short HEADERS: what results for Kleemann and Renntech ?
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You ready to hit the track again Phil?
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I definitely would like to hook up with all of you again. I have sent a card to Santa asking for A Quaiffe LSD, vrus Pulley and Drag radials!!! (:
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I'd still argue that shorties are shorties nd long ones aren't. Doing a little quasi playing with the lengths does NOTHING on the dyno. That is why I was so happy with the logs. Either way, you are leaving about 10hp by not going without the primary cats.
Now, the question to ask is what happens when the thing cracks. Will the vendor / shop step up and replace them quickly with new ones? That is key to me. I can't stand those that don't stand behind their products and workmanship. All I was worried about was getting the best quality at the best price. Well, I got it. I got RennTech parts and paid rock bottom pricing for it. Unfortunately, something went wrong and when the dust settled, there was no tuner or shop to be found. You may be happy now, while the prices are low, but you'll be pissed you ever went that route when your car is trashed.
Now, the question to ask is what happens when the thing cracks. Will the vendor / shop step up and replace them quickly with new ones? That is key to me. I can't stand those that don't stand behind their products and workmanship. All I was worried about was getting the best quality at the best price. Well, I got it. I got RennTech parts and paid rock bottom pricing for it. Unfortunately, something went wrong and when the dust settled, there was no tuner or shop to be found. You may be happy now, while the prices are low, but you'll be pissed you ever went that route when your car is trashed.
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cls 55 or FIAT Coupe T20v-6speed
thanks you for your pics ... but I'm a bit confused by first pics, it seems the hole inside is small..
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cls 55 or FIAT Coupe T20v-6speed
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You are finally getting my whole point. What good can it possibly do to make the longest tubes, if they will met up with the primary cats anyway? If I were going to cut the cats, I'd go long headers all the way. The FACT that ANY shorty header shows about 10 less HP than the long type tells me that the diameter is indeed the advantage. It allows the motor less restriction on exhaust AND it will pass Cali emissions. I'm getting the VRP ones because they are the best compromise, including price. $1550. Find me a better performing header for $2000 (max) and I'll switch. If not, shorty VRPs it is. Also, keep in mind why we need the headers? It is for top end on the 55s. We have grunt. I'm adding pulley and TB, which will get my bottom end even more. That is where the header compliments it all. It lets it spin more freely. I honestly only expect the difference to be from about 1/8th mile on. Anything more is cake for me.
NO, Kleemann is a Short with Large diameter. Let aside now the Cat issue.
issue is: WHAT IF with A SHORT+ LARGE COLLECTOR DIAMETER vs a SHORT+STOCK COLL.DIA. ?
I wouldn't speak about Long Header because it 's a quite different story, a very psycologically hard mod for a Merceds
(anexample: I like very much how Jackpro's car sounds now ,, should it have long perhaps 'd be faster but 'd not like it).
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This discussion has been done a few times. Have you seen this thread?
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...hlight=headers
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...hlight=headers
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thanks,
NO, Kleemann is a Short with Large diameter. Let aside now the Cat issue.
issue is: WHAT IF with A SHORT+ LARGE COLLECTOR DIAMETER vs a SHORT+STOCK COLL.DIA. ?
I wouldn't speak about Long Header because it 's a quite different story, a very psycologically hard mod for a Merceds
(anexample: I like very much how Jackpro's car sounds now ,, should it have long perhaps 'd be faster but 'd not like it).
NO, Kleemann is a Short with Large diameter. Let aside now the Cat issue.
issue is: WHAT IF with A SHORT+ LARGE COLLECTOR DIAMETER vs a SHORT+STOCK COLL.DIA. ?
I wouldn't speak about Long Header because it 's a quite different story, a very psycologically hard mod for a Merceds
(anexample: I like very much how Jackpro's car sounds now ,, should it have long perhaps 'd be faster but 'd not like it).
I believe that doing what you are presenting would gain you the same results as you would with a long header, since it would have to be pipe past the header. You could go race cats, but that is still a huge issue when it is done on the primary cats in California. Plus, dialing in the sensor after that becomes a nightmare.
