jimand7

+1 well said. the 63 engine just does not belong in the heavier cars. It is a great engine for e/c/clk

sack5000

Marcus,
You have too many cars.
Sack

Ted Baldwin

.........shhhhhh! Don't tell this to Germancar1. He'll have a fit.

Ted

juicee63

Positives for the 63
1. 63 puts out more power than the 600
2. You get the AMG package
3. The car looks 20-30k better than a 600
4. the MSRP is 7k less
5. Cars are very similar in performance
6. Cars look vastly different
7. N/A engine costs far less to maintain
8. Engine will likely last longer

If you line up a 63 AMG with a 600 in the CL class model 99% would assume the 63 costs MORE not less. The car is a stunner, it stands out. The 600 is a very nice ride, but the two cars appeal to a completely different buyer. Guy buying an AMG wants a sporty look coupled with luxury. The 600 driver is usually looking for stealth power coupled with luxury. I would take the 65 and put this thread to bed

JAYCL600

Mercedes had no business sticking that motor with its anemic torque #'s into a car that weighs this much. Im surprised it can get out of its own way, comparing the two on performance is a joke.

jimand7

first of all I have to disagree on your first point that the 63 has more power. I am sure you have seen the dyno #'s on the 63 engine...it is very powerful but how mercedes comes up with 517 is a joke vs "only" 510 for the 600. plus how can you say an engine that produces 150lb/ft of torque LESS has MORE power?
2) I do like the AMG package agreed there
3)that is very debatable
4)true
5)DISAGREED I buried that guy in the 63 in the real world
6)ok i give you that
7)it may cost less to maintain but not for a long time and the 600 engine because of the tranny is WAAAAAAY has way more mods available...for 6k$ I can add120+hp and 100+MORE torgue with just the renntech stage 1. try that in a 63.
8)the engine will last longer ? refer to 7 and trust me the v12 is a ton smoother that the 63 engine.
ON your final points I agree except there is a little thing called the v12 badge that does add status. not that i care about that at ALL. Status is smoking a buddy who has a cl63 haha to me
the 65 is awesome but another 50k more..for 200k I would be thinking more about a fiorano ( I know good luck finding one for that) but that truly is the supercar price starting point...

Marcus Frost

Juice,

Most of your strong points agreed with what I said. Please don't take my rhetoric too harshly, it's just that the 63 engine doesn't do anything for me.

1 - Maybe on paper, in the real world they make the same hp stock. You think the E55 really only makes 469hp?
2 - Already agreed with that
3 - Not 20-30k better
4 - Can't argue with that
5 - Stock yes, modified, not even close - an important differentiation for me
6 - Repeating yourself
7 - I'd want to see that from Mercedes
8 - I'd want to see that from Mercedes

Here's my SL600. Only things done looks wise (aside from the wheels) were a blacked out 600 grill, Carlsson Front Lip, RENNTech rear spoiler, and it's lowered. It did not cost $30k for those mods, not even close. Not to mention for $5k I had somewhere in the neighborhood of 620hp with the RENNTech ECU and TCU. No 63 is going to match that.



Keep in mind I currently own an E55, and I sold the 600. I'm not anti-AMG.

-m

juicee63

Well they gave it 11 more hp LOL. The lag on the turbos can be bothersome.
my car is 4600 lbs with driver and it would not get walked by a 600(stock) beaten by a smidge perhaps. Having the V-12 must feel incredible, however most drivers never utilize the power of either car. I know your car is fast and I know it looks great. The AMG package on the CL 63 looks great and it is not a "dog" compared to the 600. One guy massacred his neighbor, and the guy had dealer plates. If the 63 engine is a dog than it is a puppy dog when showing few miles on the ODO. The tests of the two cars would suggest they are very close in performance.(stock ) to (stock).

Here are some reviews and seemingly they all say the same thing.

From AUTOWEEK "Torque and horsepower in the CL63 are impressive, but so too are the steering and handling. In comparing the handling of the CL63 to the two base models of the car—the CL550 and CL600 (“Two Doors, Too Fun,” Oct. 2)— there is more weight on-center, which gives a better feel of stability in a straight line. Push it into the corners and the weighting doesn’t change from light to heavy as the suspension loads up. With 2.8 turns lock-to-lock, the steering has the same feel throughout the corner, continuing that feeling of confident predictability".


From Car and Driver

"Unlike other AMG specials, though, the key difference isn’t a matter of extra muscle. There’s certainly plenty of that—518 horsepower, 465 pound-feet of torque, thanks to a new 6.2-liter V-8, an engine designed, developed, and produced in-house by AMG.

But the 5.5-liter twin-turbo V-12 of the CL600 and S600 almost matches the horsepower of the V-8, trumps its torque with a prodigious 612 pound-feet, and likely beats the straight-ahead hustle of the CL63 and S63 by a small margin, even though Mercedes estimates a 0-to-60-mph time of 4.5 seconds for all of them.

That’s pretty quick for cars weighing well over two tons.

