Jrocket

True,the apperance is very close.Im wanitng to see an actual approved Ca smog header.So far no luck.

You ready to hit the track again Phil?

deaguero

JRocket: I replied to MB Forever and said I possibly could make a late January event.
I definitely would like to hook up with all of you again. I have sent a card to Santa asking for A Quaiffe LSD, vrus Pulley and Drag radials!!! (:

Jrocket

You better be a good boy then!

110motoring

+1

dyno

thanks you for your pics ... but I'm a bit confused by first pics, it seems the hole inside is small..

dyno

Ok,
any further customer with Kleemann's?

dyno

thanks,

NO, Kleemann is a Short with Large diameter. Let aside now the Cat issue.

issue is: WHAT IF with A SHORT+ LARGE COLLECTOR DIAMETER vs a SHORT+STOCK COLL.DIA. ?

I wouldn't speak about Long Header because it 's a quite different story, a very psycologically hard mod for a Merceds
(anexample: I like very much how Jackpro's car sounds now ,, should it have long perhaps 'd be faster but 'd not like it).

Rock

This discussion has been done a few times. Have you seen this thread?
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...hlight=headers

dyno

ok, thank you very much, i'll read it.

meanwhile,.. don't you remember how the story ended with?

jangy

Okay brother, we are finally on the same page. You are asking why the outlet port on the headers isn't wider?

I believe that doing what you are presenting would gain you the same results as you would with a long header, since it would have to be pipe past the header. You could go race cats, but that is still a huge issue when it is done on the primary cats in California. Plus, dialing in the sensor after that becomes a nightmare.

What I think you are missing is the CARB legal aspect of it. It is an absolute hassle to get registration for a car in the States (especially Cali) as it is. Adding illegal things is just asking for it. Some say what the hey and do it. I have other friends that put their OEM setup back in once every 2 years, but I'm not ready to go there. Mostly for the sensor reason. I hate CELs with a passion.

dyno

grazie, Fratello ... for the proper term of that thing: OUTLET PORT!

let 's stay at this issue (still for a while .. then, will go to our Sylvesters).

so.. let give for certain that a large outlet port is more performing than a restricted one (maybe not to the extent you say that short header w/large port = long header).
If that is true, we would see a better performance of Kleemann vs Renntech, ok? spit some DATA, please!
.. here we are, back to the thread title!

-after that, we could wonder: how much large the port is better?

- still subsequently we could go to Cats.. (you mean that with Kleemann 200 cells the check engine lights on?)

btw, I don't mind too much about carb... Off-road use only

ps: here, main regulatory issue is not the oem one, but overpass the test every two years .. but, yes, if you are found racing with other bros in the street, you will be forwarded to inspection and have documents back with the car back to stock, too
.. this is the reason for "stealthy" ... no pol would ever wonder a modded 55 ... it 'd sound too crazy
VISUAL inspection on cars: it' s simply great .. I didn't hear about that since I was fourteen .. when we were usual to file our 19 (mm) carburettor ... to undetect it from the stock legal 14 .. even a visually impaired bob could

jangy

It makes no difference what your port size is IF it is IMMEDIATELY going into the cat, which is what dictates the diameter of the "Outlet Port". The two will simply not match up. Either you open up the cat OR you make your "Outlet Port" smaller to match.
Using a race cat as your primary does run into CELs quite often. It is an art to set the sensor in the proper spot and orientation to mimic what the ECU expects. This is why I say that the shorty with the larger "outlet port" is no different than a long tube, since you would need to basically fab the shorty into a longy.

This discussion is really mute. We have different markets. Here CARB is king. When you get caught racing, you get a ticket or go to jail. There is no major inspection or anything. That is why we must be CARB legal. To get a tag you have to show that the car meets specs. Can I get around it? Sure? Is 10HP worth all of that headache, money, and extra install hassle? Not yet.

