Ted Baldwin

.......thanks for the reply. You are correct. I just checked with the tuner and the fluid indeed goes from the johnson pump to the bosch pump then to the auxillary water bump then to the s/c. I was told that the johnson pump provides fluid at a higher pressure head to the johnson pump. Based on your reply I can see how this makes more sense. But it would appear then that bosch pump is unnnessary, but probably not harmful since it lies distal to the johnson pump in the series. The auxillary pump I am told is part of the oem engine.

...........I wasd told not to use the regular green ethylene gylcol antifreeze. That I should use ionly the mercedes benz brand antifreeze. that the green ethylene glycol antifreeze destroys water pumps. I was tempted to say that this is non sense, but I rembered that we are all having problems with our pumps so I wondered if there was any truth to this.

Ted

Vadim @ FD

Ted, now I am tottaly confused. Do you have three pumps?

There is no reason not use just one pump. Since Johnson flows the most, it makes sense to use it. Now to use it, one must make 1.5'' to 3/4'' adapters, since Johnson has bigger outlet and inlet.

Take some pixs, let see if I can make sense of this setup.

As far as fluid. You can use anything you want. The impeller scroll has no connection to the motor that drives the impeller.

Maybe they did not disconnect cooling system from IC cooling system?

Ted Baldwin

.............Sorry for the confusion. I have two pumps dealing with the s/c. In addition to that, I am told that every mercedes engine also has a water pump. I'll take pictures.

Ted

Yacht Master

Ted,
If you can post a pic of your pumps, I am interested in this Johnson pump and what it looks like installed. I plan to use a dual mount jabsco, among some other changes to convert intercooler/aftercooler to a stand alone system. Strong concentrations of antifreeze will take a toll on some plastics. One last question what is the Renn Tec price for an upgraded pump?
Do I remember $3500.00

This is the pump I plan on using, they work quite well in our marine applications (sand and salt water) and we routinely get 4 years of 24/7 service life out of them
Model Name: 12Vdc Circulation Mag pump
Specifications: View list below
Description:
Circulating pump for galley, hot water systems, heating systems, windshield washing and applications where re-circulation is required. Auto uses include for circulation of intercooler coolant. Direct replacement for Johnson CO10P5-2 and CM10P7-1 pumps. 3 amp fuse.
Bolt-in replacement for the stock intercooler water pump for the Syclone/Typhoon. Magnetic drive [water can't get near motor - motor won't burn-up if something gets stuck]
Long life "Brush-less" DC motor
Sealless magnetic drive pump
12 volt DC
12.5 liters/min at 0.12 Bar
Non-Corroding meterials
Pumps water at 100°C
Handels agressive liquids
Ignition protected
The big problem with the original pump is that the shaft of the impeller wheel can leak, then water can get down into the motor. On the original pump, the pump wheel is on the end of the motor shaft, and can't be removed without some trouble. The best part is that the new pump is now a "magnetic drive" pump. Water cannot get at the motor any more. That gray ring on the end of the pump is a big magnet that is attached to the motor shaft. As the motor spins, that magnet spins. The photo shows the back of the pump chamber. It slips right in that magnet. The magnet spins the pump wheel.

The wires come out in different places, but it's the same basic size. It will fit in the stock mounting location perfectly. It does flow a lot more than the stock unit.

Mercedes Benz as an auxilary water pump to pump hot water for the heater. Also PORSCHE 944 TURBO used auxilary water pump. A typical RV water pump is designed to handle water only to about 130° F

Bosch part number is 0 130 002 066. The Mercedes part number on the end is 001 835 1064. The pump also has a SWF part number on it: WPR 403.674.

