Fikse

well, that car isn't making 696HP either..... anyone can generate a graph and post it up..... they don't post real #'s for a reason....

rflow306

At the begining of the vrp cam thread there are before an after dyno's of my car. Heck Ive probably posted more dyno runs than any body else on this site. Sorry to lazy to paste the link.

The reason the afr's are of the charts has to do with dme correction, a stock e55 is pig rich on-top to control egt's. These cars are tuned from factory with long top end passes in mind ie autobahn. Before you make changes to fuel map you must first change a few of the correction tables or you will be going in circles.

Havoc

You're 2 Cents is Greatly Appreciated and I Totally Understand Where You're Coming From.
For I Can Only Speak For Myself and Perhaps My Issue is Not Only Wanting the VRP Stage 3 Heads, but Wanting It Now!
These Race Ported Head Modifications Are Just Coming Out For the 55 Kompressor and No One Really Knows The True Exact Numbers. But Come On Man, I'm Footing The Build and I'm Not Even Worried About It. An Internal Combustion Engine is Not Rocket Science! It's Just A Big Air Pump, For God Sake. It's No Secret What Makes an Internal Combustion Engine Have More Horsepower. No Worries There!
In Regards to VRPs Heads Not Being CNC Ported and that Every Head will Be Different. Remember, We Went to VRP, VRP Didn't Come to Us. This Is the Beginning and Only a Few of Us Want To Do This Mod. I'm OK With It and that's All that Matters. But I understand Why you're Not.

saman6164

The only dyno i have seen with before and after cams is a dyno where before cam showed i think 514whp and after showed 537whp. The problem is that the 514 number showed a 0.96 SAE correction and the 537whp run showed a 1.01 SAE correction. That means that at 1.00 SAE it would actually be reading ~535whp. Remember a 4% undercorrection at ~514whp is 20whp. And the 537# at 1.00 SAE correctionwould actually be 536whp Does that sound like an improvement to you? This is the dyno i am talking about


I also notice that "smoothing is set to 0" which over exaggerates numbers. If anyone has actually worked on a dyno, i can drag the smoothing from 0 to 5 on a run and change things by 50whp. As long as all runs are on the same smoothing level its ok, but it just exaggerates the numbers compared to if the smoothing was 5 where it should be.

ROCKETW19

saman6164

Yes internal combustion engines all work the same way. But trust me, if it was that easy we would all be making a 1000whp The problem is that just because someone is grinding a nice shiny hole and making the ports bigger does not mean that its actually going to perform better. Do you know how many head jobs i have seen where the flow numbers even look fine for a certain lift, but the car performs like ***. Flow dynamics is a whole different discussion.

Let me give you an example. Lets say that the following is the flow sheet from a head. This is just pure example. The customer is told, "...wow your head flows 180CFM." Customer is all happy that he has a nice flowing head. Here is the problem. It makes me laugh, cause the customer is never going to see 180CFM. Do you know why? Cause if his cam has a lift of 9.3mm (~3.66") he is only going to see 160CFM. Who cares what the head is flowing at 0.5" lift if you are never going to get there.

Whats missing from the following is the PORT VELOCITY. I see one out of 100 head jobs where the porter actually tests for this. So you might have picked up some CFMs at the higher lifts and a little bit down low, but if you lost 20% port velocity at 0.1"-0.35" then your car will drive like a dog. We do this to drag cars specifically, cause we dont care about 0.1"-0.4" of lift. The car will leave the line at 6000rpm and never drops below that. So we dont care if port velocity drops in the lower ranges. But in a street car, its a definite story.

LIFT FLOW
0.1" 100CFM
0.15" 120CFM
0.20" 130CFM
0,25" 140CFM
0.30" 150CFM
0.35" 160CFM
0,40" 175CFM
0,45" 180CFM
0,50" 185CFM


The only reason i am going thru this nauseating detail is that i want you guys to get a better understand and not just accept everything that is fed to you.

ItalianStallion

You will usually get more gains with less known and less branded tuners. That is because companies like Kleeman and Renntech come out with upgrades that took money to develop and when they are finished with their product, they sell it as nice conservative packages that will give your car a very nice respectable bump in power but will also retain stock drivability and reliability...as well as put a nice chunk of profit in the tuner's pocket.

A company like VRP isn't a tuner who claims to give you a warranty and give you "comfort power" like Kleeman. They are more aggressive and are willing to push the limits. Of course you will gain more power with a company like VRP since that is their focus. Some people are more comfortable spending the same or even more money on a less powerful mod but having the peace of mind that everything will be fine than knowing that they have another 50hp over the next guy. Me personally, I go for power and ingenuity. Being a guinea pig is very risky...but there are a few complete nuts out there who want the best in their class...and those are the people who will invest extra money and put much more on the line to have these slightly experimental mods put into their cars.

I always thought the biggest package Kleeman had was the 640hp package? Maybe this didn't include Camshafts and Intercoolers? Is that was gives it the extra 60hp? I could definitely see those two mods giving at least an extra 60 hp.

I believe that if you want more than 650+-hp on a 55K car, your best bet is nitrous oxide. Proven, simple, effective .

JRAMGV8

Those are serious numbers...

