Ron Davis Heat Exchanger
10-26-2007, 03:33 PM
#26
MBWorld Fanatic!
code,
i'm no expert and can only comment on the studied results others have provided and my own experience in attempting to do the best i can without spending $15k on an slr style i/c kit. data logging shows that with every h/e only kit, no matter what format, yields similar results. kits from the small piggy back h/e's, to oversize replacement h/e's, or my system, an oversize replacement front mount h/e with an oversize remote mount h/e with twin spal fans using a 2 gallon reservoir and twin johnson cm30 pumps. iat's always creep up to the 130-150 mark with all kits...granted with my kit it takes a bit longer but it still happens. imho, if my kit can't do significantly better than other more simple h/e kits then the problem lies in the only item that hasn't been replaced...the i/c core. now these temps are much better than the 160+ mark seen on the oem system but they're still far from optimum.
if you compare that to those that are lucky enough to afford the slr style cooling kit that actually replaces the oem i/c core, you'll see why we believe the core itself to be the true limiting factor and any h/e only upgrade is worth moderate results at best.
a side note is that the s/c doesn't shut off until iat's reach 199 so that's not a good criteria to measure by. the ecu starts pulling timing and adding fuel when iat's reach the 140 mark so imho that's the most critical temp to discuss or target. i live in az so i'm at a large disadvantage which is the reason i went overboard with my system and i can't wait to finally get some data logging info in the winter.
i'm no expert and can only comment on the studied results others have provided and my own experience in attempting to do the best i can without spending $15k on an slr style i/c kit. data logging shows that with every h/e only kit, no matter what format, yields similar results. kits from the small piggy back h/e's, to oversize replacement h/e's, or my system, an oversize replacement front mount h/e with an oversize remote mount h/e with twin spal fans using a 2 gallon reservoir and twin johnson cm30 pumps. iat's always creep up to the 130-150 mark with all kits...granted with my kit it takes a bit longer but it still happens. imho, if my kit can't do significantly better than other more simple h/e kits then the problem lies in the only item that hasn't been replaced...the i/c core. now these temps are much better than the 160+ mark seen on the oem system but they're still far from optimum.
if you compare that to those that are lucky enough to afford the slr style cooling kit that actually replaces the oem i/c core, you'll see why we believe the core itself to be the true limiting factor and any h/e only upgrade is worth moderate results at best.
a side note is that the s/c doesn't shut off until iat's reach 199 so that's not a good criteria to measure by. the ecu starts pulling timing and adding fuel when iat's reach the 140 mark so imho that's the most critical temp to discuss or target. i live in az so i'm at a large disadvantage which is the reason i went overboard with my system and i can't wait to finally get some data logging info in the winter.
Last edited by chiromikey; 10-26-2007 at 03:45 PM.
10-26-2007, 03:41 PM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
None taken.
So what is the problem with the IC core you keep referring to? I know the C32 unit certainly isn't that bad. Sure it could use some smoothing out, but overall the unit is perfectly fine. Has the core been isolated by itself and tested to show that there is a problem that exists? Or is it an assumption based on exhaustive testing of every other component int he system?
I have spent an extensive amount of time around my Cobra and C32. They use near identical setups as the E55. I can say without a doubt that the weak link is the stock HE, and total system fluid capacity. I was making over 500rwhp in the Cobra. Never had an issue with high IATs at the track or otherwise.
No offense, but have you spent any time around air to water based systems other then the E55? I'm not saying the IC cant be improved, but it certainly isn't holding anyone back from achieving great results.
Maybe your expectations are too high? Ambient IATs during summer months? How about 20°-30° over ambient over 100°? There is hardly a difference in what we are trying to achieve in the bigger picture. Thats what I consistently see during aggressive driving. The SC doesn't shut off, the car is always making power and never feels sluggish. Under 100°, the gap closes, and gets closer to ambient very quickly.
I converted my C32 to a gravity based system. Fluid comes out of the IC hot, down into the HE to cool twice, through the pump, back up into my larger aluminum reservoir, that is baffled to cool more, then into the IC again. If I dump ice in to my reservoir, that ice cold water goes directly into the IC. Obviously the ice is only real beneficial for drag racing.
We are all on the same page as far as what we all want. Consistent power. I truly am interested in getting the problem solved. After spending time with the E55, I don't see what is so different about it. Separate the fluid, increase capacity, upgrade the pump, and upgrade the HE. I am interested in seeing what testing has been done to prove that the stock IC is the problem.
Edited: I just wanted to say sorry BrianS, I didn't mean to muck up your thread. Just trying to promote some good discussion
Yes plug and play is a very nice option
So what is the problem with the IC core you keep referring to? I know the C32 unit certainly isn't that bad. Sure it could use some smoothing out, but overall the unit is perfectly fine. Has the core been isolated by itself and tested to show that there is a problem that exists? Or is it an assumption based on exhaustive testing of every other component int he system?
I have spent an extensive amount of time around my Cobra and C32. They use near identical setups as the E55. I can say without a doubt that the weak link is the stock HE, and total system fluid capacity. I was making over 500rwhp in the Cobra. Never had an issue with high IATs at the track or otherwise.
No offense, but have you spent any time around air to water based systems other then the E55? I'm not saying the IC cant be improved, but it certainly isn't holding anyone back from achieving great results.
Maybe your expectations are too high? Ambient IATs during summer months? How about 20°-30° over ambient over 100°? There is hardly a difference in what we are trying to achieve in the bigger picture. Thats what I consistently see during aggressive driving. The SC doesn't shut off, the car is always making power and never feels sluggish. Under 100°, the gap closes, and gets closer to ambient very quickly.
I converted my C32 to a gravity based system. Fluid comes out of the IC hot, down into the HE to cool twice, through the pump, back up into my larger aluminum reservoir, that is baffled to cool more, then into the IC again. If I dump ice in to my reservoir, that ice cold water goes directly into the IC. Obviously the ice is only real beneficial for drag racing.
We are all on the same page as far as what we all want. Consistent power. I truly am interested in getting the problem solved. After spending time with the E55, I don't see what is so different about it. Separate the fluid, increase capacity, upgrade the pump, and upgrade the HE. I am interested in seeing what testing has been done to prove that the stock IC is the problem.
Edited: I just wanted to say sorry BrianS, I didn't mean to muck up your thread. Just trying to promote some good discussion
Yes plug and play is a very nice option
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...arge+reservoir
Anyways back on topic below is Chiro's set-up
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/202601-custom-i-c-setup.html
Last edited by rflow306; 10-26-2007 at 03:55 PM.
10-26-2007, 03:52 PM
#28
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Bentley Flying Spur, CL550
Here are the links to me and Chiro's systems, these types of set-ups have been around along time. Since you mentioned mustang, we use to have a vortech iglo cooler and were running a mondoxx Vortech blower back in the day with gret results but if you compare that core to what the 10.5 outlaw guys run nowadays it is a piece of junk.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...arge+reservoir
Anyways back on topic below is Chiro's set-up
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=202601
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...arge+reservoir
Anyways back on topic below is Chiro's set-up
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=202601
10-26-2007, 11:18 PM
#30
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E55
The problem is the actuall intercooler size itself.Too small.Secondly,the ecu programming is very conservative on when it starts to pull timing in regards to IAT's.