Model Number: 59510-0012
Manufacturer: Jabsco Pumps
Series: 59500 DC Mag Drive Circulator 4gpm
Accessories: Click to see suggested accessories for this product
Price: $168.00


Specifications of: 12Vdc Circulation Mag pump
Maximum Flow: 4 gpm
TDH Minimum: 4 feet / 1.73 psi
TDH Maximum: 6.50 feet / 2.81 psi
Inlet Connection Type: Barb
Inlet: 0.75 inches
Outlet Connection Type: Barb
Outlet: 0.75 inches
Wetted Materials: PolyPro
Elastomers: Viton
Voltage: 12DC
Motor: TENV
Motor AMPS: 1.2
Speed: 1725 RPM
Max. Operating Temp.: 212 °F
Max. SG: 1.20
Viscosity: 1.00 cp 31.00 ssu
Max. Particle Hardness 5.00
Length: 5.80 inches
pH Low: 3.00
pH High: 10.00
Applications: Flooded Suction, Coolant, Cooling, Marine
Other: Current draw 2 Amp. The "Gen-set" unit was installed in the truck in 1984. the brand is ALLTEC 4000 watt, with an 8HP watercooled KUBOTA diesel engine.
Usual Ship Time: 2-3 days
Weight: 3.00
Warranty: 1 years

http://www.pumpbiz.com/products/inde...&series_id=389


I know of many more 12V pumps but the next one in my book is over $450. and has the same duty cycle and life as the jabsco.

Jrocket

Very confusing thread.

Ted Baldwin

...........I'll try to clear things up. I just took pictures but the pumps are deep in the engine bay and you cannot trace the lines on the picture. In person I basically have two pumps in series, not in parallel. One pump pumps to the other pump and the second pump pumps to the car, just like christmas three lights. From college physics a long time ago, it looks like the resistance in this type of system is doubled. So I do not think I need the second pump. From the tuners point of view, he said he did it this way to provide a higher pressure head for the coolant going into the second pump, and that the presence of the second pump is not detrimental since even if one pump fails it just serves as a pass through. I hope this helps.

...........Forget what I said about an auxillary pump since it is causing the confusion. Cars that do not have superchargers have water pumps as well. Our cars do have water pumps totally separate from the s/c pump. This is the auxillary pump I was talking about. I don't think I fully understand where this auxillary pump ties into everything else.

Ted

Jrocket

Ted,

I am in now way trying to be rude here but Im sitting here scratching my head wondering how you have all this high hp stuff and did not know that cars have water pumps that circulate coolant for the engine block etc?

Sorry if that came off as rude.Maybe I read it wrong or ?

In my opinion,the stock pump is only hindering the performance of the Jonhson pump.If you added twice the volume of water and isolated it from the engines cooling system,then I might run 2 Johnson pumps in series.Isolation from the engines cooling system is a must,same as the Johnson pump is a must.If the volume is doubled then maybe 2 Johnsons might be needed.

Vadim @ FD

Ted, gotcha.

Only problem with two pump in series, is if the second pump fails with locked up motor, there will be very little flow through it. And it can also cause the primary pump to fail, as it pumps into a dead head.

Anyway, is the G faster now?

Yacht Master

Jrocket,

That stock pump has been around 20 years that I know of, and was used to supplement the coolant flow to the heater core, it had an easy life then. You are 100% correct in that any additional capacity in volume of coolant and / or size of radiator will require at least an upgraded pump if not dual pumps. I don't have much information on the Johnson pump other than to say it is not an off the shelf part in Ft Lauderdale. I wish I could find out more about it, other Johnson pumps that i have found here have made in Sweden stamped in them. So at this point I 'll be capping off the engine coolant side and using the Jabsco X2 with a full size single pass radiator toped off by a MB expansion tank. Btw I will be plumbing my pumps on either side of the radiator/intercooler, and wired parallel, the coolant level sensor will be tapped in to the engine expansion tank. Other mods when front bumper comes off and is refinished, new bi Xenon W/ projector high beams, real horns, HID fogs.

rflow306

You can get the Pump locally from Depco Pump Company( They usually have it in stock). With this pump, one is more than enough.
1800-446-1656
Shipping Address:
2145 Calumet St
Clearwater FL 33765

The model number for the pump is C090 P5-1 12v and the part number is 10-24190-1. Johnson now also makes an upgrade the CM90.