What I think you are missing is the CARB legal aspect of it. It is an absolute hassle to get registration for a car in the States (especially Cali) as it is. Adding illegal things is just asking for it. Some say what the hey and do it. I have other friends that put their OEM setup back in once every 2 years, but I'm not ready to go there. Mostly for the sensor reason. I hate CELs with a passion.
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Okay brother, we are finally on the same page. You are asking why the outlet port on the headers isn't wider?
I believe that doing what you are presenting would gain you the same results as you would with a long header, since it would have to be pipe past the header. You could go race cats, but that is still a huge issue when it is done on the primary cats in California. Plus, dialing in the sensor after that becomes a nightmare.
What I think you are missing is the CARB legal aspect of it. It is an absolute hassle to get registration for a car in the States (especially Cali) as it is. Adding illegal things is just asking for it. Some say what the hey and do it. I have other friends that put their OEM setup back in once every 2 years, but I'm not ready to go there. Mostly for the sensor reason. I hate CELs with a passion.
I believe that doing what you are presenting would gain you the same results as you would with a long header, since it would have to be pipe past the header. You could go race cats, but that is still a huge issue when it is done on the primary cats in California. Plus, dialing in the sensor after that becomes a nightmare.
What I think you are missing is the CARB legal aspect of it. It is an absolute hassle to get registration for a car in the States (especially Cali) as it is. Adding illegal things is just asking for it. Some say what the hey and do it. I have other friends that put their OEM setup back in once every 2 years, but I'm not ready to go there. Mostly for the sensor reason. I hate CELs with a passion.
grazie, Fratello ... for the proper term of that thing: OUTLET PORT!
let 's stay at this issue (still for a while .. then, will go to our Sylvesters).
so.. let give for certain that a large outlet port is more performing than a restricted one (maybe not to the extent you say that short header w/large port = long header).
If that is true, we would see a better performance of Kleemann vs Renntech, ok? spit some DATA, please!
.. here we are, back to the thread title!
-after that, we could wonder: how much large the port is better?
- still subsequently we could go to Cats.. (you mean that with Kleemann 200 cells the check engine lights on?)
btw, I don't mind too much about carb... Off-road use only
ps: here, main regulatory issue is not the oem one, but overpass the test every two years .. but, yes, if you are found racing with other bros in the street, you will be forwarded to inspection and have documents back with the car back to stock, too
.. this is the reason for "stealthy" ... no pol would ever wonder a modded 55 ... it 'd sound too crazy
VISUAL inspection on cars: it' s simply great .. I didn't hear about that since I was fourteen .. when we were usual to file our 19 (mm) carburettor ... to undetect it from the stock legal 14
.. even a visually impaired bob could
Last edited by dyno; Dec 14, 2007 at 11:02 AM.
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grazie, Fratello ... for the proper term of that thing: OUTLET PORT!
let 's stay at this issue (still for a while .. then, will go to our Sylvesters).
so.. let give for certain that a large outlet port is more performing than a restricted one (maybe not to the extent you say that short header w/large port = long header).
If that is true, we would see a better performance of Kleemann vs Renntech, ok? spit some DATA, please!
.. here we are, back to the thread title!
-after that, we could wonder: how much large the port is better?
- still subsequently we could go to Cats.. (you mean that with Kleemann 200 cells the check engine lights on?)
btw, I don't mind too much about carb... Off-road use only
ps: here, main regulatory issue is not the oem one, but overpass the test every two years .. but, yes, if you are found racing with other bros in the street, you will be forwarded to inspection and have documents back with the car back to stock, too
.. this is the reason for "stealthy" ... no pol would ever wonder a modded 55 ... it 'd sound too crazy
VISUAL inspection on cars: it' s simply great .. I didn't hear about that since I was fourteen .. when we were usual to file our 19 (mm) carburettor ... to undetect it from the stock legal 14 .. even a visually impaired bob could
let 's stay at this issue (still for a while .. then, will go to our Sylvesters).
so.. let give for certain that a large outlet port is more performing than a restricted one (maybe not to the extent you say that short header w/large port = long header).
If that is true, we would see a better performance of Kleemann vs Renntech, ok? spit some DATA, please!
