Real world hp for ECU tune?
09-30-2007, 04:08 PM
#26
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2015 S212
tis true on 06's not been effected by it, or are you just agreeing to the genral paragraph 
I ask because you are an 06 to
.
as for the ecu tune 50hp from ecu alone seems high!!! from what others offer
also did'nt a few users mention that the k&n filters were no good on our cars?
something to do with making the engin bay hotter if i recall due to the design
?
or was that on the M cars can not remeber
I ask because you are an 06 to
.as for the ecu tune 50hp from ecu alone seems high!!! from what others offer
also did'nt a few users mention that the k&n filters were no good on our cars?
something to do with making the engin bay hotter if i recall due to the design
?or was that on the M cars
can not remeberThis is such an old topic. Thanks to Vadim for clarifying a few things for us. It all comes down to the extent of modification that you have. Having a stock car and spending $2K on an ECU tune, looking for hp is just not the right move. Now, once you've modified it to where it is out of the ECU's sweet spot, then you will clearly see gains.
To the guy that said 155 is enough: Sorry, dude. Mine goes to 160 and it is NOT enough.
Another topic:
I still have not seen ANY gains from an ECU tune on an '06 built in '06 E55. I would be extremely interested, if any vendor has it (dyno sheets) and can prove that they have control of he appropriate parameters.
10-02-2007, 06:47 PM
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SL55
Most interesting and informative. I have had the same experience with "chip" tuning - mostly on Porsche. Chips do seem to add some HP - mostly due to adjusting the ignition map (i.e. advance etc). My experience is about 10-12 hp on a 205 hp base Porsche engine and 15-17 on a 280 hp base engine (these are crank hp numbers). I would like to hear your comment on the octane rating/timing advance issue as related to cars that are designed for the world - low octane expectation of 89 vs the use of 93 octane that we have available to the people here on the east coast. AMG does a very good job of ECU programing but they are limited to the "lowest common denominator" issue of octane rating. I think this is where ECU tuning has an edge over the factory AMG ecu tune. Comments?
Welcome to the forums...
To answer your question, I think Vadim already answered this up on post #11 on this thread... Stating that you can tweek another 3-4 RWHP with the 93 octane fuel... This seems totally inline, and I have no reason to doubt his numbers.
Best,
RoydRage
10-02-2007, 07:47 PM
#28
Thanks RoydRage - after some additional thought I realized that older Porsche's did not have a knock sensor and thus can gain a little more from an ECU tune then more modern engine management systems. The manufactures have left little on the table for ECU tuning without going to additional mods (i.e. headers, larger pulley etc). This forum offers lots of good thoughts and good ideas. Thanks again.
10-02-2007, 10:59 PM
#29
10-02-2007, 11:09 PM
#30
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And even that doesn't really tell you anything unless you personally know the car/cars, and what was done to it/them. You could do a stock car, and then compare it to and ECU/Pulley Cooling mod, and say "Hey!" "This car just has my New Great ECU flash!"
Now I'm not insinuating that... BUT, I know one thing. I don't believe 50HP from software alone. And if a car with an ECU tune alone beat a car with an ECU tune AND a Pulley,(something that will really build HP by building boost), than that car might have had a bad IC pump.
I've been racing Motorcycles since I was 9 years old, and cars since I was 16. I have built more race motors than I can count. I am an award winning NHRA "PRO" Class Drag Racer, I have Road Raced Bikes, Motocrossed, I have gone 7's in the Quarter mile, more importantly I've built all these motors, And I can tell you I *REALLY* Doubt 50hp from software.
I motor is an air pump, nothing more... You make HP by getting Air Into the motor, and getting it out more efficiently. You do this... By forcing more air in; Supercharger/Turbocharger), Porting cylinder heads, increasing Volumetric efficiency, (combustion chamber shape, Increased spark, etc), Larger throttle body/Carb, Camshafts... This works by increasing the amount of lift at the valve, and Keeping the valve open longer through the stroke, but also makes the car very peaky, and ruff running at low speeds... Why? because you are over rich at those low speeds and have a contaminated intake charge...
