AMG horsepower wars over....
01-23-2008, 07:38 PM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
Posts: 7,092
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
10 Posts
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
I feel like I finally found out the Mrs has been cheating.
You knew it all along, but it feels good to finally hear it straight up.
I need a drink and time to let this all soak in.
I guess my letter writing campaign would have been a waste of time after all.
You knew it all along, but it feels good to finally hear it straight up.
I need a drink and time to let this all soak in.
I guess my letter writing campaign would have been a waste of time after all.
01-23-2008, 07:40 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: California, USA
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
So, are you guys saying that even though Audi will make the TT V10 RS6 and BMW will make the TT V10 M5, Mercedes will continue to stay with the 500 hp NA 6.2L engine?????
It's just very hard to believe
It's just very hard to believe
01-23-2008, 07:42 PM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
2005 E55 ///AMG
Hmm.. that's weird... Coincidence??....
I just got a call from some German speaking guy asking me if I would be willing to build them a 6.3TT engine for their new car coming out... It was hard to make out what he was saying.. i heard bits and pieces of english words.... AMG..... Stuttgart.... 6.3.... Twin Turbo .... VRP .... build .... it.....
I guess they want to outsource???
There is a 6.3TT coming... Dont you worry... It will just have a different badge on the back, that's all..
I just got a call from some German speaking guy asking me if I would be willing to build them a 6.3TT engine for their new car coming out... It was hard to make out what he was saying.. i heard bits and pieces of english words.... AMG..... Stuttgart.... 6.3.... Twin Turbo .... VRP .... build .... it.....
I guess they want to outsource???
There is a 6.3TT coming... Dont you worry... It will just have a different badge on the back, that's all..
01-23-2008, 07:45 PM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
I agree. Don't see how this is "bad". Even Ferrari has determined that their future lies in light weight materials, improved efficiency, etc.
If you were told you can keep the same amount of HP but have a lighter car, just as comfortable, and a much more dynamic driving experience, you wouldn't want it?
If you were told you can keep the same amount of HP but have a lighter car, just as comfortable, and a much more dynamic driving experience, you wouldn't want it?
This is "bad", b/c AMG is saying it'll play BMW M's game from now on. AMG cars always have been a luxury car with auto tranny & unreal amt's of power & torque. "f##k handling, let's bury em with massive power" approach. but now, it sounds like AMG wants to build BMW M copycats, and AMG will never come close/catch up to ///M.
01-23-2008, 07:56 PM
#31
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: East Bay Area, CA
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 20 Likes
on
9 Posts
2013 SL 550 (Previously 2012 Porsche Panamera Turbo-S, 2015 Tesla P85D, 2007 S600, 2005 E55 AMG)
This is "bad", b/c AMG is saying it'll play BMW M's game from now on. AMG cars always have been a luxury car with auto tranny & unreal amt's of power & torque. "f##k handling, let's bury em with massive power" approach. but now, it sounds like AMG wants to build BMW M copycats, and AMG will never come close/catch up to ///M.
Chris
01-23-2008, 09:02 PM
#32
Super Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 701
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
04 E55, 12 GL 450(wife)
AMG throwing in the towel?
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...power-war-over
Someone tell Audi and Cadillac!
It does though feel there is a sea-change slowly occurring... perhaps we really are starting to see the last gasp of over increasing HP numbers in volume sedan models at least? It was never going to be sustainable indefinitely...
Chris
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...power-war-over
Someone tell Audi and Cadillac!
It does though feel there is a sea-change slowly occurring... perhaps we really are starting to see the last gasp of over increasing HP numbers in volume sedan models at least? It was never going to be sustainable indefinitely...
Chris
01-23-2008, 11:16 PM
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Don't believe everything you read.
That sounds like politics talking...... I can imagine EU companies are under incredible green pressure right now.
If BMW and Audi continue big HP numbers I seriously doubt that Mercedes is going to just walk away.
AMG has a lead in HP and TQ. A focus on other areas may not be a bad thing....
That sounds like politics talking...... I can imagine EU companies are under incredible green pressure right now.
If BMW and Audi continue big HP numbers I seriously doubt that Mercedes is going to just walk away.
AMG has a lead in HP and TQ. A focus on other areas may not be a bad thing....
01-23-2008, 11:17 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
Couple points. I will get flammed for insulting the M113 motor but here I go.