.. here we are, back to the thread title!
-after that, we could wonder: how much large the port is better?
- still subsequently we could go to Cats.. (you mean that with Kleemann 200 cells the check engine lights on?)
btw, I don't mind too much about carb... Off-road use only
ps: here, main regulatory issue is not the oem one, but overpass the test every two years .. but, yes, if you are found racing with other bros in the street, you will be forwarded to inspection and have documents back with the car back to stock, too
.. this is the reason for "stealthy" ... no pol would ever wonder a modded 55 ... it 'd sound too crazy
VISUAL inspection on cars: it' s simply great .. I didn't hear about that since I was fourteen .. when we were usual to file our 19 (mm) carburettor ... to undetect it from the stock legal 14
.. even a visually impaired bob couldIt makes no difference what your port size is IF it is IMMEDIATELY going into the cat, which is what dictates the diameter of the "Outlet Port". The two will simply not match up. Either you open up the cat OR you make your "Outlet Port" smaller to match.
Using a race cat as your primary does run into CELs quite often. It is an art to set the sensor in the proper spot and orientation to mimic what the ECU expects. This is why I say that the shorty with the larger "outlet port" is no different than a long tube, since you would need to basically fab the shorty into a longy.
This discussion is really mute. We have different markets. Here CARB is king. When you get caught racing, you get a ticket or go to jail. There is no major inspection or anything. That is why we must be CARB legal. To get a tag you have to show that the car meets specs. Can I get around it? Sure? Is 10HP worth all of that headache, money, and extra install hassle? Not yet.
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I believe most headers (Kleemann, RennTech, etc.) will pass CA emissions on the tail pipe test. Most reputable Tuners do their homework. Changes to the intake and software have more of an affect than the exhaust side (not including removing Cats). The issue is if the manufactures take the time to get a CARB exemption number so it will pass the visual part of the test.
i.e. At Dinan we had our supercharged 540 get smog tested and the independent test shop / technician in the Bay Area did not notice the BMW had the blower. The tail pipe emissions were clean, however; we hadn’t received the CARB exemption number yet. It passed. It may be worth asking your Tuner of choice if they plan on going through the CA process for the exemption.
i.e. At Dinan we had our supercharged 540 get smog tested and the independent test shop / technician in the Bay Area did not notice the BMW had the blower. The tail pipe emissions were clean, however; we hadn’t received the CARB exemption number yet. It passed. It may be worth asking your Tuner of choice if they plan on going through the CA process for the exemption.
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grazie, Fratello ... for the proper term of that thing: OUTLET PORT!
let 's stay at this issue (still for a while .. then, will go to our Sylvesters).
so.. let give for certain that a large outlet port is more performing than a restricted one (maybe not to the extent you say that short header w/large port = long header).
If that is true, we would see a better performance of Kleemann vs Renntech, ok? spit some DATA, please!
.. here we are, back to the thread title!
-after that, we could wonder: how much large the port is better?
- still subsequently we could go to Cats.. (you mean that with Kleemann 200 cells the check engine lights on?)
btw, I don't mind too much about carb... Off-road use only
ps: here, main regulatory issue is not the oem one, but overpass the test every two years .. but, yes, if you are found racing with other bros in the street, you will be forwarded to inspection and have documents back with the car back to stock, too
.. this is the reason for "stealthy" ... no pol would ever wonder a modded 55 ... it 'd sound too crazy
VISUAL inspection on cars: it' s simply great .. I didn't hear about that since I was fourteen .. when we were usual to file our 19 (mm) carburettor ... to undetect it from the stock legal 14 .. even a visually impaired bob could
let 's stay at this issue (still for a while .. then, will go to our Sylvesters).
so.. let give for certain that a large outlet port is more performing than a restricted one (maybe not to the extent you say that short header w/large port = long header).
If that is true, we would see a better performance of Kleemann vs Renntech, ok? spit some DATA, please!
.. here we are, back to the thread title!
-after that, we could wonder: how much large the port is better?
