Custom pistons and rods
10-10-2007, 01:53 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Does 12k + include the pistons though? If so then I would say that is why I'd tell everyone to get a warranty and give the problem to the dealer
Not a big fan of sleeving this block especially if I'm trying to make big HP.
I know Teddy B(Ted baldwin)
will be pioneering this but I'd have to see how long or how reliable the application would be.
From what I remember PTE does not recommend it.
I would'nt put a sleeved blk in my car unless I owned a Honda.you have to sleeve those blcks when going F/I but those motors don't last,especially under high boost.
Not a big fan of sleeving this block especially if I'm trying to make big HP.
I know Teddy B(Ted baldwin)
will be pioneering this but I'd have to see how long or how reliable the application would be. From what I remember PTE does not recommend it.
I would'nt put a sleeved blk in my car unless I owned a Honda.you have to sleeve those blcks when going F/I but those motors don't last,especially under high boost.
............Some clarification. Sleeving the block is not the main event. Getting lower compression pistons with thicker rods is the point. Sleeving just allows the the new pistons to become compatible with the block because the stock block is coated. Sleeving may then also offer the additional benefit of cylinder wall reinforcement. It makes no sense to me to use stock pistons with a sleeved block. Even though the wall of the stock block is thin, it is usually the pistons and rods that first get broken in the even of detonation.
........My project was done for the purpose of getting lower compression for twin turbo application. I am now re-thinking the turbo. I like the combo of the Kleemann s/c with smaller s/c pulley and larger light weight crank pulley.
............PTE was specifically referring to how the top of pistons are shaped as being very important. You can run into serious trouble with oil leakage if your engine builder does not know what he is doing. I have been in communication with PTE.
Ted
10-10-2007, 03:57 PM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
Does 12k + include the pistons though? If so then I would say that is why I'd tell everyone to get a warranty and give the problem to the dealer
Not a big fan of sleeving this block especially if I'm trying to make big HP.
I know Teddy B(Ted baldwin) will be pioneering this but I'd have to see how long or how reliable the application would be.
From what I remember PTE does not recommend it.
I would'nt put a sleeved blk in my car unless I owned a Honda.you have to sleeve those blcks when going F/I but those motors don't last,especially under high boost.
Not a big fan of sleeving this block especially if I'm trying to make big HP.
I know Teddy B(Ted baldwin)
will be pioneering this but I'd have to see how long or how reliable the application would be. From what I remember PTE does not recommend it.
I would'nt put a sleeved blk in my car unless I owned a Honda.you have to sleeve those blcks when going F/I but those motors don't last,especially under high boost.
If I were building a turbo e55 to make a 1000 hp sleeving would be the first thing I did. Sleeving just has to be done the right way to keep the sleeve from moving under high hp.
10-10-2007, 05:13 PM
#28
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I understand why you did it and I want it to work. Sleeving does make me nervous but I know it's done. I have not seen anything personally go wrng but I have heard alot of horror stories if it's not done right and the sleeve comes loose.
I know what he was talking about concerning aftermarket pistons and oversized valves . Months ago he had mentioned that the pistons needed to be fly-cut in order to provide room for the valves so that they don't come into contact with the aftermarket pistons.
The piston shape and oil leakage part he never mentioned to me.
10-10-2007, 05:14 PM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
That includes crank, rods and pistons all assembled at the factory. The retail price is higher.
If I were building a turbo e55 to make a 1000 hp sleeving would be the first thing I did. Sleeving just has to be done the right way to keep the sleeve from moving under high hp.
If I were building a turbo e55 to make a 1000 hp sleeving would be the first thing I did. Sleeving just has to be done the right way to keep the sleeve from moving under high hp.
The thing is to find a capable experienced machnine shop which does it.
10-10-2007, 05:15 PM
#30
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You are the man Ted!!! You mind me asking how much the rods and pistons set you back? You should put a smaller s/c pulley on the car since unlike 55k motors, the Kleemann pulley can be easily replaced. The problem you may run into is additional fueling for more air. GREAT work Ted! Cant wait to see your results!