The M113 was 30% cheaper to make than the M119 it replaced. It used cheaper castings for the block, the rods, pistons, crank etc. The M119 made more power and tq for a given displacement and it sounds light years better as well. The hallow cam shafts of the M113 make so much sound that they sound like they are 100k miles old when new. The M119 was SILENT at idle compared to the M113.
Now the M113k motor had upgraded internals but the budget to upgrade to AMG spec was very low. The blower at cost is what less than 1k? The marginal cost to go from M113 5.0 to M113k 5.5 was not that massive.
Now the 6.2L motor was built in house and shares no design with the 550 motor seen in the rest of the mb line. So the design, testing, and production costs are allocated over a much smaller number of units making the per unit cost far higher for the 6.2L unit. Plus the tappets in the 6.2L motor are more costly than a conventional valve train system plus there are twice the valves and twice the cam shafts when compared to the M113.
Now the TT 63 never came out because it was so costly to make. The original plan was for a 63 TT to be out long ago and the block, head, and other internals are made to withstand the stress of a 600+ hp motor. But the motor was so much more costly to make that adding turbos, intercoolers, additional cooling etc made the TT version to costly to bring to market.
There is a TT V8 coming but its not going to be a 6.2L motor with turbos hanging off the side like we all hope and dream for.
The M113 was 30% cheaper to make than the M119 it replaced. It used cheaper castings for the block, the rods, pistons, crank etc. The M119 made more power and tq for a given displacement and it sounds light years better as well. The hallow cam shafts of the M113 make so much sound that they sound like they are 100k miles old when new. The M119 was SILENT at idle compared to the M113.
Now the M113k motor had upgraded internals but the budget to upgrade to AMG spec was very low. The blower at cost is what less than 1k? The marginal cost to go from M113 5.0 to M113k 5.5 was not that massive.
Now the 6.2L motor was built in house and shares no design with the 550 motor seen in the rest of the mb line. So the design, testing, and production costs are allocated over a much smaller number of units making the per unit cost far higher for the 6.2L unit. Plus the tappets in the 6.2L motor are more costly than a conventional valve train system plus there are twice the valves and twice the cam shafts when compared to the M113.
Now the TT 63 never came out because it was so costly to make. The original plan was for a 63 TT to be out long ago and the block, head, and other internals are made to withstand the stress of a 600+ hp motor. But the motor was so much more costly to make that adding turbos, intercoolers, additional cooling etc made the TT version to costly to bring to market.
There is a TT V8 coming but its not going to be a 6.2L motor with turbos hanging off the side like we all hope and dream for.
01-23-2008, 11:57 PM
#37
MBWorld Fanatic!
Interesting and makes some sense as you can only chase power for so long. They need to keep the current engines, add a better suspension, and get the weight down. Imagine an aluminum C63 that weighed in at 3600lbs...better fuel economy, faster acceleration, and better handling, not to mention more exotic.
I personally think AMG gave in to the masses when the 55K motors were phased out and sales reflect it. When I bought my C36 AMG, it was a special car for the time and they were very rare. Now AMG cars are becoming a dime a dozen like the Porsche turbo concept. When I owned my 930 it was special, when I owned my 996 GT3, it was reasonably rare and special. Now there are 996/997 turbos and 997 GT3s everywhere as they cater to the masses, not the die hard enthusiast. The M and S cars have suffered the same plight.
It will be interesting to see where this is all headed in the few years.
I personally think AMG gave in to the masses when the 55K motors were phased out and sales reflect it. When I bought my C36 AMG, it was a special car for the time and they were very rare. Now AMG cars are becoming a dime a dozen like the Porsche turbo concept. When I owned my 930 it was special, when I owned my 996 GT3, it was reasonably rare and special. Now there are 996/997 turbos and 997 GT3s everywhere as they cater to the masses, not the die hard enthusiast. The M and S cars have suffered the same plight.
It will be interesting to see where this is all headed in the few years.
01-24-2008, 12:05 AM
#38
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sin City
Posts: 1,862
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
3 Posts
2005 E55 AMG - - 2005 SL55 AMG - - - - - - 2006 SLK55 AMG - - - - - - 2013 Ducati Diavel AMG -
The AMG Horsepower War is NOT Over... 
We Have AMGs and we will Always Be at War!
For GOD Sake Men, Stand Up and Claim Your Ground!