- still subsequently we could go to Cats.. (you mean that with Kleemann 200 cells the check engine lights on?)
btw, I don't mind too much about carb... Off-road use only
ps: here, main regulatory issue is not the oem one, but overpass the test every two years .. but, yes, if you are found racing with other bros in the street, you will be forwarded to inspection and have documents back with the car back to stock, too
.. this is the reason for "stealthy" ... no pol would ever wonder a modded 55 ... it 'd sound too crazy
VISUAL inspection on cars: it' s simply great .. I didn't hear about that since I was fourteen .. when we were usual to file our 19 (mm) carburettor ... to undetect it from the stock legal 14
.. even a visually impaired bob could
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cls 55 or FIAT Coupe T20v-6speed
It makes no difference what your port size is IF it is IMMEDIATELY going into the cat, which is what dictates the diameter of the "Outlet Port". The two will simply not match up. Either you open up the cat OR you make your "Outlet Port" smaller to match.
. Here CARB is king. When you get caught racing, you get a ticket or go to jail. There is no major inspection or anything. That is why we must be CARB legal. To get a tag you have to show that the car meets specs. Can I get around it? Sure? Is 10HP worth all of that headache, money, and extra install hassle? Not yet.
. Here CARB is king. When you get caught racing, you get a ticket or go to jail. There is no major inspection or anything. That is why we must be CARB legal. To get a tag you have to show that the car meets specs. Can I get around it? Sure? Is 10HP worth all of that headache, money, and extra install hassle? Not yet.
really feel confused
OK, let it be Matrix
therefore, even if without supporting data, your answer is 10 HP less for Renn vs Kleemann+race cats.
my doubt is.. even Renntech+race cats could perhaps gain those 10 HP
therefore, ....if it were that Kleemann w/stock cat = Renntech ??
from a technical point of view, that is my first interest here, this would mean GOING LARGER with PORT OUTLET IS NOT EFFECTIVE
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cls 55 or FIAT Coupe T20v-6speed
I believe most headers (Kleemann, RennTech, etc.) will pass CA emissions on the tail pipe test. Most reputable Tuners do their homework. Changes to the intake and software have more of an affect than the exhaust side (not including removing Cats). The issue is if the manufactures take the time to get a CARB exemption number so it will pass the visual part of the test.
i.e. At Dinan we had our supercharged 540 get smog tested and the independent test shop / technician in the Bay Area did not notice the BMW had the blower. The tail pipe emissions were clean, however; we hadn’t received the CARB exemption number yet. It passed. It may be worth asking your Tuner of choice if they plan on going through the CA process for the exemption.
i.e. At Dinan we had our supercharged 540 get smog tested and the independent test shop / technician in the Bay Area did not notice the BMW had the blower. The tail pipe emissions were clean, however; we hadn’t received the CARB exemption number yet. It passed. It may be worth asking your Tuner of choice if they plan on going through the CA process for the exemption.
.. I understand it's an admission/renewal test that is made by authorized, even private, "technicians" upon whose decision you are hung?
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E55
I believe most headers (Kleemann, RennTech, etc.) will pass CA emissions on the tail pipe test. Most reputable Tuners do their homework. Changes to the intake and software have more of an affect than the exhaust side (not including removing Cats). The issue is if the manufactures take the time to get a CARB exemption number so it will pass the visual part of the test.
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In California you have independent shops / contractors to the State to perform emission testing. They also have a State run test centers that are called "Referees". The CA DMV will notify you if your vehicle has to go see a Referee for your tag renewal otherwise you can go to an independent shop that is Smog certified.
Both. The decision is made by the test machine for tail pipe emissions and they count on the shops for the visual part of the test. The test machine sends your results directly to DMV.
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[/IMG]
I agree completely. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
My Dinan example was to show that some of these independent smog shops don't really know what they are looking at. They passed a vehicle that had a supercharger mounted to the front of the engine. With that said, Dinan did go through the process to get the exemption but that took about a year to receive their CARB number.[IMG]
It is difficult to see the Kleemann headers on the E63 topside (very tight space) or tell if they are not factory.
