Thoughts on E63 TT
03-05-2007, 06:10 PM
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You could do an STS system on the E63 but you would need to limit the boost until higher in the rpm range so you don't overstress the tranny. You could do this by an electronic wastegate.
03-05-2007, 07:22 PM
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E63
I was thinking of the STS system. Do you think this will create problems for both the engine and trans? Currency Motors did the STS system to the M5, which has higher compression than the E63. Of course just because they did it, does not mean that the M5 will hold together. I like the idea of the electronic wastegate to manage low rpm torque.
03-05-2007, 07:56 PM
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I would worry about the rest of the drivetrain, gE63. With low boost and some meth, you should get some good power out of a turbo setup. I don't know how the tranny and rear would like it, though 
03-05-2007, 08:48 PM
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Greg: one thing to keep in mind is the design specs on the OEM parts. For example, the E55 trannys are designed to take quite a bit more than the HP/TQ we are rated for. The M cars may be similar. In your case, the E63 tranny is literally at its limits, so you do need to be careful. Obvious worst case is a blown tranny or diff, but that is still no fun.
I like the concept of a system that can be turned on and off. Simple ECU mods should also be good for some gains as will be a better breathing system. All of those are ways to get easy gains out of a high compression NA motor that we do not get from the SC'd ones.
I like the concept of a system that can be turned on and off. Simple ECU mods should also be good for some gains as will be a better breathing system. All of those are ways to get easy gains out of a high compression NA motor that we do not get from the SC'd ones.
03-05-2007, 10:49 PM
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I was thinking of the STS system. Do you think this will create problems for both the engine and trans? Currency Motors did the STS system to the M5, which has higher compression than the E63. Of course just because they did it, does not mean that the M5 will hold together. I like the idea of the electronic wastegate to manage low rpm torque.
I wouldn't do it but it could be done. If you want more power and have deep pockets, go for it and everyone else will benefit from your R&D. It's just painfully expensive if you blow your engine. The E63 would be an absolute monster on less than 10 psi of boost.
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03-06-2007, 03:31 PM
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Does anybody know how much it cost for the M5 STS twin turbo setup? I'm sure the price to do this on an E63 would be similiar.
Has anybody tried nitrous oxide on a 63 yet? If you could get a 100 shot of nos that might not be too bad...however, if these STS turbos can get you an extra 300hp with no side affects then I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.
Has anybody tried nitrous oxide on a 63 yet? If you could get a 100 shot of nos that might not be too bad...however, if these STS turbos can get you an extra 300hp with no side affects then I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.
03-06-2007, 05:49 PM
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Does anybody know how much it cost for the M5 STS twin turbo setup? I'm sure the price to do this on an E63 would be similiar.
Has anybody tried nitrous oxide on a 63 yet? If you could get a 100 shot of nos that might not be too bad...however, if these STS turbos can get you an extra 300hp with no side affects then I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.
Has anybody tried nitrous oxide on a 63 yet? If you could get a 100 shot of nos that might not be too bad...however, if these STS turbos can get you an extra 300hp with no side affects then I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.
300hp with no side effects? Are you kidding me?
03-06-2007, 06:18 PM
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Does anybody know how much it cost for the M5 STS twin turbo setup? I'm sure the price to do this on an E63 would be similiar.
Has anybody tried nitrous oxide on a 63 yet? If you could get a 100 shot of nos that might not be too bad...however, if these STS turbos can get you an extra 300hp with no side affects then I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.
Has anybody tried nitrous oxide on a 63 yet? If you could get a 100 shot of nos that might not be too bad...however, if these STS turbos can get you an extra 300hp with no side affects then I don't see why you wouldn't go for it.
03-06-2007, 08:54 PM
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With 5-6 psi, 6.3L should be in high600HP and high500sTQ.
Rear Turbo setup has been done many, many years ago (there was a story in 70s Hot Rod). It can be done on E63 fairly easily.
The question remaing is - transmission. On the street, with stock tires, it will probably live. At the drags or road course, I would not chance it.
Software, filters, pulleys and headers should put the car in mid500s. After that cams will be needed to get to 600HP.
In reality how many of current 63 owners have pushed the car to where 504HP is not enough????
Rear Turbo setup has been done many, many years ago (there was a story in 70s Hot Rod). It can be done on E63 fairly easily.
The question remaing is - transmission. On the street, with stock tires, it will probably live. At the drags or road course, I would not chance it.
Software, filters, pulleys and headers should put the car in mid500s. After that cams will be needed to get to 600HP.
In reality how many of current 63 owners have pushed the car to where 504HP is not enough????