You mind me asking how much the rods and pistons set you back? You should put a smaller s/c pulley on the car since unlike 55k motors, the Kleemann pulley can be easily replaced. The problem you may run into is additional fueling for more air. GREAT work Ted! Cant wait to see your results!We did this...went to 0.7-0.9 and the belts did not last long...they work OK only with 0.6...but this 210 E55 had 211 E55 Pistons and something else...
10-10-2007, 05:17 PM
#31
MBWorld Fanatic!
There is a certain level of Boost after which SC is not efficient, just overheating...as I have been told its 18PSI inside SC which is achived with 175mm pullies...
10-10-2007, 05:19 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
The belt wont last long...we tried that...stopped at 0.6 (stock pulley 0.5)...ask Vadim he can help you out if you still wanna try...
Last edited by E55 RUSS; 10-10-2007 at 05:37 PM.
10-10-2007, 05:32 PM
#33
Out Of Control!!
10-10-2007, 05:36 PM
#34
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I know that they are different...but my friend has Kleemann210 E55 S8 !!!
10-10-2007, 06:53 PM
#35
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E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
I think the blocks are alusil and not nikasil coated. Alusil is a process where by the silica molecules in the aluminum are brought to the surface and honed to give a diamond like piston wall hardness. You could coat the block in nikasil or coat the pistons in nikasil. However, the best bet is to get the iron coated Mahle pistons made for the Alusil bore. http://www.mahle.com/C125705E004FDAF...6RJYM064MARSEN
The biggest problem with finding the Mahle pistons is that they don't sell in small batches. When they did, a batch of 8 was around $4,000. These guys also sell pistons that work in the Alusil bores:
http://www.usa.kolbenschmidt-pierbur...idtunisia.html
You can't run an aluminum piston in an aluminum bore without some type of coating. BMW used a Nikasil coating in some of their engines but Mercedes has preferred to use Alusil bores with iron coated aluminum pistons.
The biggest problem with finding the Mahle pistons is that they don't sell in small batches. When they did, a batch of 8 was around $4,000. These guys also sell pistons that work in the Alusil bores:
http://www.usa.kolbenschmidt-pierbur...idtunisia.html
You can't run an aluminum piston in an aluminum bore without some type of coating. BMW used a Nikasil coating in some of their engines but Mercedes has preferred to use Alusil bores with iron coated aluminum pistons.
10-10-2007, 07:06 PM
#36
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Thread Starter
No Ted,I was referring to a conversation I had with PTE over the wknd in regards to sleeving a cylider in an AMG blck.
I understand why you did it and I want it to work. Sleeving does make me nervous but I know it's done. I have not seen anything personally go wrng but I have heard alot of horror stories if it's not done right and the sleeve comes loose.
I know what he was talking about concerning aftermarket pistons and oversized valves . Months ago he had mentioned that the pistons needed to be fly-cut in order to provide room for the valves so that they don't come into contact with the aftermarket pistons.
The piston shape and oil leakage part he never mentioned to me.
I understand why you did it and I want it to work. Sleeving does make me nervous but I know it's done. I have not seen anything personally go wrng but I have heard alot of horror stories if it's not done right and the sleeve comes loose.
I know what he was talking about concerning aftermarket pistons and oversized valves . Months ago he had mentioned that the pistons needed to be fly-cut in order to provide room for the valves so that they don't come into contact with the aftermarket pistons.
The piston shape and oil leakage part he never mentioned to me.
...........As far as working, I'm already past that point. The engine is back in the car and with the Kleemann s/c and I drove it from ATL to Miami with the new engine.
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; 10-10-2007 at 07:15 PM.
10-10-2007, 07:14 PM
#37
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Thread Starter
...........The boost pressure in these cars is about 6-7PSI compared to W211 E55's stock boost pressure of 12 with a stock compression ratio of 9:1
.........You can see that if you can successfully lower the compression ratio of the Kleemann S7's and S8's to 8.5:1, you have the potential to make a lot of power by raising your boost to say 12 or 13. At least in theory. Yes there will be more heat and no one knows at what point the Kleemann s/c starts to overspin, but we are no where nerar the 18PSI you are speaking of.