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=120062&d=1197661615[/IMG]
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...1&d=1197661615
My Dinan example was to show that some of these independent smog shops don't really know what they are looking at. They passed a vehicle that had a supercharger mounted to the front of the engine. With that said, Dinan did go through the process to get the exemption but that took about a year to receive their CARB number.[IMG]
It is difficult to see the Kleemann headers on the E63 topside (very tight space) or tell if they are not factory.
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=120062&d=1197661615[/IMG]
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...1&d=1197661615
Last edited by JKK; Dec 14, 2007 at 02:57 PM.
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cls 55 or FIAT Coupe T20v-6speed
California Air Resource Board (CARB). They are like the watch dog for CA emissions.
In California you have independent shops / contractors to the State to perform emission testing. They also have a State run test centers that are called "Referees". The CA DMV will notify you if your vehicle has to go see a Referee for your tag renewal otherwise you can go to an independent shop that is Smog certified.
Both. The decision is made by the test machine for tail pipe emissions and they count on the shops for the visual part of the test. The test machine sends your results directly to DMV.
In California you have independent shops / contractors to the State to perform emission testing. They also have a State run test centers that are called "Referees". The CA DMV will notify you if your vehicle has to go see a Referee for your tag renewal otherwise you can go to an independent shop that is Smog certified.
Both. The decision is made by the test machine for tail pipe emissions and they count on the shops for the visual part of the test. The test machine sends your results directly to DMV.
but, ... this is still Matrix ..or Referees aren't human being? ..if so, there will certainly be those for which is enough give the vehicle certificate and .. have everything done without going there ...
can we go back to the issue LARGER HEADER'S OUTLET PORT IS EFFECTIVE OR NOT?
Last edited by dyno; Dec 14, 2007 at 05:09 PM.
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look, we have exactly the same, except that ... our DMV will notify you
but, ... this is still Matrix ..or Referees aren't human being? ..if so, there will certainly be those for which is enough give the vehicle certificate and .. have everything done without going there ...
can we go back to the issue LARGER HEADER'S OUTLET PORT IS EFFECTIVE OR NOT?
but, ... this is still Matrix ..or Referees aren't human being? ..if so, there will certainly be those for which is enough give the vehicle certificate and .. have everything done without going there ...
can we go back to the issue LARGER HEADER'S OUTLET PORT IS EFFECTIVE OR NOT?
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cls 55 or FIAT Coupe T20v-6speed
what we can say, till now, based on feedback received is that:
* till hard upgrades (mods in engine's Head and moving parts) are not concerned, NO PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT IS ACHIEVED BY ENLARGENING THE HEADER'S OUTLET PORT TO DOWNPIPE.
.. should anybody supply data for a Renntech+ race cats to compare with a Kleemann's; or for a Kleemann+ stock cats to compare with a Renntech alone,
above resuld could be updated.
thanks
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Jangy, .. this forum is for me like a Paradise of mods .. so, what is: MATRIX?!?
really feel confused
OK, let it be Matrix
therefore, even if without supporting data, your answer is 10 HP less for Renn vs Kleemann+race cats.
my doubt is.. even Renntech+race cats could perhaps gain those 10 HP
therefore, ....if it were that Kleemann w/stock cat = Renntech ??
from a technical point of view, that is my first interest here, this would mean GOING LARGER with PORT OUTLET IS NOT EFFECTIVE
really feel confused
OK, let it be Matrix
therefore, even if without supporting data, your answer is 10 HP less for Renn vs Kleemann+race cats.
my doubt is.. even Renntech+race cats could perhaps gain those 10 HP
therefore, ....if it were that Kleemann w/stock cat = Renntech ??
from a technical point of view, that is my first interest here, this would mean GOING LARGER with PORT OUTLET IS NOT EFFECTIVE
I think I get what you are asking, but I have no answer.You literally want someone to try to match up a shorty (small outlet) with a cat that has a larger outlet and tell you what the power gains are? That is getting a little far fetched. I'm already telling you that GOING LARGER ON THE PORT OUTLET IS NOT an issue. I already gave you the only possible scenarios, since you CAN NOT match up the RennTech headers to open race cats, so why even go there? Why would anybody buy shorty headers, if they plan to cut the cats anyway? Why not use the extra room that they get from the cut to tune the headers? I simply do not get the point.
