Since you asked so politely, I'd be happy to share my thoughts on this.

1) The head unit:

Since the external architecture of these motors remains very similar to that of years and models past, mounting a belt-driven supercharger on the passenger side of the motor off the front of the cylinder head should be doable. If that location were to prove impossible, a low-mount (similar to what was done on the "old" LT1 camaros and firebirds by Vortec) would be the next best alternative.

2) The intake manifold:

If one was so inclined, the stock IC could be retained, but why?? Everything I've read on them seems to point to them as a weak-link or limiting factor. Depending on what type of IC you would LIKE to have, the maifold design may vary. If someone wanted to use an air-to-air style IC mounted either in front of or below the radiator, then the new intake manifold could consist of a simple sheetmetal "ram" or "box" style intake, similar to those used by the cobra guys as well as more serious race cars utilizing forced induction. It would basically just be a box with a throttle body on one end and flanged to mate directly to the cylinder heads on the other end. (that part's the simplest. Anyone who can TIG weld and has access to a set of Mercedes Benz gaskets and the original manifold *should* be able to create one of these. Now, if a person wanted to retain a liquid-to-air IC and keep it in the near-stock location, the fabrication gets slightly more complex. While the "box" principle would remain nearly the same (at least the lower portion) the upper would most likely need to be offset to one side or the other to incorporate the IC core. (various sizes are available from a variety of manufacturers including turbonetics, spearco and Precision Turbo). The IC core itself would probably have to lay over one valve cover or the other with the TB on the outer side (side dependant on head unit location and plumbing ease.) As far as compatibility with stock ECU and sensors, sensor ports are fairly easy to replicate and with a custom manifold you can place them wherever you like. Same goes for fuel injectors. In many instances, there are even gains to be had from relocating some of these items. Coolant, if we even have a wet manifold, can be bypassed directly from one cylinder head to the other. MBZ's schematics should provide all the clues necessary to make the proper connections.

If anyone is *actually* interested in pursuing this, I'd be happy to discuss it further in PMs or another topic and even point them in the direction of some fabricators who are capable of developing these parts on a one-off basis.