Twin Turbo Charge our 55's?
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none
So, I got a question for you turbofanatics...
Why not just lighten up the piggy automobile? A simple DTM-styling would do the trick-- take out the back seats, install a nice roll cage similar to the CLK DTM, replace the front seats with lighter ones from Sparco or some respected tuner, take off all unneccessary parts-- stereo, navi, spare tire etc-- carbon fiber the body, get some carbon fiber parts replaced on the engine where ever possible, get some light-weight HREs and bada bing bada boom Bobs your uncle...
Because a 500HP E55 weighing like 2300 ish lbs would run better numbers than say a 6-700HP E55 weighing 4100...
Why not just lighten up the piggy automobile? A simple DTM-styling would do the trick-- take out the back seats, install a nice roll cage similar to the CLK DTM, replace the front seats with lighter ones from Sparco or some respected tuner, take off all unneccessary parts-- stereo, navi, spare tire etc-- carbon fiber the body, get some carbon fiber parts replaced on the engine where ever possible, get some light-weight HREs and bada bing bada boom Bobs your uncle...
Because a 500HP E55 weighing like 2300 ish lbs would run better numbers than say a 6-700HP E55 weighing 4100...
Banned
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,797
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Everything you say is TRUE.. But... The whole point is that I want my car to look and feel like an MB... Everything I do to this car, I want dual personalities.. Calm and Civilized on the one hand, and then, drop the hammer and all hell breaks loose...
I want to keep the 4,100lb comfy sedan as a daily driver but pack enough punch so that the weight doesnt matter. See where I am coming from now?
I want to keep the 4,100lb comfy sedan as a daily driver but pack enough punch so that the weight doesnt matter. See where I am coming from now?
So, I got a question for you turbofanatics...
Why not just lighten up the piggy automobile? A simple DTM-styling would do the trick-- take out the back seats, install a nice roll cage similar to the CLK DTM, replace the front seats with lighter ones from Sparco or some respected tuner, take off all unneccessary parts-- stereo, navi, spare tire etc-- carbon fiber the body, get some carbon fiber parts replaced on the engine where ever possible, get some light-weight HREs and bada bing bada boom Bobs your uncle...
Because a 500HP E55 weighing like 2300 ish lbs would run better numbers than say a 6-700HP E55 weighing 4100...
Why not just lighten up the piggy automobile? A simple DTM-styling would do the trick-- take out the back seats, install a nice roll cage similar to the CLK DTM, replace the front seats with lighter ones from Sparco or some respected tuner, take off all unneccessary parts-- stereo, navi, spare tire etc-- carbon fiber the body, get some carbon fiber parts replaced on the engine where ever possible, get some light-weight HREs and bada bing bada boom Bobs your uncle...
Because a 500HP E55 weighing like 2300 ish lbs would run better numbers than say a 6-700HP E55 weighing 4100...
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 547
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none
Everything you say is TRUE.. But... The whole point is that I want my car to look and feel like an MB... Everything I do to this car, I want dual personalities.. Calm and Civilized on the one hand, and then, drop the hammer and all hell breaks loose...
I want to keep the 4,100lb comfy sedan as a daily driver but pack enough punch so that the weight doesnt matter. See where I am coming from now?
I want to keep the 4,100lb comfy sedan as a daily driver but pack enough punch so that the weight doesnt matter. See where I am coming from now?
Guess that's what made the E55 so popular-- it's dual personalities. Hope you guys succeed... but I still think your a tad bit crazy.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: El Paso, TX
'03 G500, '13 G63, '17 GLS63,
So what can be done about tuning? I believe matching the turbos and the fabrication to be the easy part.
I guess my concern stems from the issues with reflashes,etc.
I guess my concern stems from the issues with reflashes,etc.
Last edited by medici78; Sep 28, 2006 at 01:16 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Chicago
CL65
Victor, you of all people should know that ANYTHING is possible. Our limiting factor is the capabilities of the ECU. I already had my exhaust off and took measurements. I can fit turbos right where the cats are on the CL55. I'd imagine that the E55 isn't a whole lot different. There is a straight shot for the charge pipe to the throttle body. Sizing the turbos properly shouldn't be a problem, we need a fairly large exhaust wheel as our supercharged engine has characteristics very similar to that of a large displacement NA motor. IAT's shouldn't go up much as the turbos would barely be working to add @ 100 to 125 horsepower each. This would blow right through that restriction we talked about yesterday.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,797
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
The tuning end will be/is covered.. I have sourced and allocated the equipment to be purchased.. I am just looking at a couple of other options before I plunk down the dough to purchase it. Basically, I'll have the equipment in my hands so once the ECU maps are created anyone that had a kit would have access to them. We would put the initial program in and then do the fine tuning on the dyno in the end user's home city so that each car is tuned for the environment it will run in.
heheh.. Yeah.. I know ANYTHING is possible.. I was talking more about whether it was feasible to do it.. I wasnt sure how compounding the boost works.. If I have an S/C spinning and creating 12psi of manifold pressure and then I have 2 turbos spinning and pressurizing to the tune of 8psi, does that mean I stuff 20psi of pressure into the block? Is it additive that way ? If not, what is the effect on the motor from a manifold pressure point of view.