Ted
10-10-2007, 07:24 PM
#38
Out Of Control!!
Come up with Albert and Patrick.Lead the way with the boost my friend. I will follow your foot steps. How do you plan on delivering more fuel? C/r can be lowered using a simple custom head gasket.
Last edited by blackbenzz; 10-10-2007 at 07:27 PM.
10-10-2007, 08:16 PM
#39
MBWorld Fanatic!
I think the blocks are alusil and not nikasil coated. Alusil is a process where by the silica molecules in the aluminum are brought to the surface and honed to give a diamond like piston wall hardness. You could coat the block in nikasil or coat the pistons in nikasil. However, the best bet is to get the iron coated Mahle pistons made for the Alusil bore. http://www.mahle.com/C125705E004FDAF...6RJYM064MARSEN
The biggest problem with finding the Mahle pistons is that they don't sell in small batches. When they did, a batch of 8 was around $4,000. These guys also sell pistons that work in the Alusil bores:
http://www.usa.kolbenschmidt-pierbur...idtunisia.html
You can't run an aluminum piston in an aluminum bore without some type of coating. BMW used a Nikasil coating in some of their engines but Mercedes has preferred to use Alusil bores with iron coated aluminum pistons.
The biggest problem with finding the Mahle pistons is that they don't sell in small batches. When they did, a batch of 8 was around $4,000. These guys also sell pistons that work in the Alusil bores:
http://www.usa.kolbenschmidt-pierbur...idtunisia.html
You can't run an aluminum piston in an aluminum bore without some type of coating. BMW used a Nikasil coating in some of their engines but Mercedes has preferred to use Alusil bores with iron coated aluminum pistons.
I also believe that Alusil is what BMW uses as well now. The nikasil coated v8(5/7 series) and inline 6 engine (89 to 91I believe M5) BMW had was a disaster.
10-10-2007, 08:20 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
Perhaps you could even coax him into building the headgaskets for you!
I think another guy who may be going with a turbocharger is Rich(Mbenzman) ,he would perhaps be another good source.
Last edited by ProjectC55; 10-10-2007 at 08:22 PM.
10-10-2007, 08:48 PM
#41
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I am so glad I caught this post, because I am sorry to say you have a lot of bad info. Fist off the Japanese have been Nikasiling thier cylinder bore for years now and when I raced AMA Superbike that is all my Suzuki's had. The piston from JE and Wiseco ran fine as long as you order the right rings.
A company called Millennium Technologies back in Ohio can replate your cylinders, they can also repair almost anything and they do a tremendous job. One of the issues with Nikasil is that it is very very hard and to hone it you need hones with Diamond cutters. I had several engines bored to a larger diameter by Millennium Tech and so did most of the other guys who I raced against. And they do all sorts of car stuff too. Back in 2002 it was a $100 a hole to have them bore out your stock cylinder set everthiing up for the new pistons you sent with the block and they would replate the bores, hone them and finish hone the cylinders to the desired piston to wall clearance.
In addition a re plated bore ran cooler, laster ten times longer and made about 5% more Hp than an iron sleeve. And the replating which is really more of a plasma coating that gets honed to size. Nothing like chome plating of the old days.
I highly recommend them and when I finally build my engine it will certinally go to MT for a bigger bore and I will have them set up the cylinders for my new pistons. I can think of 12 jobs they have done for me in the last 8 years or so and everyone was spot-on. Plus the rings will last much much longer.
When you get the block back it will be perfect and ready to have the pistons and rings installed and all the holes will be straight, round and honed to the proper clearance. Really the only way to go in my book.
Resleeving a cylinder is such a hard thing to do and to get it to stay sealed under high boost pressure is even worse. I can't even recall all of the blown head gaskets that we would see from guys who went that route.