We just have to stay Ahead of the Game...
Modify, Modify, then ReModify...
We Have AMGs and we will Always Be at War!
For GOD Sake Men, Stand Up and Claim Your Ground!
We just have to stay Ahead of the Game...
Modify, Modify, then ReModify...
01-24-2008, 12:33 AM
#40
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
02 ML320 Sport, 04 350z,06 E350 4matic
This is "bad", b/c AMG is saying it'll play BMW M's game from now on. AMG cars always have been a luxury car with auto tranny & unreal amt's of power & torque. "f##k handling, let's bury em with massive power" approach. but now, it sounds like AMG wants to build BMW M copycats, and AMG will never come close/catch up to ///M.
Maybe MB should put that in a marketing campaign. We all know that BMW has been gaining on MB for a while now. What that says is that the consumer likes the game that BMW is playing. If MB wants to stay ahead they have to not only beat BMW at the game it set but do it with MB class. Only then will the consumer read positive reviews of MB beating BMWs and feel justified for ponying up the cash.
01-24-2008, 02:08 AM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
01-24-2008, 06:59 AM
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
This is "bad", b/c AMG is saying it'll play BMW M's game from now on. AMG cars always have been a luxury car with auto tranny & unreal amt's of power & torque. "f##k handling, let's bury em with massive power" approach. but now, it sounds like AMG wants to build BMW M copycats, and AMG will never come close/catch up to ///M.
BRING BACK THE SUPERCHARGERS AMG
See yeah
01-24-2008, 09:46 AM
#43
Senior Member
The E55 is the "working man's" race car: commute to/from work; low-rpm blast past the traffic to find the "safe bubble of emptiness" on the streets/highway; "vacation roadster" at three digits speed on the open highway, and the frequent occasional pleasure cruise through the "horse farm" country side with mild "twisties."
I get to enjoy this car's magic every time I drive it, as opposed to a high RPM "true" sports car that needs to find a track-rental day to truly run hard. I get to a track once a year. I battle the masses everyday, and the "torque on demand at any rpm" is my friend.
And remember, these are all "good" problems to have.
Thanks guys. Keep rockin.
01-24-2008, 11:28 AM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: L.A., CA
Posts: 2,146
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'08 M5, '10 Land Cruiser
All you do is downshift a gear or two (yep, remember gears) and you're in the powerband at any speed. Always funny to read the views of peole who clearly haven't even driven an M5.
01-24-2008, 11:59 AM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thats always how I've felt. If you're racing or driving aggressive, you will downshift anyway. If you have an E55 and leave it in D and floor it, it will downshift so you can be at higher RPMs. Who really cares about the power under 3k? Idk, maybe its just me...
01-24-2008, 12:37 PM
#46
Out Of Control!!
01-24-2008, 12:38 PM
#47
Senior Member
Peace.
01-24-2008, 12:42 PM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
How do you down shift a gear from a STOP light
See yeah
PS: I did not own a M5, but did have a M3 and 2001 M roadster with the E46 engine
Update: Sorry Blackbenz you beat me to it my friend
01-24-2008, 12:47 PM
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
I will take a AMG over the Bmw's anyday for my hard earned money, and yeah I did own 2 Bmw's "M", until I drove a AMG that is
See yeah
Last edited by MRAMG1; 01-24-2008 at 12:49 PM.
01-24-2008, 01:58 PM
#50
MBWorld Fanatic!
Torque is useless unless you can put it to the ground The main issue with these E55's is traction; so much power your ESP light has a seizure whenever the car is really opened up. One thing to appreciate about the 63 motor is a more elastic powerband...and the fact that it is overall a tighter feeling car.
Everyone is pissing and moaning that AMG "threw in the towel" in the horsepower war. Did you guys forget the M275 V12...?
Mercedes/AMG is known for their indestructible motors. Even during its detrimental merger with Chrysler, the drivetrains still stood solid. Is it really so horrible that AMG will allocate its R&D costs to improving other facets of driving?
Everyone is pissing and moaning that AMG "threw in the towel" in the horsepower war. Did you guys forget the M275 V12...?
Mercedes/AMG is known for their indestructible motors. Even during its detrimental merger with Chrysler, the drivetrains still stood solid. Is it really so horrible that AMG will allocate its R&D costs to improving other facets of driving?