But what sets these AMG editions apart is a level of athleticism and nifty footwork that’s absent in their more mainstream counterparts. This shows up in a near-total absence of body roll in hard cornering, and quicker responses in a series of linked turns—mountain switchbacks, for example. AMG achieved this partly by employing harder suspension bushings, a time-honored tuning trick, but mostly by retuning the computer-controlled profile of the ABC active suspension system, which is pure 21st century.

Sticky Yokohama tires lend extra grip and high-speed stability, oversize brakes exploit the added adhesion, and AMG-specific bucket seats lend a much higher level of lateral support.

But the most instantly tangible element in the AMG editions is steering that clearly communicates with the driver, a striking contrast with the lifeless helms of the other CL- and S-class offerings.

With most Mercedes-Benz models, the AMG massage makes the subject vehicle the most expensive member of a particular model line. And that’s still true for the 604-hp CL65 and S65 AMG versions which cost almost $200,000.

But these second AMG offerings in the CL- and S-class replace the old supercharged CL55 and S55 and maintain their relative price positioning below the CL600 and S600. Those prices are expected to start at about $130,000 for the CL63 and $126,000 for the S63 when they go on sale in June. Does that sound like a lot of money? Maybe. But it’s less than the CL600 and S600. Bargains sometimes come in very fancy packages".


So you are getting the AMG package at a discount to the CL 600 and the S600. Straight line goes to the 600 but in every test the 63 is more trackable.

juicee63

Impressive cars and Mods. I am simply suggesting not necessarily "actual cost" but what the consumer sees. I hate to say this because it sucks but most the population THINKS the 6.3 is a V-12 TT, LOL. I explain nope just a V-8. My conclusion would be a guy looking for the look of the AMG is not going to give two thoughts to that V-12 600 in any body style. The V-8 will include many Mods that will conclude with a 63 TT Thanks for the further explanation. If it is engine we are seeking why buy a new CL 600 when you could pick up an 2006 at a vast pricing discount. The 06 is every bit as fast as the 07? Well most folks like LOOKS more than engine. Would I take an 1000 hp Mustang over my 63? uh no, would I take a 65 AMG , uh yes!! I want a car out of the box that is inspiring and the CL 63 AMG looks better than the CL 600 IMHO. I could care less if I get bet 0-60. Take it to Willow and see the 63 outperform the 600 and the 55. It has been said more than a few times by pro drivers and rags and some rookie drivers. The 63 handles better than other platforms. The CLK Black will be an amazing track car. So what do you want? Looks like you have it!! I would take an AMG over any of the models. Offer me an S600 over my 63 I say NO, A Cl 600 , NO..A Cl 65 YES, a S65 hell yeah! I looked for an 06 S65 and SL 65 prior to my 63 purchase. The looks of the CLS got me more than the engine. In the CLS I had to have AMG.

GLTY,

jimand7

I just dont see the relevance of a less powerful engine on an AMG model. AMG to me signals top of the line, and the 63 engine is not top of the line(actually it is 3rd in line, behind the 600 and 65). I think the 63 engine is awesome just not when there is a more powerful car available. especially in a very heavy car like the S and CL.
I will never ever track my CL and anyone who thinks a CL63 was ever inteded
for a track is smokin some good stuff( i am not suggesting that you did). It would be fun to do, dont get me wrong but that is not the car i would take.
to each their own but I just wonder why in a perfect world there are 4 Cl's when there should jsut be 3. 550,600,65.

JAYCL600

stock 600's trap 115-117, thats not a smidge, and I hate to tell you in that big CL that motor is dog in comparison to a 600 with as much torque as it has, its a fact not my opinion. To move these heavy cars with any type of velocity you need lots of torque, and thats the one department the 63 lacks unfortunately as it has been shown in the 55 vs 63 debate, how could you throw a 600 into the mix and call it close is beyond me.

ItalianStallion

Mercedes just continued with the same type of lineup they had before:
500, 55, 600, 65.

I guess its the same argument as to why would anyone want a 55kompressor over a 600TT.

But I totally agree that the V12TT is a far superior engine and I would love to own one. I can't see getting 460tq vs 600+tq, plus the potential to turn it into a low 11 second car just puts the nails in the coffin.

I believe the reason that Mercedes doesn't offer the AMG look on the CL600 is because they knew nobody would ever get a 63 over a 600 with AMG package.

mlbmd

I am listening to the discussion back and forth as I try to decide between the cl63 with performance package or the cl600. Initially I thought the cl63 was absolutely the way to go, but now I am leaning toward the cl600. It may lose just a bit on styling points, but overall it seems to me to be more of a powerhouse. Currently drive an E63AMG; fast but not plush enough. Had a 2002 cl500; great vehicle stylewise but needed more punch.

Marcus Frost

If the choice was 63 vs 600, I'd pick 600 - without hesitation. That's me. The V12 is just the business. Give a call to Kleemann after you buy it, and for ~$5k say hello to CL65 horsepower and torque.

When I bought my SL600 it was SL55 vs SL600... again, no hesistation - 600 was the easy choice. With the sport package and a few choice mods, the 600 looked all as good as an SL55, and with just a Stage 1 upgrade made more power and torque than a "stage 5" 55 car.

-m

jimand7

that is the reason...there is no reason to buy the 63 if the 600 had the "sport" package...it is available everywehre except the US.