Before you go the resleeving route call MT and talk to them. I think you will find it is the best way to go. I will stake my two AFM Overall Superbike Championships on it.
I hope this helps
Jeff
A company called Millennium Technologies back in Ohio can replate your cylinders, they can also repair almost anything and they do a tremendous job. One of the issues with Nikasil is that it is very very hard and to hone it you need hones with Diamond cutters. I had several engines bored to a larger diameter by Millennium Tech and so did most of the other guys who I raced against. And they do all sorts of car stuff too. Back in 2002 it was a $100 a hole to have them bore out your stock cylinder set everthiing up for the new pistons you sent with the block and they would replate the bores, hone them and finish hone the cylinders to the desired piston to wall clearance.
In addition a re plated bore ran cooler, laster ten times longer and made about 5% more Hp than an iron sleeve. And the replating which is really more of a plasma coating that gets honed to size. Nothing like chome plating of the old days.
I highly recommend them and when I finally build my engine it will certinally go to MT for a bigger bore and I will have them set up the cylinders for my new pistons. I can think of 12 jobs they have done for me in the last 8 years or so and everyone was spot-on. Plus the rings will last much much longer.
When you get the block back it will be perfect and ready to have the pistons and rings installed and all the holes will be straight, round and honed to the proper clearance. Really the only way to go in my book.
Resleeving a cylinder is such a hard thing to do and to get it to stay sealed under high boost pressure is even worse. I can't even recall all of the blown head gaskets that we would see from guys who went that route.
Before you go the resleeving route call MT and talk to them. I think you will find it is the best way to go. I will stake my two AFM Overall Superbike Championships on it.
I hope this helps
Jeff
10-10-2007, 09:11 PM
#42
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Thread Starter
...............I had plans for a piggy back computer when I was going to turbo. Since I'm now looking at just raising the boost with the Kleemann s/c, I am going to see how the boost sensitive fuel pressur regulator works and I'm prepared to do furher custom ECU tune.
..............I'm also in contact with Mbenzman. He is no longer going the turbo route.
Ted
10-10-2007, 09:27 PM
#43
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Thread Starter
I am so glad I caught this post, because I am sorry to say you have a lot of bad info. Fist off the Japanese have been Nikasiling thier cylinder bore for years now and when I raced AMA Superbike that is all my Suzuki's had. The piston from JE and Wiseco ran fine as long as you order the right rings.
A company called Millennium Technologies back in Ohio can replate your cylinders, they can also repair almost anything and they do a tremendous job. One of the issues with Nikasil is that it is very very hard and to hone it you need hones with Diamond cutters. I had several engines bored to a larger diameter by Millennium Tech and so did most of the other guys who I raced against. And they do all sorts of car stuff too. Back in 2002 it was a $100 a hole to have them bore out your stock cylinder set everthiing up for the new pistons you sent with the block and they would replate the bores, hone them and finish hone the cylinders to the desired piston to wall clearance.
In addition a re plated bore ran cooler, laster ten times longer and made about 5% more Hp than an iron sleeve. And the replating which is really more of a plasma coating that gets honed to size. Nothing like chome plating of the old days.
I highly recommend them and when I finally build my engine it will certinally go to MT for a bigger bore and I will have them set up the cylinders for my new pistons. I can think of 12 jobs they have done for me in the last 8 years or so and everyone was spot-on. Plus the rings will last much much longer.
When you get the block back it will be perfect and ready to have the pistons and rings installed and all the holes will be straight, round and honed to the proper clearance. Really the only way to go in my book.
Resleeving a cylinder is such a hard thing to do and to get it to stay sealed under high boost pressure is even worse. I can't even recall all of the blown head gaskets that we would see from guys who went that route.
Before you go the resleeving route call MT and talk to them. I think you will find it is the best way to go. I will stake my two AFM Overall Superbike Championships on it.