I havent had a chance to step away and call you yet, so I may have to do it near the end of the day (6:30 ish...).
I havent had a chance to step away and call you yet, so I may have to do it near the end of the day (6:30 ish...).
Originally Posted by MarkoCL55
Victor, you of all people should know that ANYTHING is possible. Our limiting factor is the capabilities of the ECU. I already had my exhaust off and took measurements. I can fit turbos right where the cats are on the CL55. I'd imagine that the E55 isn't a whole lot different. There is a straight shot for the charge pipe to the throttle body. Sizing the turbos properly shouldn't be a problem, we need a fairly large exhaust wheel as our supercharged engine has characteristics very similar to that of a large displacement NA motor. IAT's shouldn't go up much as the turbos would barely be working to add @ 100 to 125 horsepower each. This would blow right through that restriction we talked about yesterday.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Chicago
CL65
Actually due to the lack of an aftermarket intake manifold, it's actually less hassle to add to the existing set-up without cracking into the motor. Likewise it's easier to take the stuff off and retain your warranty.
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I agree marko but Having a Intake made should not cost that much. You could spend that much having to fab something go around the SC. Intakes are not that complicated
Now you as a fellow supra dude should know that!!!
Now you as a fellow supra dude should know that!!!
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Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Silicon Valley, CA
'93 RX-7, SLK55
Hmmm, more power for the S7 SLK55. 
I'm going to need some fender flares for more rubber. I should yank the Power FC (stand alone ECU) from my RX7 TT & stick it in the TT SLK55.
Seriously, I must watch this progress. It would be nice to keep the blown 55 & add TTs but,..... I'm in for just TTs if they yield 600 rwhp+. That would produce more power than my Kleemann set up. I run 100 octane anyway - time to get more bang from my race gas.
-Matt
I'm going to need some fender flares for more rubber. I should yank the Power FC (stand alone ECU) from my RX7 TT & stick it in the TT SLK55.
Seriously, I must watch this progress. It would be nice to keep the blown 55 & add TTs but,..... I'm in for just TTs if they yield 600 rwhp+. That would produce more power than my Kleemann set up. I run 100 octane anyway - time to get more bang from my race gas. -Matt
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300ce
Hi Ted-
ECU is the comlicated part, as well as making that HUGE engine fit under the hood. Length is not the problem- width is, but I'm sure it can be made to fit. A W210 would be horribly difficult, a W211 a bit easier. The V12TT engine's use Bosch ME2.7.1, where most other cars use either ME2.8 or 2.8.1. I'm not sure about getting the ECU to work properly, but I can guarantee it won't be easy. These are semi-stand alone ECU's so you MIGHT be able to just buy the engine, harness and ECU from the same car, and plug everything in. The central gateway becomes the problem as far as coding changes. I've never really investigated the possibilities, so I have no idea if this will work. Brabus puts the V12TT in W211 chassis', so it IS possible. The W210 is a whole different ball game, and because it doesn't have a central gateway, it would be a very difficult task. $24K for a 600 engine is a steal.
ECU is the comlicated part, as well as making that HUGE engine fit under the hood. Length is not the problem- width is, but I'm sure it can be made to fit. A W210 would be horribly difficult, a W211 a bit easier. The V12TT engine's use Bosch ME2.7.1, where most other cars use either ME2.8 or 2.8.1. I'm not sure about getting the ECU to work properly, but I can guarantee it won't be easy. These are semi-stand alone ECU's so you MIGHT be able to just buy the engine, harness and ECU from the same car, and plug everything in. The central gateway becomes the problem as far as coding changes. I've never really investigated the possibilities, so I have no idea if this will work. Brabus puts the V12TT in W211 chassis', so it IS possible. The W210 is a whole different ball game, and because it doesn't have a central gateway, it would be a very difficult task. $24K for a 600 engine is a steal.
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; Sep 28, 2006 at 07:59 PM.
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From: So.Ca.
