Five Killed In A 2008 BMW M5
#276
#277
How typical in a let's sue anyone world. He was NOT a child, atleast in my mind and the governements, he was an ADULT, albeit a YOUNG adult. But at 19 you can serve and DIE for our GREAT country in ANY armed services. I guess they should also sue BMW for making a car that can go faster than the legal speed limit in our country as well.
What a crock
See yeah
Again, My heart and prayers go out for the surviving family memebers.
What a crock
See yeah
Again, My heart and prayers go out for the surviving family memebers.
And while ymmv, I don't think it would be a "crock" to sue someone for illegally providing alcohol to an underage driver who was subsequentially the cause of in a fatal accident. It it was my kid that was wrapped around a tree, I'd damn sure want whomever it was that served that driver alcohol to pay, and pay bigtime.
Last edited by Improviz; 02-05-2008 at 11:40 AM.
#279
MBWorld Fanatic!
And while ymmv, I don't think it would be a "crock" to sue someone for illegally providing alcohol to an underage driver who was subsequentially the cause of in a fatal accident. It it was my kid that was wrapped around a tree, I'd damn sure want whomever it was that served that driver alcohol to pay, and pay bigtime.
1. Who's party was it?
2. Was the kid forciably held down and made to consume alcohol?
This is/was a HORRIABLE experience to say the least for all of the families. But when all is said and done, it was the ADULT DRIVERS ACTIONS that caused this event. Not the parents, the governement, the neibhors party, etc, etc. YES , ALL of them may have aided the incident in one form or another. BUT HE DID GET BEHIND THE WHEEL, atleast I beleive NOT under gun point as of yet. HE WAS TRESPASSING, HE WAS DRINKING, and HE WAS SPEEDING.
I have a son, and he will learn to respect driving/alcohol/parents/pepole/etc, etc.
EVERYBODY is responsiable for his or her OWN actions, IMHO. Sorry that we disagree so strongly.
see yeah
My heart and prayers to the families
#280
This has no relevance. An illegal act is an illegal act, regardless of where it was commissioned.
So, by this logic, drug dealers should not be held accountable for illegally selling drugs to teenagers either, right? After all, the drug dealer did not force the kid to take the drugs!
...actions which may have been fueled by alcohol that was ILLEGALLY PROVIDED....
Yes, I agree: EVERYONE is responsible for HIS OWN ACTIONS, INCLUDING THOSE WHO ILLEGALLY SERVED UNDERAGE PERSONS ALCOHOL if this turns out to be the case.
Or are you arguing that only CERTAIN people should be held responsible for CERTAIN actions?
You can't have it both ways.
So, by this logic, drug dealers should not be held accountable for illegally selling drugs to teenagers either, right? After all, the drug dealer did not force the kid to take the drugs!
that caused this event. Not the parents, the governement, the neibhors party, etc, etc. YES , ALL of them may have aided the incident in one form or another. BUT HE DID GET BEHIND THE WHEEL, atleast I beleive NOT under gun point as of yet. HE WAS TRESPASSING, HE WAS DRINKING, and HE WAS SPEEDING.
I have a son, and he will learn to respect driving/alcohol/parents/pepole/etc, etc.
EVERYBODY is responsiable for his or her OWN actions, IMHO. Sorry that we disagree so strongly.
I have a son, and he will learn to respect driving/alcohol/parents/pepole/etc, etc.
EVERYBODY is responsiable for his or her OWN actions, IMHO. Sorry that we disagree so strongly.
Or are you arguing that only CERTAIN people should be held responsible for CERTAIN actions?
You can't have it both ways.
Last edited by Improviz; 02-05-2008 at 12:43 PM.
#282
Someone else calculated on the Ocala forum that they could have traveled that distance and dropped to about 15' above the ground (which is where they struck the final trees) with an initial velocity of 65 mph, but since they hit a fence first which probably slowed them down, I'd figure their initial velocity when they left the runway was more in the 75-85 mph range--particularly given the amount of damage to the vehicle.