Optimum intake charge speed is 275fps. Now when you port and make a surface area bigger, velocity goes down... the only thing will increase it again is RPM/Volume, that is why porting goes with Camshaft profile.
Cams increase power by having a supercharging affect, but this only works at high RPM because with a long duration cam you are keeping the Intake valves open as the Piston approaches TDC on the power stroke, Now at high RPM this works because the fuel has so much velocity, It keeps cramming itself into the combustion chamber even though the piston is trying to push it back out! BUT, at low speeds the piston does this, and the fuel charge goes back into the ports, and often plenum getting re-richened. Also exhaust can get back into the combustion chamber at low speeds contaminating the intake charge, that is why wild cams run ruff at low speeds.
Now along with headers, and exhaust mods that aid in getting spent fuel out of the motor, and help evac the combustion chamber making room for more fuel/air, and purifying the charge, these are some of the things that really boost HP.
Now what I guess I'm saying TUNING alone can account for a slight improvement. Vadim claims 20hp... This it totally believable... 50HP? NO!
Guess what? AMG just AIN'T that bad! How much can you push engine ignition timing and fuel curves? The cars are rich enough stock, so you advance timing, and lean it out till what? You have a hole in the piston?
AMG when building a motor will push those parameters to a level they feel safe with for long term reliability, now is there margin in that? Yes, but they would not throw away that much power, I assure you they're no dummies.
Now I was happy with my Evotech tune, it took away the bad affects of the MB IC pump relay campaign, and gave me a little extra... Something I could feel which thrilled me, so I posted about it... Even there Ingenere had to come on my post, and push his stuff... Do you seed Adam, or Vadim continually doing that? No... They post to help people... All this guy does is (who is a chiropractor), is continually advertise, and push his ECU tune all over these forums... and I'm sick of hearing it, In my opinion his claims are unrealistic, and I don't want to get continually beat over the head with them.
Sorry, but I had to call him on it.
I love this forum, and I like a lot of the people on it... The E55 threads especially... all you guys are devoted, and really into this, and I applaud, and appreciate you!
Best Always,
RoydRage
Now I'm not insinuating that... BUT, I know one thing. I don't believe 50HP from software alone. And if a car with an ECU tune alone beat a car with an ECU tune AND a Pulley,(something that will really build HP by building boost), than that car might have had a bad IC pump.
I've been racing Motorcycles since I was 9 years old, and cars since I was 16. I have built more race motors than I can count. I am an award winning NHRA "PRO" Class Drag Racer, I have Road Raced Bikes, Motocrossed, I have gone 7's in the Quarter mile, more importantly I've built all these motors, And I can tell you I *REALLY* Doubt 50hp from software.
I motor is an air pump, nothing more... You make HP by getting Air Into the motor, and getting it out more efficiently. You do this... By forcing more air in; Supercharger/Turbocharger), Porting cylinder heads, increasing Volumetric efficiency, (combustion chamber shape, Increased spark, etc), Larger throttle body/Carb, Camshafts... This works by increasing the amount of lift at the valve, and Keeping the valve open longer through the stroke, but also makes the car very peaky, and ruff running at low speeds... Why? because you are over rich at those low speeds and have a contaminated intake charge...
Optimum intake charge speed is 275fps. Now when you port and make a surface area bigger, velocity goes down... the only thing will increase it again is RPM/Volume, that is why porting goes with Camshaft profile.
Cams increase power by having a supercharging affect, but this only works at high RPM because with a long duration cam you are keeping the Intake valves open as the Piston approaches TDC on the power stroke, Now at high RPM this works because the fuel has so much velocity, It keeps cramming itself into the combustion chamber even though the piston is trying to push it back out! BUT, at low speeds the piston does this, and the fuel charge goes back into the ports, and often plenum getting re-richened. Also exhaust can get back into the combustion chamber at low speeds contaminating the intake charge, that is why wild cams run ruff at low speeds.
Now along with headers, and exhaust mods that aid in getting spent fuel out of the motor, and help evac the combustion chamber making room for more fuel/air, and purifying the charge, these are some of the things that really boost HP.