E55
http://www.lingenfelter.com/C620054271038hp320.mpg
This is what an E55 should do on the dyno if a person was to go through all of the trouble...LOL
This is what an E55 should do on the dyno if a person was to go through all of the trouble...LOL
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Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Jacksonville, FL
CLS55, BMW 540, SUPRA
The lag you guys are talking about is way overrated. I have a single supra with a 74mm ITS turbo and I have 18lbs of boost by 4300rpm. Now this is with 272 cams which makes it laggier than if it was stock cams. Also we are talking about a 3L engine. The supra guys going to a 3.4L stroker engine shave about 300-500rpm on their lag with the same turbo setup. So I can't imagine how our engine with its size and a pair of GT30R's would have any lag problems. I would drop $15k in a heartbeat. I live in Jacksonville and my car is serviced by Stage6 same guys that did the Ford GT TT and they charge $30K for the TT setup for the GT. There is no way they will do it for half for our cars.
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From: Diamond Bar & Anaheim, CA
2003 C-Class Sportcoupe
Do you guys remember Mohamad Bin Suleyman's C32? He installed twin turbos with the supercharger. I can't find pics of it anymore. Info on his install would really help others in adding twin turbos to the kompressor cars.
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SL65 AMG
If the lag is the same as the 600 or 65 then its not that bad. If this kit gets up and running im in as well. Good luck guys!!!! Would this kit work the same on the clk 55 since its the 5.4 amg but no blower??
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From: Colorado
..........Thanks. No I don't plan on using my W210. It is not a $matic and I have it just the way I want it. But I learned from you input that a good platform to use is a W211 E500 4matic. These things can be had for under $40K and they have the bullet proof 5speed tranny and the central gateway you spoke off. I will do this tomorrow if I can be certain that the ECU will work. I don't want to buy the car, the engine and the Ecu and be stock with them. $24K for a V12TT engine is not really a suprise since a 2003S600 can be had for under $45K. So, nowadays doing a V12TT engine swap is no longer cost prohibitive but is knowledge prohibitive.
Ted
Ted
Here is where the problem lies- you'll have to ditch the 4-Matic aspect. The front differential on the 4-Matic cars is bolted to the oil pan, and the drive shaft actually passes through the engine oil pan. MB never made a V12 4-Matic car, so you'd need to fabricate a new oil pan to make this work (I've never been inside a V12, and there may not be enough room in the pan to even do this), and even then, there probably won't be enough room for everything without some significant changes to the cars frame and front subframe. Then comes the problem of how much power the transfer case and front diff can handle- I can guarantee you neither of those components would last very long, if at all. The front Diff. in those cars is small, and althogh it can take the power of a KLEEMANN kompressor (450-500 or so lb/ft. of torque), it won't be able to handle the torqe of the V12 TT engine, especially when tuned to 700+ lb/ft. of torque. You'll be snapping gear teeth, breaking chains in the transfer case, etc. It would certainly be an entertaining project, but will the cost really be worth it? I don't know- that's for you to decide...
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haters crazy
. I'm happy with my kleemann for now, just want to squeeze out a little more hp to get me into the 11's and i'll be satisfied.
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From: Colorado
The clk55 has a compression ratio of 10.5:1 It is not the same engine as the 211 E55. It was not built for boost but you can try it and then let me know . I'm happy with my kleemann for now, just want to squeeze out a little more hp to get me into the 11's and i'll be satisfied.
. I'm happy with my kleemann for now, just want to squeeze out a little more hp to get me into the 11's and i'll be satisfied.
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Before you guys get too seduced by the thought of twin turbos, you still need to answer a question: How much power will the exhaust ports in the heads support? It doesn't matter how many turbos you bolt on, or how big they are, once the intake valves close, if the exhaust ports can't flow the air, all you're doing is building boost.
Don't be misled by the GT engine. It has the same size and the same number of valves per cylinder, but that's where the similarity ends. Don't assume that the MB 5.4 liter engine can match the Ford's performance with TT added.
I've seen one data point that says the heads are good for about 700 HP in their stock configuration. Derek ran 131 mph in the 1/4-mile, which suggests he was putting out somewhere in the 725-750 HP range on the bottle.
Someone needs to flow the heads to see where the limit is. A good port job and more exhaust duration on the cam can add another 50-100 HP potential. This is what's going to decide if twin turbos would be a worthwhile upgrade. If the flow's not there, then there's another power option that can be pursued that would be a lot less work and far cheaper.
Don't be misled by the GT engine. It has the same size and the same number of valves per cylinder, but that's where the similarity ends. Don't assume that the MB 5.4 liter engine can match the Ford's performance with TT added.
I've seen one data point that says the heads are good for about 700 HP in their stock configuration. Derek ran 131 mph in the 1/4-mile, which suggests he was putting out somewhere in the 725-750 HP range on the bottle.
Someone needs to flow the heads to see where the limit is. A good port job and more exhaust duration on the cam can add another 50-100 HP potential. This is what's going to decide if twin turbos would be a worthwhile upgrade. If the flow's not there, then there's another power option that can be pursued that would be a lot less work and far cheaper.