But it may have been going faster than 120 before they hit the brakes....who knows how many runs they did, if brake fade was an issue, overdriven headlights/headlights off, etc....still a lot of unknowns, but at least we know more now.
Another scenario: he may have had it going substantially faster than 120, more like 150+, then braked too lightly to avoid subjecting the car/tires to an all-out stop, not realizing how long it would take to stop it from that speed (under *ideal* conditions with driver only, that car would take between 700-800 ft. to stop from 150, so tack on another 150 ft or so thanks to the extra weight). If he wasn't fully on the brakes, that portion of the braking would have left no marks; then he would have seen the end of the runway looming while still running at 120 and really gotten on them hard, by which point it would have been far too late.
Actually, this could also explain why the skid marks were so short....in any case, all of the evidence seems to point to a vast underestimation of the acceleration and braking distances involved from these speeds compared to the length of the runway.
Last edited by Improviz; 02-05-2008 at 12:51 PM.
#283
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: P'cola, FL
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'03 E55
I didn't mean to imply that there was sufficient light to pull this off successfully, rather there likely was enough light for these guys to at least consider it to reduce the chance of getting caught.
#284
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2000 ML430
"Burroughs said 120 mph was the minimum speed the car was traveling before the driver hit the brakes. He braked for 2 to 3 seconds and the car veered sideways."
Seems they're estimating on the low side just to be cautious. Additionally, this report again highlights the error of pulling on the steering wheel at the last moment.
Seems they're estimating on the low side just to be cautious. Additionally, this report again highlights the error of pulling on the steering wheel at the last moment.
#285
MBWorld Fanatic!
But then again your logic would dictate that a gun shop is responsible for crime with a gun right?
Anyway, I quit you are reading WAY tooo deep and do not see the brick wall in front of your face about ADULT actions. I leave you with my last thought of the day, are you a Democrat by chance?
See yeah
My heart and prayers go out to all of the loved ones that have to deal with this now.
Last edited by MRAMG1; 02-05-2008 at 05:40 PM.
#286
If it was for Johnny, or Sally, or Marcia, it's irrelevant: if alcohol was illegally and knowingly served to underage drinkers AT the party, then the servers comitted a crime.
IF these underage drinkers then went out and committed a crime under the influence, than the servers committed a criminal act and can be held liable.
Your second question was rhetorical in nature, and I answered it with a simple analogy, which you obviously didn't quite grasp. But I did answer it.
Which is why the FHP got the other bureau involved: they are obviously examining the evidence and considering filing charges against the adults who threw that party, which is the only possible reason for obtaining toxicology data from the passengers; they want to establish whether or not the young men had alcohol in their systems, which would be irrelevant to the crash itself, but very relevant to illegally purchasing/serving them booze.
As I said: you cannot have it both ways. If the guys in the car are responsible for their actions, then so to are the adults who (if true) served them alcohol responsible for their actions.
And, while we're asking questions, do you support adults serving alcohol to underage drinkers at parties, even without the knowledge and/or consent of said drinkers' parents?
If parents were to serve your child alcohol without your knowledge and consent, would you think that they had done anything wrong?
Last edited by Improviz; 02-05-2008 at 07:05 PM.
#287
Administrator
Thread Starter
Improviz,
As usual you make some good points but are we certain that the parents knowingly served these 18-20yo men alcohol? Yes, I understand that if they did the law was broken and they will suffer........ but, maybe these young men had fake IDs....... or had older friends that purchased the alcohol. Millions of other under-aged people get there alcohol that way and I'm sure most on this forum had a drink or two before they were 21.
I think the point that MRAMG1 was making is that these individuals were adults.... not kids and looking to blame someone else for their poor judgement is wrong (IMO).
By the time you are 18yo, our legal system expects you to know right from wrong. So if these men knowingly drank illegally and then drove an M5 150mph+, shouldn't they accept the responsibility and consequences of their behavior?
Listen, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not looking to argue but I have a hard time with this case if we're looking to blame others.