03-06-2007, 09:40 PM
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This is a fun calculator. I have found it to be very accurate on supercharged cars. The return on a turbocharged car would be even greater. An engine producing 420 RWHP in normally aspirated form would yield close to 600 RWHP on 6 psi of boost and a 3 core intercooler. An E64 would need around 8 psi of boost to produce an additional 300 crank HP and 15 psi would produce around 1000 crank hp.
http://www.superchargersonline.com/h...r.asp?submit=1
http://www.superchargersonline.com/h...r.asp?submit=1
03-07-2007, 09:01 AM
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Isn't the STS M5 TT making 800 crank hp? If thats true, I'm sure the E63 could do the same. And yeah, I guess the tranny would be the limiting factor...
I still want to know how much this setup costs. The new M3 looks sweet and if I could get a reliable turbo added to it then
.
I'm sure an E63 Turbo would blow the doors off of almost anything on the road, please somebody do it so we could have a 10 (maybe 9) sec E63 to brag about.
I still want to know how much this setup costs. The new M3 looks sweet and if I could get a reliable turbo added to it then
. I'm sure an E63 Turbo would blow the doors off of almost anything on the road, please somebody do it so we could have a 10 (maybe 9) sec E63 to brag about.
03-07-2007, 09:07 AM
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My C5 Z06 made 388rwhp NA with long tube headers/cold air. I added a Vortech supercharger @ 6psi and laid down 544rwhp with no other changes. I expect that it would have made over 600rwhp in that same trim @ 9psi with meth and be just as safe.
I swapped to a twin turbo setup on that car, so I don't know what it would have made with more boost
Based on the power delivery, I'd rather have a centrifugal blower on a car like the 63. Avoid the heavy hit of tq from turbos/nitrous, it would be easier on drivetrain parts. Blow 6-8psi into the motor, maybe a few more with meth and you'll have a monster that drives like stock until you step on it.
03-07-2007, 09:31 AM
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I think the STS set-up and an electronic wastegate would be the ticket. With a twin-turbo system, you could produce whatever boost you wanted at whatever rpm and you wouldn't have the parasitic draw of the supercharger. Not to mention, the turbo's would most likely improve your MPG over stock. I like superchargers too but I think the car is better suited for a twin-turbo system.
03-07-2007, 09:37 AM
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I think the STS set-up and an electronic wastegate would be the ticket. With a twin-turbo system, you could produce whatever boost you wanted at whatever rpm and you wouldn't have the parasitic draw of the supercharger. Not to mention, the turbo's would most likely improve your MPG over stock. I like superchargers too but I think the car is better suited for a twin-turbo system.
I agree. As long as you can control the boost, I can't find any downside to an upgrade like this. The E63 n/a is powerful enough to get you moving, I can't imagine the rush when boost comes on. Plus, I haven't taken a good look under the hood, but I do remember reading somewhere that there is no room for a supercharger. Is RennTech/Kleeman/Brabus working on a forced induction kit for the 63's?
03-07-2007, 09:39 AM
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I think the STS set-up and an electronic wastegate would be the ticket. With a twin-turbo system, you could produce whatever boost you wanted at whatever rpm and you wouldn't have the parasitic draw of the supercharger. Not to mention, the turbo's would most likely improve your MPG over stock. I like superchargers too but I think the car is better suited for a twin-turbo system.
How would turbos improve MPG?
The centrifugal on my Z06 made no difference in fuel economy. With manifold vacuum, my bypass valve was open and boost was recirculated without going into the engine. My TT setup has twin bypass valves (no BOV because of routing and I don't want to vent to atmosphere) and will operate the same way.
As far as turbo vs. centrifugal - the turbos give a pretty good tq hit when they initially spool up. A centrifugal builds boost based on RPM, so you don't get that big hit down low. As far as parasitic drag, it's not an issue with the size blower and pulley that you'd use on a system only producing enough boost to generate 6-8psi.
A centrifugal would compliment the higher RPM capability of the E63, adding HP at the top end with very little tq added down low. This would allow full throttle launches at the strip, even on drag radials, without breaking drivetrain parts.
YMMV, IMO
03-07-2007, 09:58 AM
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How would turbos improve MPG?
The centrifugal on my Z06 made no difference in fuel economy. With manifold vacuum, my bypass valve was open and boost was recirculated without going into the engine. My TT setup has twin bypass valves (no BOV because of routing and I don't want to vent to atmosphere) and will operate the same way.
As far as turbo vs. centrifugal - the turbos give a pretty good tq hit when they initially spool up. A centrifugal builds boost based on RPM, so you don't get that big hit down low. As far as parasitic drag, it's not an issue with the size blower and pulley that you'd use on a system only producing enough boost to generate 6-8psi.