Ted Baldwin

............I said that I do not fully understand how the engine water pump ties into the s/c pumps. That I don't think my coolant circuits are separated. My quote is below. I am probably being too elementary in the way I am asking the questions but the answers I am getting are working for me. I need to be very elementary because my new set up differs significantly from the basic understanding I have had about our cars. Right now my engine bay is mass of tubes going everywhere. Before you discard that, the car now supposedly dynoed at 570HP and 600torque to the wheels, yes in a 4whell drive with probably 30% drive train loss. Now you see my dilema. Thanks for the friendly jive. A lot of what I am asking I don't know the answers, but some I do.

............I sent my car away to Maryland and just got it back 2 days ago I'm trying to figure out what they did. The current set up is new to me. From the answers I have received, It looks like I do not need the two pumps if my coolant circuits are not separated. The tuner sent me a dyno showing 569HP and 600torque at the 4wheels. My car had 491HP to the wheels before the 2 pumps. So whatever he did is doing something and I am trying to figure it out and because of the positive dyno numbers I'm reluctant to change anything.........that is if the tuner's dyno numbers are indeed correct.

...........Vadim, the tuner claimed that the car did 12.2 on the motor and 11.6 with nitrous when he tested it with a G-tech. Whatever this means has not been replicated by me yet. I have a check engine light code p202B-002 that says idle speed control implausible. Short circuit to the ground or open circuit. I need to sort this out before I go full blast with the car. Can high performance spark plug wires do this? Thanks.

Ted

Ted Baldwin

.............Thanks. That did help. I wonder if his coolant circuits are separated. I'll pm him.

Ted

Ted Baldwin

........This was my understanding, but differs from what was done to my car, hence my confusion. Can the stock intercooler withing the s/c be upgraded? I ask because this is what I was told was done to my car. I just got my car back after 2 months and I am dizzy tracing the lines.

Ted

Ted Baldwin

..........I found the answer to the p202 code. Great forum! Another member Williws posted the following on 1/19/2006:

Ted

stevebez

Two pumps in series will increase pressure but flow capacity will not be much better than the max of the biggest pump on its own.... so in my view not much of a benefit. Two pumps in parallel is better and will flow more but with less pressure than series .... pressure will at best be the max of the larger pump.

One larger pump on its own still seems to be the best result to me.

Anyone thought of running a mechanical pump off the auxiliary belt of the motor ... this way you can have an engine speed sensitive pump that will run continuously when engine is running and not have the hassle of the electric motor running - and failing.

Just not sure where to fit and what flow and pressure these pumps run at -but if they can cool an engine I think they can cope with an IC no?

Ted Baldwin

.......I don't dispute what has been said about two pumps in series. Neither am I advocating it. I got my car back and this is the new set up I have and they gave me the reasons why, accompanied by a 570RWHP dynograph which if true is the highest RWHP figure for an AMGV8K. So I decided to ask about it. What this means to me is that I could get even bigger gains by using both pumps in parallel but I have 570 reasons not be in a rush.


Ted

Yacht Master

rflow,
Thanks for the information. Clearwater is a little past local to Ft Lauderdale , I see you are in Miami. It would seem to me that a Johnson MARINE pump could be found in the greater Miami, Ft Lauderdale area, we have a few boats around here.

Boy I guess that C090 P5-1 is MORE than enough, is that the replacement that everyone is using? Do you have this pump on your E?
BTW nice rims.

Considerations,
I prefer a magnetic drive pump. Pumps with shafts and seals not the best. The hose connections are 1.5" on the C090 that makes plumbing a challenge with bushings reducers and barbs. The C090/CM090 draws over 9 amps (125 watts/13.5V=9.25A) at that level it would be a good idea to add a relay and heavy gage wire. The weight at almost 6 lbs, it's big. Capacity of 90 LPM is 650% greater than stock, I guess it will move the approximately 3 gals of coolant in the system.