I know they had four models in the past but they released the 65 with only 2 yrs left on the old body style.
v12 is they way to go on these cars without a doubt IMHO.
and as I will do in the future put a small tasteful body package on the CL..and some wheels too.

juicee63

Yes it is a Fact the 600 has more TORQUE. It is also a FACT that AMG cars out handle non AMG models. A CL 63 AMG is going to have many features that make it superior to the 600. Torque would not be one of them. The tests done so far show the 600 to be slightly faster 0-60. 4.5 to 4.6? As far as trap speeds nobody has a clue what the CL 63 will do its likely it will do similar to my car adding .2 for weight. I guess you are of the opinion a 600 is light years faster than a 55 as well? There are other ways to get the car moving, compression and gearing. Your 600 is not what we are comparing to it is a 600 vs and AMG CL 63 out of the box. You stating the engine is a "dog" is an opinion not a fact. It is way to early in the game to make such a statement. There have been not one track run of a CL 63, there may never be. The guy racing likely failed to take out his charcoal filters..LOL. I will be in Sacramento Saturday and likely will be victimized by some FAST cars does that make my car a "dog"? Any stock Cl 600 that would like to run thats where I will be SACRAMENTO...Also any stock 55 any M5, M6. The 63 will beat plenty of cars and at 4570 my car is not LIGHT and it uses a N/A V-8. In real world terms nobody is going to embarass a 63 with a stock 55 or 600.


Anybody with a 63 think they are driving a "dog"?

jimand7

my dad beat me in his sl600 to about a hundred from a dig both bone stock and i was in my e55. i jumped out to 30 and he very slowly got about a half car length b4 the old man got scared hehe. But I would imagine that the 600 is signifcantly faster from 100-140

Bluemax

HELL NO!! I Didn't want to add fuel to this thread but if i wanted a 600 model anything i would have bought one. This thread is about a CL not a E or a CLS so who gives a *&^%. I would think the race would have a different out come if the new driver knew his car. Two cars to a hundred MPH is what maybe two tenths of a second. Thats not a kill in my book it was a gift from a new driver and a new motor. Maybe one day there will be a rematch with a different outcome.

juicee63

Glad the 1/4 mile ends...I think the 63 has some good speed from 130-190, although I conceede racing a V-12 would be likely a losing battle. I Understand your point and I do see a "Great" car seemingly underpriced when compared to the 63. I also would rather have an E55 over any other 55 simply because you get the fastest ride for the best price! I would consider the S63 but dam I would be mad cause I would ant the 65. I am not ******* the 600 just trying to counter the 63 engine is lacking. I imagine the plan would be to TT the 63 for the next round of cars. Say goodbye to the 12? I dunno. Why else would they put the engine in the top of the line cars?

Ted Baldwin

........I don't undersand why we are re-arguing already settled facts. The 600 is consederably faster than the 55, period, end of story, settled. Many including me, have seen these cars run side by side many times. Sl600 vs E55, Cl600 vs E55. It was never even a contest.

........Now, the only way the 63 is as fast as the 600 or "close" to the 600 is if you believe that the 63 is faster than the E55. This of course is not true. I think the issue of acceleration is settled. Arguing that point just makes 63 owners loose more credibility because the answer is obvious.

......However, acceleration is not everything. The Cl63 looks nicer than the CL600. in my opinion it explains why in the USA the CL600 does not come with AMG trinklets. If it did, very few will buy the CL63. MBUSA saw this coming.

......As far as handling, I share everyone's view that the CL63 and 600 are too heavy for this to be an issue. No one buys a heavy CL63 or CL600 because they handle very well. So whatever advantage the CL63 may or may not have in this department is insignificant. Mentally, if this makes a CL63 owner feel better about their purchase, so be it.

Ted

R107SL

These are vastly different. The 600 is a highway monster and autobahn cruiser, where as the 63 is more of a track focused car. Take the 600 and 63 on a track, and I can assure you that the 63 will kill a 600.

Ted Baldwin

..........You my be right, but anyone that wants to go to the track will not buy a 4600LB CL63. This advantage if it exists, is purely intellectual. Both cars are essentially autobahn cruisers. Same goes for S63 and S600. Is the S63 a track car too?

Ted

bfnnrgn

I just wish they made an E600. Oh what fun that would be.

JAYCL600

oh my would I snag one in a heartbeat

Addicted2Speed

the 63 engine makes sense in smaller cars like C, CLK, and SLK... but I can't understand why anyone would want a big car with that engine, especially when you can have a V12 bi-turbo for almost the same price. As far as handling, I bet you most people wouldn't be able to tell a difference between CL63 and CL600... plus the car is a freakin boat, nobody buys these things for handling. If anything, CL600 is more comfortable, which is a plus in my book for a luxury coupe. As far as looks, again, most people wouldn't even be able to tell the difference. If you're self-concious about looks, order the 600 with an AMG kit and get quad muffler and it looks 100% the same. And finally, now that the 6.3L V8 is finding its way into the entry-level C-class... I certainly wouldn't want my top of the line Mercedes to have the same engine they use in a C-class.