As usual you make some good points but are we certain that the parents knowingly served these 18-20yo men alcohol? Yes, I understand that if they did the law was broken and they will suffer........ but, maybe these young men had fake IDs....... or had older friends that purchased the alcohol. Millions of other under-aged people get there alcohol that way and I'm sure most on this forum had a drink or two before they were 21.
I think the point that MRAMG1 was making is that these individuals were adults.... not kids and looking to blame someone else for their poor judgement is wrong (IMO).
By the time you are 18yo, our legal system expects you to know right from wrong. So if these men knowingly drank illegally and then drove an M5 150mph+, shouldn't they accept the responsibility and consequences of their behavior?
Listen, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not looking to argue but I have a hard time with this case if we're looking to blame others.
Last edited by Rock; 02-05-2008 at 10:04 PM.
#288
Out Of Control!!
As far as the breaking distance goes, I do remember that the end of the runway that we raced on last year seemed very close when we got to the brake point. I had not trouble stopping, but I had to use so much pressure that the brakes got very hot. I think you know what I'm talking about, as yours probably did the same thing. My speed was about 135 at that time. The M5s that were there were going even faster and they stopped without going off the end of the runway.
Not trying to win any arguments, just throwing out more topics for discussion. BTW, good research, as usual.
#289
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fargo, North Dakota
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2012 Cayenne Turbo
Trying to emulate Top Gear( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfUCJwYORUE) on a puny 1.5 mile strip.
Have any of you brought your cars to 155?
You need more room than that (especially with 5 people in the car).
Tragic but stupid.
Have any of you brought your cars to 155?
You need more room than that (especially with 5 people in the car).
Tragic but stupid.
#290
Super Member
#291
Administrator
Thread Starter
#292
Hi, Rock
Certain? No. But that is a pretty small community, and there are a number of posters who have posted about this party, who claim to have first-hand knowledge, etc., and they've been pretty unequivocal. One in particular claims to have been in law enforcement in the area, and either he's a brilliant bull****ter, or he's got some pretty good knowledge of this, and he's been pretty emphatic about claiming that they were served alcohol, with full knowledge of the parents, at this party.
And again, if you read between the lines in that last article, it's kind of obvious that in changing their minds to investigate whether the passengers had alcohol in their systems, the only possible reason for this would be to proceed along this front.
Yes, *but* as we all know, alcohol impairs judgement, and given that the legal drinking age is 21, it would seem that the law thinks they're not responsible enough to drink at that age (which to me is hypocritical and stupid given that they're old enough to get drafted and killed in a war, but I don't write the laws), then if they were illegally provided with alcohol, and if a case could be made that alcohol was a contributor to this accident, then aside from the obvious criminal charges, civil charges can, and should be, an option.
I certainly wouldn't claim that the parents in question were fully responsible, but to absolve them entirely of any responsibility for (again, if these reports are true) engaging in an illegal action which impaired the driver's judgement and thus would doubtlessly contributed to the accident.
Yes, and I believe that they did, in the ultimate fashion. But shouldn't the parents in question also accept responsibility for (again, if this turns out to be true) providing the alcohol which impaired the judgement of these young men?
But why, if it is determined that the driver was impaired or drunk and that they were illegally served alcohol by parents, should the parents not pay a penalty? If these guys had been sober, they might have exercised better judgement and not gone out there in the first place.
In other words, while this wouldn't be the primary cause of the accident (obviously, not everyone who went to the party went out and got themselves killed), it could certainly be a contributor.
Even if the others did something illegal and wrong? Should there then be no punishment at all? Not even a fine?
I'm just trying to understand why you think the parents should get a pass if it turns out that they illegally served these guys alcohol.
And again, if you read between the lines in that last article, it's kind of obvious that in changing their minds to investigate whether the passengers had alcohol in their systems, the only possible reason for this would be to proceed along this front.
Yes, I understand that if they did the law was broken and they will suffer........ but, maybe these young men had fake IDs....... or had older friends that purchased the alcohol. Millions of other under-aged people get there alcohol that way and I'm sure most on this forum had a drink or two before they were 21.