I hope this helps
Jeff
A company called Millennium Technologies back in Ohio can replate your cylinders, they can also repair almost anything and they do a tremendous job. One of the issues with Nikasil is that it is very very hard and to hone it you need hones with Diamond cutters. I had several engines bored to a larger diameter by Millennium Tech and so did most of the other guys who I raced against. And they do all sorts of car stuff too. Back in 2002 it was a $100 a hole to have them bore out your stock cylinder set everthiing up for the new pistons you sent with the block and they would replate the bores, hone them and finish hone the cylinders to the desired piston to wall clearance.
In addition a re plated bore ran cooler, laster ten times longer and made about 5% more Hp than an iron sleeve. And the replating which is really more of a plasma coating that gets honed to size. Nothing like chome plating of the old days.
I highly recommend them and when I finally build my engine it will certinally go to MT for a bigger bore and I will have them set up the cylinders for my new pistons. I can think of 12 jobs they have done for me in the last 8 years or so and everyone was spot-on. Plus the rings will last much much longer.
When you get the block back it will be perfect and ready to have the pistons and rings installed and all the holes will be straight, round and honed to the proper clearance. Really the only way to go in my book.
Resleeving a cylinder is such a hard thing to do and to get it to stay sealed under high boost pressure is even worse. I can't even recall all of the blown head gaskets that we would see from guys who went that route.
Before you go the resleeving route call MT and talk to them. I think you will find it is the best way to go. I will stake my two AFM Overall Superbike Championships on it.
I hope this helps
Jeff
..............My engine builder actually talked to those guys. It depends what your goals are. If your goal is to go high boost on am oem Mercedes benz engine block, you should seriously consider sleeving. Especially if you want to turbo and get 100HP like the Supra guys. I don't know how many folks here have seen our engines with pistons and rods removed. The wall is very very thin. Yes even on the AMG engines. Sleeving is nothing new. It is just that there now people crazy enough to tear a mercedes benz engine apart and rebuild it for fun. Like everything else, it depends on the skill and experience of the person doing it. Mine took a year and half to complete. Not a feasible route for most.
...........one word of caution if you decide to sleeve. Our engines have floating rods, NOT floating pistons. The engine design is a "pistong guided rod assembly." Your engine builder has to be able anchor your new new pistons. You CANNOT have floating pistons.
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; 10-10-2007 at 09:31 PM.
10-10-2007, 09:48 PM
#44
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10-10-2007, 10:40 PM
#45
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AMG C43, 1999
Ted,
I am sorry to hear the cylinder wall thickness is very thin. What have you guys measured on your motor? Does your builder have any data on the 113 motors?
The Carrillo rods are nice. I have never seen a Carrillo rod break. Did those rods come with the SPS bolts?
What was your piston to head clearance on your engine?
I am just dying to pull my engine and get some valve guides made with a thinner ID and use thinner stems on some Ferrea Valves to reduce reciprocating mass in the valve train. And then use a cam with a very fast opening and closing ramp and about 10 to 15 degrees more duration. And then also close up the piston to deck height to around .030".
I would certainly want to look at making the pistons float on the wrist pin and let the crank and bottom end of the rods locate themselfs down there.
Why can't you do that on your engine? Curious I guess
Jeff
I am sorry to hear the cylinder wall thickness is very thin. What have you guys measured on your motor? Does your builder have any data on the 113 motors?
The Carrillo rods are nice. I have never seen a Carrillo rod break. Did those rods come with the SPS bolts?
What was your piston to head clearance on your engine?
I am just dying to pull my engine and get some valve guides made with a thinner ID and use thinner stems on some Ferrea Valves to reduce reciprocating mass in the valve train. And then use a cam with a very fast opening and closing ramp and about 10 to 15 degrees more duration. And then also close up the piston to deck height to around .030".
I would certainly want to look at making the pistons float on the wrist pin and let the crank and bottom end of the rods locate themselfs down there.