JKK

I believe most headers (Kleemann, RennTech, etc.) will pass CA emissions on the tail pipe test. Most reputable Tuners do their homework. Changes to the intake and software have more of an affect than the exhaust side (not including removing Cats). The issue is if the manufactures take the time to get a CARB exemption number so it will pass the visual part of the test.

i.e. At Dinan we had our supercharged 540 get smog tested and the independent test shop / technician in the Bay Area did not notice the BMW had the blower. The tail pipe emissions were clean, however; we hadn’t received the CARB exemption number yet. It passed. It may be worth asking your Tuner of choice if they plan on going through the CA process for the exemption.

JKK

On the E63 headers with cats, Kleemann re-positions the O2 sensors due to the added flow. They also manipulate the engine management software. I don't know if the factory software adaptations have enough range to accommodate. We have had no check engine light on the E63 after several thousand miles.

dyno

Jangy, .. this forum is for me like a Paradise of mods .. so, what is: MATRIX?!?
really feel confused
OK, let it be Matrix

therefore, even if without supporting data, your answer is 10 HP less for Renn vs Kleemann+race cats.

my doubt is.. even Renntech+race cats could perhaps gain those 10 HP

therefore, ....if it were that Kleemann w/stock cat = Renntech ??

from a technical point of view, that is my first interest here, this would mean GOING LARGER with PORT OUTLET IS NOT EFFECTIVE

dyno

what CARB stands for, please
.. I understand it's an admission/renewal test that is made by authorized, even private, "technicians" upon whose decision you are hung?

Jrocket

Im aware of that,passing the snif test means nothing if the visual fails.

JKK

California Air Resource Board (CARB). They are like the watch dog for CA emissions.
In California you have independent shops / contractors to the State to perform emission testing. They also have a State run test centers that are called "Referees". The CA DMV will notify you if your vehicle has to go see a Referee for your tag renewal otherwise you can go to an independent shop that is Smog certified.

Both. The decision is made by the test machine for tail pipe emissions and they count on the shops for the visual part of the test. The test machine sends your results directly to DMV.

JKK

[/IMG]I agree completely. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

My Dinan example was to show that some of these independent smog shops don't really know what they are looking at. They passed a vehicle that had a supercharger mounted to the front of the engine. With that said, Dinan did go through the process to get the exemption but that took about a year to receive their CARB number.[IMG]

It is difficult to see the Kleemann headers on the E63 topside (very tight space) or tell if they are not factory.

https://mbworld.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=120062&d=1197661615[/IMG]
https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...1&d=1197661615

Goatspeed

What you're looking at is the O2 sensor that mounts to the side of the Header/Manifold...I believe...

dyno

.. and where is gone the second after cat sensor?

dyno

look, we have exactly the same, except that ... our DMV will notify you
but, ... this is still Matrix ..or Referees aren't human being? ..if so, there will certainly be those for which is enough give the vehicle certificate and .. have everything done without going there ...


can we go back to the issue LARGER HEADER'S OUTLET PORT IS EFFECTIVE OR NOT?

JKK

Larger is effective as long as the header is tuned. A smaller "outlet port" will create more friction on the gasses and add back pressure reducing peak power.

dyno

hi, this is only common belief not backed by any data, nor subjective feeling, to date!

what we can say, till now, based on feedback received is that:

* till hard upgrades (mods in engine's Head and moving parts) are not concerned, NO PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT IS ACHIEVED BY ENLARGENING THE HEADER'S OUTLET PORT TO DOWNPIPE.

.. should anybody supply data for a Renntech+ race cats to compare with a Kleemann's; or for a Kleemann+ stock cats to compare with a Renntech alone,
above resuld could be updated.

thanks

jangy

I think I get what you are asking, but I have no answer.You literally want someone to try to match up a shorty (small outlet) with a cat that has a larger outlet and tell you what the power gains are? That is getting a little far fetched. I'm already telling you that GOING LARGER ON THE PORT OUTLET IS NOT an issue. I already gave you the only possible scenarios, since you CAN NOT match up the RennTech headers to open race cats, so why even go there? Why would anybody buy shorty headers, if they plan to cut the cats anyway? Why not use the extra room that they get from the cut to tune the headers? I simply do not get the point.