I think the point that MRAMG1 was making is that these individuals were adults.... not kids and looking to blame someone else for their poor judgement is wrong (IMO).
I think the point that MRAMG1 was making is that these individuals were adults.... not kids and looking to blame someone else for their poor judgement is wrong (IMO).
I certainly wouldn't claim that the parents in question were fully responsible, but to absolve them entirely of any responsibility for (again, if these reports are true) engaging in an illegal action which impaired the driver's judgement and thus would doubtlessly contributed to the accident.
But why, if it is determined that the driver was impaired or drunk and that they were illegally served alcohol by parents, should the parents not pay a penalty? If these guys had been sober, they might have exercised better judgement and not gone out there in the first place.
In other words, while this wouldn't be the primary cause of the accident (obviously, not everyone who went to the party went out and got themselves killed), it could certainly be a contributor.
I'm just trying to understand why you think the parents should get a pass if it turns out that they illegally served these guys alcohol.
#293
Trying to emulate Top Gear( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfUCJwYORUE) on a puny 1.5 mile strip.
Have any of you brought your cars to 155?
You need more room than that (especially with 5 people in the car).
Tragic but stupid.
Have any of you brought your cars to 155?
You need more room than that (especially with 5 people in the car).
Tragic but stupid.
That's a grand total of about 1.18 miles to get from 0-150-0--under ideal conditions, with only the driver on board.
Now add 700 pounds in passengers. You've just turned it into an E39 M5 power-wise, with corresponding length increase in acceleration times, and dramatically increased braking distances as well.
And this was a 1.4 mile long runway.
If you got that vehicle to or near its maximum speed, you'd have well short of enough runway remaining to get it to a stop.
Unintentional suicide.
#294
Administrator
Thread Starter
Well, being the parent of 20yo twin males, I guess I can understand how something that starts out as well intentioned (a party) can go horribly wrong. I think I have always attempted to instill a sense of responsibility and moderation in my children but I do realize that sometimes the actions of your grown children can be out of your control.
Should parents that serve alcohol to 18-20yo be responsible for a tragic event directly related to intoxication? Yes, I have no argument or defense on that topic. I guess in this case I'm assuming............ and hoping that the parents were not aware of these students alcohol consumption before they decided to attempt the fateful high-speed runs in dad's M5.
#295
That's exactly how my outside lights work. When the high beams are on, the inside lights are also illuminated with what looks like airplane landing lights. There is not as much of a distinct cutoff like as when the low beams are on. The will illuminate road reflectors over a mile away. I haven't tested the theory, but they appear to light up enough road to not overdrive them even at some fairly high rates of speed, maybe 70, maybe 80.
As far as the breaking distance goes, I do remember that the end of the runway that we raced on last year seemed very close when we got to the brake point. I had not trouble stopping, but I had to use so much pressure that the brakes got very hot. I think you know what I'm talking about, as yours probably did the same thing.
Anyway, braking distances definitely increase in a nonlinear fashion. I am basing my estimates of braking distances for that car on the 150-0 braking by the competitors in that, most of which were in the 700-800 ft. range, with stopping times around 7-8 seconds . And those distances were with driver only, so I'd tack on another 150 ft or so due to the four passengers....
I'll tell you, those stopping distances and times are a real eye-opener. Definitely gives one a much-needed sense of perspective...you can see them for the different cars via the pulldown menu on this page:
Thanks!!
Last edited by Improviz; 02-06-2008 at 12:37 AM.
#296
I guess this is the question that really needs to be answered................
Well, being the parent of 20yo twin males, I guess I can understand how something that starts out as well intentioned (a party) can go horribly wrong. I think I have always attempted to instill a sense of responsibility and moderation in my children but I do realize that sometimes the actions of your grown children can be out of your control.
Well, being the parent of 20yo twin males, I guess I can understand how something that starts out as well intentioned (a party) can go horribly wrong. I think I have always attempted to instill a sense of responsibility and moderation in my children but I do realize that sometimes the actions of your grown children can be out of your control.