Moving the coolant faster is not my goal. I am looking to increase the thermal transfer of the already small intercooler. A larger volume of coolant and larger radiator (W/icetray ) will make the cold side more efficient. At 18 LPM flow rate the change out of coolant in the intercooler is at about 4 seconds. I have not done the superheat calculations yet, and can only guess at how many BTUs I need to detonate. What ever it is, we are limited by the size of our intercooler.

tigerlam92

Totally agreed with Vadim on the issue with two pumps. This is exactly what people have found with fuel pumps as well. On other cars, I have done two fuel pump in series, experience the lockup when one fail, and then replaced with one big fuel pump. or two in parallel.

One question I have with isolating the supercharger coolant for the E55 is how would you know if it is low? If there is a leak somewhere or evaporation and the coolant is gone, the efficiency is totally gone. E55 has the good fail safe to shut off the supercharger to save the motor, but you will have no way to check the coolant level or to add it. On my Camaro, I actually have a big ice chest that I can put ice in for the drag but also allow me to check and add fluid. I think for the E55 the risk is small that the coolant level for the supercharger runs low. But I would definitely check this once in a while.

Yacht Master

I plan to install a MB expansion tank. I think one from a 201 will work, it has a coolant level sensor in it and will tap that in to the engine coolant level sensor. You can also see the coolant level thru the side of the tank. Side note you need this tank / reservoir to allow any trapped air to burp out of system, air is the enemy in this cooling circuit.

More info post 34, i think.

rflow306

Thanks
Yes this is the pump i currently run on the E the C090 and is what evo and Klee are still using as far as i know.
Sorry, I drive a lot so local is a stretch. . I ordered it ups ground and got it the next day. No one in Miami had it in stock but these are the listed dealers in Florida. http://www.johnson-pump.com/jpmarine...a.html#florida

Yes you would need a good relay and new wires to the pump. I triggered the relay off 12v ignition to run all the time.
This pump really makes a difference when you separate the cooling system and increase the water volume. An additional heat exchanger is a must with a resorvoir, imho. The install requires some work but it's not to difficult. The inlet and outlet are reduced to -12 so the pump flow is reduced. This required using some weldable fittings and some hose to make work.

The ice tray or cooler reservoir would work the best, i just don't want to run lines to the trunk and fabricate a large reservoir. I think the engine compartment is to cramped to install a decent size one. The cooler method has been shown to work the best on drag applications, since the days of the Vortech igloo coolers. It would reduce iats more than the slr coolers talked about on this forum at the dragstrip or dyno. Nevertheless with any configuration you can think of this pump is still overkill. Like you mentioned the actual ic core size will become your limiting factor.

Vadim @ FD

OK, let me see if I can clear this up:

1. Pump. Yes - both Kleemann and evosport use C090 Johnson pump.

2. It does require adapters from 0.75'' to 1.5''.

3. Evosport's IC Cooling kit comes with a separate reservour that allows one to keep tabs on coolant level.

All these issues I addressed when the kit was designed back in 2004.

http://www.evosport.com/product/prod...ER.M5K.PPC.211

Yacht Master

rflow
Thanks so much for your input, That Johnson pump is a brute! I have shot flys with a 12 gauge before, cause if a little is good then more is better.
I think I am on the right track. And Vadim if your reading this thanks for posting the EVO link. I will try to incorporate some updates to the original evo solution. This will be a stand alone cooling circuit. The pumps will have no shaft seals, magnetic drive, and inlet/outlet sized correctly.(leak control) Dual pumps that draw a total of 4 amps or less. Mercedes Benz Expansion tank with coolant level sensor. Full sized 110/10 charge air cooler with smaller oem cooler.
Thanks again,

ScottCLS55

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