Now what I guess I'm saying TUNING alone can account for a slight improvement. Vadim claims 20hp... This it totally believable... 50HP? NO!
Guess what? AMG just AIN'T that bad! How much can you push engine ignition timing and fuel curves? The cars are rich enough stock, so you advance timing, and lean it out till what? You have a hole in the piston?
AMG when building a motor will push those parameters to a level they feel safe with for long term reliability, now is there margin in that? Yes, but they would not throw away that much power, I assure you they're no dummies.
Now I was happy with my Evotech tune, it took away the bad affects of the MB IC pump relay campaign, and gave me a little extra... Something I could feel which thrilled me, so I posted about it... Even there Ingenere had to come on my post, and push his stuff... Do you seed Adam, or Vadim continually doing that? No... They post to help people... All this guy does is (who is a chiropractor), is continually advertise, and push his ECU tune all over these forums... and I'm sick of hearing it, In my opinion his claims are unrealistic, and I don't want to get continually beat over the head with them.
Sorry, but I had to call him on it.
I love this forum, and I like a lot of the people on it... The E55 threads especially... all you guys are devoted, and really into this, and I applaud, and appreciate you!
Best Always,
RoydRage
Well said RoydRage.
10-03-2007, 12:09 AM
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E63,,,not any more,,,BMW X5 50i
I guess I am kind of confused.........I know that in the heavy duty industry, it is common knowledge that you can tune diesel engines by way of electronics. It is not uncommon to see a 50-100 hp increase on CAT and Cummins engines just by changing the electronics on the engine. Question, why would it be impossible to tune a gasoline in the same way? The best way to determine the validity of their claims is to have them do independant dyno testing before and after. The first tuner who can do this and SHOW real world increases, would get a lot of business. Until that happens.....no sale!!
10-03-2007, 11:50 AM
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S600TT, R350
Question, why would it be impossible to tune a gasoline in the same way?
Just as an example - on Bentley Continental GT, I can add 80HP with a simple software flash. From 550HP to 630HP in less than an hour.
10-03-2007, 01:36 PM
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E63,,,not any more,,,BMW X5 50i
On modern turbo diesel or turbo gas cars/trucks, boost is controlled by ECU. By reprogramming boost levels and A/F ratios tuner can easily add 50-70HP. On E55, boost is mainly controled by kompressor speed, therefore requiring bigger crank pulley for increase in boost.
Just as an example - on Bentley Continental GT, I can add 80HP with a simple software flash. From 550HP to 630HP in less than an hour.
Just as an example - on Bentley Continental GT, I can add 80HP with a simple software flash. From 550HP to 630HP in less than an hour.
10-03-2007, 04:58 PM
#34
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Well...I had re-tuned my ECU more then 10 times and tried diff AFR...amd I can tell you good ECU with right AFRs for you beast can make night and day, win or loose difference...
I runned my car against same car Evotech E55 and Evotech SL55 and Kleemann K4 with 11.5, 12.0 and 12.2 AFR at WOT...and I can tell you that btw 12-12.2 there is differnce and you can feel it...
Before Evoetch E55 would catch ME and pass ME in 1/4, Kleemann K4 would run dead even with 11,5 mixture...My chip tuner have been runing safe...
Then we tried 12.0 and I spanked K4 car in 1/4 by 2 cars and runned dead even but still beat Evotech E55 with track slicks and 18 wheels, I have 19 wheels with 285/30 tyres...
Now I run 12.2 mixture nd I actually start pulling on SL55 with TCU EGS done at higher speed, before he would start to catch up with ME...
Now I have installed IC mod and Airbox and tubes and going to adjsut ME ECU again but not sure HOW...cause with IC mod I could run leaner but with more air to motor for airbox and tubes, I need more fuel also...
We going to test tommorow...
I runned my car against same car Evotech E55 and Evotech SL55 and Kleemann K4 with 11.5, 12.0 and 12.2 AFR at WOT...and I can tell you that btw 12-12.2 there is differnce and you can feel it...
Before Evoetch E55 would catch ME and pass ME in 1/4, Kleemann K4 would run dead even with 11,5 mixture...My chip tuner have been runing safe...