Should parents that serve alcohol to 18-20yo be responsible for a tragic event directly related to intoxication? Yes, I have no argument or defense on that topic. I guess in this case I'm assuming............ and hoping that the parents were not aware of these students alcohol consumption before they decided to attempt the fateful high-speed runs in dad's M5.
Now, obviously we don't know this, and I'm not prepared to pronounce them guilty as charged when all of the evidence isn't in, which is why I've taken great pains to say, repeatedly, "IF" they did this, etc....they are certainly innocent until proven guilty, and I, like you, hope that they weren't dumb enough to do what it is they're being accused of doing.
Time will tell....
Last edited by Improviz; 02-06-2008 at 01:31 AM.
#297
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: L.A., CA
Posts: 2,146
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
'08 M5, '10 Land Cruiser
Seriously, Improviz is bringing up some interesting facts. So if the weight if the four passengers brought the power to weight ratio down from the E60s 280bhp/ton to the E39s 236bhp/ton (Evo magazine's figures with driver, luggage and fuel) then trying to hit top speed in such a short space *and* stop again was, as you put it, "unintentional suicide" of the most tragic kind.
#298
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Potomac, MD
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
2007 SL550 - Aegean Blue; 2008 E63 Wagon - Iridium Silver
That's a big admission from an E55 owner
Seriously, Improviz is bringing up some interesting facts. So if the weight if the four passengers brought the power to weight ratio down from the E60s 280bhp/ton to the E39s 236bhp/ton (Evo magazine's figures with driver, luggage and fuel) then trying to hit top speed in such a short space *and* stop again was, as you put it, "unintentional suicide" of the most tragic kind.
Seriously, Improviz is bringing up some interesting facts. So if the weight if the four passengers brought the power to weight ratio down from the E60s 280bhp/ton to the E39s 236bhp/ton (Evo magazine's figures with driver, luggage and fuel) then trying to hit top speed in such a short space *and* stop again was, as you put it, "unintentional suicide" of the most tragic kind.
#299
Super Member
I guess this is the question that really needs to be answered................
Well, being the parent of 20yo twin males, I guess I can understand how something that starts out as well intentioned (a party) can go horribly wrong. I think I have always attempted to instill a sense of responsibility and moderation in my children but I do realize that sometimes the actions of your grown children can be out of your control.
Should parents that serve alcohol to 18-20yo be responsible for a tragic event directly related to intoxication? Yes, I have no argument or defense on that topic. I guess in this case I'm assuming............ and hoping that the parents were not aware of these students alcohol consumption before they decided to attempt the fateful high-speed runs in dad's M5.
Well, being the parent of 20yo twin males, I guess I can understand how something that starts out as well intentioned (a party) can go horribly wrong. I think I have always attempted to instill a sense of responsibility and moderation in my children but I do realize that sometimes the actions of your grown children can be out of your control.
Should parents that serve alcohol to 18-20yo be responsible for a tragic event directly related to intoxication? Yes, I have no argument or defense on that topic. I guess in this case I'm assuming............ and hoping that the parents were not aware of these students alcohol consumption before they decided to attempt the fateful high-speed runs in dad's M5.
Last edited by v8plus4; 02-06-2008 at 08:52 AM.
#300
MBWorld Fanatic!
No, I am a proud independent, who left the republican party because of its hijacking by black/white right/wrong with us/against us idealogues like you. Are you a right winger who is blinded by ideology and hypocrisy, perchance? Are you a political neophyte who grossly oversimplifies the entire 3d political spectrum into a two dimensional bipolar graph?
FACT
1. 19 year old adult, consumed alcohol
2. 19 year old drove car impaired
3. 19 year old was trespassing
4. 19 year old was speeding in excess of 100 mph
The rest well, you win, YOU'R way tooooo interested in other parties/facts/issues for me to waste any more time on my friend. Oh yeah, don't forget to vote!
See yeah
PS: And I thought this website was for information about cars