Why can't you do that on your engine? Curious I guess
Jeff
10-10-2007, 11:12 PM
#46
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Thread Starter
..............ok you win. Mbenzman has my W210E55 that we have been discussing. I shipped it from south Fl back to him in Atlanta for service because I do not yet know any good shops in south FL for serious mercedes benz work. I spoke to Mbenzman 4 days ago. If he decided in the last 4 days to turbo his ML55, then I stand corrected. In either case, I have forgotten now what Mbenzman's turbo (if true) has to do with what we were discussing. Is he rebuilding the ML55 engine before turboing it?
Ted
10-10-2007, 11:17 PM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Ted,
I am sorry to hear the cylinder wall thickness is very thin. What have you guys measured on your motor? Does your builder have any data on the 113 motors?
The Carrillo rods are nice. I have never seen a Carrillo rod break. Did those rods come with the SPS bolts?
What was your piston to head clearance on your engine?
I am just dying to pull my engine and get some valve guides made with a thinner ID and use thinner stems on some Ferrea Valves to reduce reciprocating mass in the valve train. And then use a cam with a very fast opening and closing ramp and about 10 to 15 degrees more duration. And then also close up the piston to deck height to around .030".
I would certainly want to look at making the pistons float on the wrist pin and let the crank and bottom end of the rods locate themselfs down there.
Why can't you do that on your engine? Curious I guess
Jeff
I am sorry to hear the cylinder wall thickness is very thin. What have you guys measured on your motor? Does your builder have any data on the 113 motors?
The Carrillo rods are nice. I have never seen a Carrillo rod break. Did those rods come with the SPS bolts?
What was your piston to head clearance on your engine?
I am just dying to pull my engine and get some valve guides made with a thinner ID and use thinner stems on some Ferrea Valves to reduce reciprocating mass in the valve train. And then use a cam with a very fast opening and closing ramp and about 10 to 15 degrees more duration. And then also close up the piston to deck height to around .030".
I would certainly want to look at making the pistons float on the wrist pin and let the crank and bottom end of the rods locate themselfs down there.
Why can't you do that on your engine? Curious I guess
Jeff
Ted
10-10-2007, 11:48 PM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
Honestly.
10-12-2007, 03:46 PM
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
...........The Kleemann S7 and S8's are low boost applications because the stock compression ratio on the engines are 10.5:1.
...........The boost pressure in these cars is about 6-7PSI compared to W211 E55's stock boost pressure of 12 with a stock compression ratio of 9:1
.........You can see that if you can successfully lower the compression ratio of the Kleemann S7's and S8's to 8.5:1, you have the potential to make a lot of power by raising your boost to say 12 or 13. At least in theory. Yes there will be more heat and no one knows at what point the Kleemann s/c starts to overspin, but we are no where nerar the 18PSI you are speaking of.
Ted
...........The boost pressure in these cars is about 6-7PSI compared to W211 E55's stock boost pressure of 12 with a stock compression ratio of 9:1
.........You can see that if you can successfully lower the compression ratio of the Kleemann S7's and S8's to 8.5:1, you have the potential to make a lot of power by raising your boost to say 12 or 13. At least in theory. Yes there will be more heat and no one knows at what point the Kleemann s/c starts to overspin, but we are no where nerar the 18PSI you are speaking of.
Ted
Will lower compression you should be fine to run more boost but you will be blowing belts cuase Klemann SC designed to run low boost...Our 210 S8 with 0.7-0.8 boost was blwoing belt after 2 1/4 WOT runs...during 2nd run...
10-12-2007, 07:36 PM
#50
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Thread Starter
...........I know that the 18 PSI is for the AMG V8K. I know that the Kleemann s/c's run on low boost. The 0.7-0.8 figure you quoted is the same as the 6-7 PSI I quoted in the post you responded to. The difference is in the units. One is in bars and the other is in pounds per square inch.
..........As far as your friends S8 shredding belts; I have discovered that Kleemann V8K's require a slighly longer belt than stock. If your friends car is shredding belts that frequently, something is wrong with the either the belt lenght, one or more pulleys or the alignment of one or more pulleys. In this regard, the water pump pulley is usually the culprit. I have been through all this with my car.
Ted