Then we tried 12.0 and I spanked K4 car in 1/4 by 2 cars and runned dead even but still beat Evotech E55 with track slicks and 18 wheels, I have 19 wheels with 285/30 tyres...
Now I run 12.2 mixture nd I actually start pulling on SL55 with TCU EGS done at higher speed, before he would start to catch up with ME...
Now I have installed IC mod and Airbox and tubes and going to adjsut ME ECU again but not sure HOW...cause with IC mod I could run leaner but with more air to motor for airbox and tubes, I need more fuel also...
We going to test tommorow...
10-03-2007, 06:09 PM
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E63,,,not any more,,,BMW X5 50i
On modern turbo diesel or turbo gas cars/trucks, boost is controlled by ECU. By reprogramming boost levels and A/F ratios tuner can easily add 50-70HP. On E55, boost is mainly controled by kompressor speed, therefore requiring bigger crank pulley for increase in boost.
Just as an example - on Bentley Continental GT, I can add 80HP with a simple software flash. From 550HP to 630HP in less than an hour.
Just as an example - on Bentley Continental GT, I can add 80HP with a simple software flash. From 550HP to 630HP in less than an hour.
10-04-2007, 04:35 AM
#36
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10-04-2007, 05:00 AM
#37
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Thread Starter
emmm what are the factors that one has to consider when tuning ECU?
boost
a/f ratio
any others
were the numbers russ was referring to a/f ratios with the 11.0 12 etc
boost
a/f ratio
any others
were the numbers russ was referring to a/f ratios with the 11.0 12 etc
10-04-2007, 05:51 AM
#38
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The diff btwn the E63 and E55 is IAT's ... 55's run hoter and will be more sensitive to knocking so ECU software tends to play on the carefull side ... Better cooling will delay the iginition timing being pulled... and better fuel will help too.
Given we change boost from stock levels ECU sees higher boost and goes into proteciton mode dumping fuel... so you go pig rich and power is poor and lumpy ....
I can quite easliy believe that a proper leaned out from a pig rich scnerio on a E55 can result in big differences... the difference being that timing is being pulled in one instance with as well with too rich a mixture and in the other a better mixture with no timing being pulled can easliy translate into 50hp in my opinion....
In a E63 you can only advance the timing as IAT's are constant as there is no F/I ... you can only go to the knocking point and back it off a tad from there - nothing more you can do on the N/A motor with ECU. The F/I has more variables that come into play and each can be programmed in a way not to rob you of power and with higher boost leverage off it, as in stock form the E55 runs rich ...
Given we change boost from stock levels ECU sees higher boost and goes into proteciton mode dumping fuel... so you go pig rich and power is poor and lumpy ....
I can quite easliy believe that a proper leaned out from a pig rich scnerio on a E55 can result in big differences... the difference being that timing is being pulled in one instance with as well with too rich a mixture and in the other a better mixture with no timing being pulled can easliy translate into 50hp in my opinion....
In a E63 you can only advance the timing as IAT's are constant as there is no F/I ... you can only go to the knocking point and back it off a tad from there - nothing more you can do on the N/A motor with ECU. The F/I has more variables that come into play and each can be programmed in a way not to rob you of power and with higher boost leverage off it, as in stock form the E55 runs rich ...
10-04-2007, 05:53 AM
#39
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yes they are AF ratios ...
how about this ...
boost
a/f ratio
Ignition advance / timing
IAT repsonse vs mapping
S/C enagement points
BTW I think above 12.2 you are getting a little lean on the FI motor and would only run premium fuel with this AFR.
A 12.2 AFR with race gas could be a killer combo ...
how about this ...
boost
a/f ratio
Ignition advance / timing
IAT repsonse vs mapping
S/C enagement points
BTW I think above 12.2 you are getting a little lean on the FI motor and would only run premium fuel with this AFR.
A 12.2 AFR with race gas could be a killer combo ...
Last edited by stevebez; 10-04-2007 at 05:56 AM.
10-04-2007, 07:55 AM
#40
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I run 98 BP...Which race gas are you talking about, jsut regualr 100-102 octaine ???...