A centrifugal would compliment the higher RPM capability of the E63, adding HP at the top end with very little tq added down low. This would allow full throttle launches at the strip, even on drag radials, without breaking drivetrain parts.
YMMV, IMO
The centrifugal on my Z06 made no difference in fuel economy. With manifold vacuum, my bypass valve was open and boost was recirculated without going into the engine. My TT setup has twin bypass valves (no BOV because of routing and I don't want to vent to atmosphere) and will operate the same way.
As far as turbo vs. centrifugal - the turbos give a pretty good tq hit when they initially spool up. A centrifugal builds boost based on RPM, so you don't get that big hit down low. As far as parasitic drag, it's not an issue with the size blower and pulley that you'd use on a system only producing enough boost to generate 6-8psi.
A centrifugal would compliment the higher RPM capability of the E63, adding HP at the top end with very little tq added down low. This would allow full throttle launches at the strip, even on drag radials, without breaking drivetrain parts.
YMMV, IMO
03-07-2007, 10:03 AM
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I paid $5700 on a $6700 retail price, then spent about $250 tuning it (not bad for almost 160rwhp ). There are tuners selling kits that are totally custom with just a standard headunit for *LESS* than some of the bigger companies charge for their kits. I have no doubt that a good tuner like A&A Corvettes in Cali could fabricate a kit for a Benz that wouldn't break the bank.
Andy @ A&A has fabricated all his own piping and brackets for Corvette kits and sells them for < $6k.
edit - I do all my own work, so the install just cost me some time.
). There are tuners selling kits that are totally custom with just a standard headunit for *LESS* than some of the bigger companies charge for their kits. I have no doubt that a good tuner like A&A Corvettes in Cali could fabricate a kit for a Benz that wouldn't break the bank.Andy @ A&A has fabricated all his own piping and brackets for Corvette kits and sells them for < $6k.
edit - I do all my own work, so the install just cost me some time.
03-07-2007, 10:41 PM
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From Honeywell turbo technologies website:
"Specifically, for a given displacement you have to make power with RPM on a naturally aspirated engine. If you have a turbocharger, you make power with boost, and everything being equal, at lower RPM, with less friction and with better fuel economy."
An engine is at it's greatest fuel economy at its peak torque. The farther you are from the peak torque range of the engine the greater the decrease in fuel efficiency. In other words, the engine is the most efficient at the lowest speed at which it can provide the desired power. Of course, the turbocharged car would be less eficient on fuel in much more spirited driving situations since it would have the ability to burn more fuel and produce more hp than a normally aspirated engine. The same applies to diesels but to a much greater degree with fuel efficiency as it relates to turbos vs normal aspiration.
"Specifically, for a given displacement you have to make power with RPM on a naturally aspirated engine. If you have a turbocharger, you make power with boost, and everything being equal, at lower RPM, with less friction and with better fuel economy."
An engine is at it's greatest fuel economy at its peak torque. The farther you are from the peak torque range of the engine the greater the decrease in fuel efficiency. In other words, the engine is the most efficient at the lowest speed at which it can provide the desired power. Of course, the turbocharged car would be less eficient on fuel in much more spirited driving situations since it would have the ability to burn more fuel and produce more hp than a normally aspirated engine. The same applies to diesels but to a much greater degree with fuel efficiency as it relates to turbos vs normal aspiration.
03-08-2007, 04:36 PM
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I wouldn't mess with an s/c or turbo kit without changing your internal engine components. Simply said, the E63 is not designed to take boost, it's designed as a naturally aspirated engine. Unless you have a lot of money to blow and a daily driver, installing a turbo will prove to be a nightmare I'm sure.
Just my $0.02
Just my $0.02
03-09-2007, 01:17 AM
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I wouldn't mess with an s/c or turbo kit without changing your internal engine components. Simply said, the E63 is not designed to take boost, it's designed as a naturally aspirated engine. Unless you have a lot of money to blow and a daily driver, installing a turbo will prove to be a nightmare I'm sure.
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Just my $0.02
03-09-2007, 08:16 AM
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I don't think the internals of the M5 were touched when they TT'ed it so possibly the internals of the E63 don't have to be strengthened either. Not saying they are the same engine but they are both high revving high compression engines.
03-09-2007, 08:50 AM
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Problem with HC N/A motors is when you add boost the cylinder pressure goes so high that pre ignition can become a major problem ...
Its not too difficult to fix though - get slightly shorter & lighter conrods slap them in, then you are free to turn up the wick on the blowers ... which ever you choose. Ok so you lose some go low down - but top end will be outrageous.
Its not too difficult to fix though - get slightly shorter & lighter conrods slap them in, then you are free to turn up the wick on the blowers ... which ever you choose. Ok so you lose some go low down - but top end will be outrageous.