Wanted to try VP Racing 106 or 116 Racing Gas (fully syntetic) but the guy who sells it told ME it wondt work on my car and said better get NOS octaine booster...
Wanted to try VP Racing 106 or 116 Racing Gas (fully syntetic) but the guy who sells it told ME it wondt work on my car and said better get NOS octaine booster...
10-04-2007, 10:36 AM
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W211 E55
Unless it changed after the EU, the Euro pumps I saw always stated the RON numbers. Perhaps that has changed.
There is usually about a 10-point delta between the RON + MON numbers, hence the ~5-point delta between Euro and USA octane ratings.
There is usually about a 10-point delta between the RON + MON numbers, hence the ~5-point delta between Euro and USA octane ratings.
10-04-2007, 10:37 AM
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W211 E55
10-04-2007, 12:15 PM
#43
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there's no need to run that high of an octane by using straight race fuel but you can mix it to increase octane. just make sure it's NOT leaded.
10-04-2007, 12:29 PM
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W211 E55 AMG
Gasoline AKI info
Good general info on gasoline and octane boosters
http://www.omegamotors.com/enjoy/gas...soline_06.html
http://www.omegamotors.com/enjoy/gas...soline_06.html
10-04-2007, 06:10 PM
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SL55AMG, Ferrari 348, Ferrari Testarossa, Ferrari F40, Ferrari Mondial t, Ducati 916, Indycar
If I remember correctly, a recent issue of EVO tested various fuels, with different octane ratings, as well as name brands and brand X. I am pretty sure they used an M3 and measured times and hp, and the higher octane fuels definitely made more power and were quicker.
10-05-2007, 07:20 AM
#47
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Did my ECU adjustment jsut now and I knew the didnt pull as hard after Airbox installed...My ECU correction data is 15%, so I got more air with aiboxes and we thought that I would be runing more lean and I would need to add more fuel...But it happand opposite my Afrs dropped from 12.2 to 11.7, we didnt on road adjustments and put back Afrs to 12.2...
We measured the boost and its at 0.98 (which is about 14 + Boost) this got ME thinking is ASP pully if 15PSI pully and I have Wrap Kit how come my boost is lower at WOT...Does it mean that my elt is still slipping
I spoked to my VP Racing fuel dealer and he said it wont make any diff on my car and also I have drown the fuel tank, if I mix I could hurt my engine...I my chip tuner said not to do it, cause we dont know how it would burn and what AFRs would be then...
So I am a bit cinfused and sacred to use Racing fuel but still wanna try it...
I dont know yet, may be I should jsut use 98 BP Ultimate (93 US) + NOS COctain booster which increases boost up to 6 numbers...
We measured the boost and its at 0.98 (which is about 14 + Boost) this got ME thinking is ASP pully if 15PSI pully and I have Wrap Kit how come my boost is lower at WOT...Does it mean that my elt is still slipping
I spoked to my VP Racing fuel dealer and he said it wont make any diff on my car and also I have drown the fuel tank, if I mix I could hurt my engine...I my chip tuner said not to do it, cause we dont know how it would burn and what AFRs would be then...
So I am a bit cinfused and sacred to use Racing fuel but still wanna try it...
I dont know yet, may be I should jsut use 98 BP Ultimate (93 US) + NOS COctain booster which increases boost up to 6 numbers...
Last edited by E55 RUSS; 10-05-2007 at 07:24 AM.
10-05-2007, 10:03 AM
#48
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So yes if RON is 98 , MON is typically 88 , so 98 Euro is 93 US. 98 Is preatty easily available in UK / Eur ... whats the best freely available in US?
10-05-2007, 10:06 AM
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10-05-2007, 11:18 AM
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W211 E55
Typo indeed, thanks for the correction.In most places ouside of the West Coast, 93 is the top grade. In some major markets, due to smog, oxygenated or reformulated with oxygenate is required. While the AKI remains the same, mileage and energy-per-volume is down due to use of ethanol.
Just one of the many reasons to use a local tuner, if possible. Hell, just going from summer to winter blend makes a difference, if you're running on the ragged edge...