ItalianStallion

Yup, its all marketing. They will post higher dyno numbers than their competitors. There will be a few guys out there with more money than knowledge who will buy into this and go for the Kleeman package since it looks so much more powerful.

saman6164

With all do respect i dont think you read any of the posts i made in this thread in detail. I just posted the dyno sheet posted by VRP and there is no difference in the power between the before and after cam. Also, the one person that has done cams/head has not increased power. So based on what are you saying that VRP makes more power?

Havoc

Look Dude, I Hear and Understand all of what you are Writing Down. I'm Not the type of Person Who Believes Everything. I've Done Extensive Work on Engines Before. I'll admit it, I'm a Ford Guy All the Way. I was born in Ford Country and we had to do Extensive Head Modifications to our Small Block Fords just to keep up with the Big Block Chevy Boys. Port Velocity was key!
But hey, I'll be the First to Admit that I don't Know it All!
Honestly, I never thought I would ever own a Benz, much less an SL55 AMG. I rather pay someone to do surgery on this badboy, then do it myself though. Don't worry brother, we'll get it right.

Rock

Victor or Albert,

Do I need a custom tune with the VRP cams or is my K2 sufficient? If I do need a custom tune where do I get one.

Havoc

The Kleeman K4 Kit includes Camshafts, and Bigger Pulley, but not the Intercoolers.
You're correct, the K4 Kit is rated at 640hp.
The only difference is the addition of Intercoolers at ~60hp?

Vadim @ FD

Saman:

Thank you for pitching in. Looking at your posts, I can only conclude that you have had a lot of experience in tuning and your contributions are welcome.

Up until very recently, I have been on this board since 2002 - under vadim@evosport - most AMG customer were mostly interested in before and after. Very few had the knowldege and understanding of how engine works and operates. As the time has progressed and Kompressors started to reach second hand market, client base has shifted to more hands on crowd.

From 2002-2005 I was part owner at evosport and developed their Kompressor line. You can search it under my previous handle. At that time very few wanted to go further than bolt-ons, as warranty concerns were allways on their mind. Now, the game has changed, clients are willing to dig into the engine and push it to the limit.

Victor and I just got together as a team last December, a lot of components - cams, heads and so on were sourced by Victor from the vendors. My job now is to put all of them together and make them work as a package.

This is what we are working on right now. Our goal is to create a proven and affordable stairway to power for Kompressor owners. And we are in the process of building it.

So feel free to offer your thoughts - in the end it is all for benefit of this community.

GoDav AMG

saman6164

I appreciate the welcome and your explanation. I honestly applaud your efforts in this market. My only advice is to say that R&D is everything. Also, i would honestly hold off on selling more complex packages until you guys have the ECU tune down perfect. I think the pulley and tune VR550 thread is great. It seems like that combination you guys have gotten straight.

I think you guys should do a head and cam setup locally get the tune down perfect and pass it on to customers like jackpro1 whos tune does not look right and seems to be down on power. I will be much more active on this thread since and not to step on any toes but if you ever want an opinion or input from another angle i would have no problem throwing my 2cents. Hell, if things turn out good, i might throw my CLS55 in the mix

Vadim @ FD

Thank you!

Our next step is VR600, headers and 80 mm TB on top of the pulley kit.

Cams will be next. Sometimes you have to do development as client requests.

rflow306

That's why there is a correction factor and the weather conditions are clearly posted . Look at the difference in weather and you will see your power increase. The smoothing is set to zero on all the runs posted but what smoothing would you like to see. Here is the smoothing on five the delta is the same, I would like to see a 50 hp difference on smoothing.




Here are all the same dynos uncorrected, the car made the same power despite 17 degree difference in air temp and lower barometric pressure, you do understand that correct.



More food for thought the car ran 11.34- 123.80 in 71 deg weather in Florida before the cams, slip is on dragtimes. Then ran 11.38 at 123.80 in 90 deg weather at MIR and was the highest trapping e55 there. I'm sure my fellow board members who were there can verify the et data and chyme in. By the way I had slr copies before the vrp cams that only made 7 rwhp over stock.

These are the facts, but by all means please show me a dyno with a 50 rwhp difference from moving the smoothing. Do we continue to discuss this civilly despite your assumption being way off.

vrus

Saman,

I am always open to input and feedback.. I can take constructive criticism.. Its the only way someone can build and improve. Also, I dont claim to be an expert.. I just go out and look for all the experts and get them to build things that I want. My goal is to provide quality parts at the best possible prices I can.

Regarding the VRP cams..

I dont publish the specs, because, unlike the domestic and JDM markets, parts and services are very expensive. Euro tuners dont want their stuff copied so that is why alot of the information is secretive.. this was the main driving factor behind me doing my own research and coming up with my own products (rewind 2yrs back). I refused to pay $4K for a TB kit, $4400 for headers, $4K for a CF airbox, $4K for pulley + ECU.. Are you seeing a pattern yet? If you look at the market space now, you'll see alot of market correction in the pricing structures.. Take a guess why that is.

Have you seen Kleemann or Renntech publish their cam specs? If I didnt tell you so, you might not know that Kleemann cams are nothing more than Schrick cams which will maybe get you 8rwhp.

Renntech cams = Evotech cams.. Evotech made and supplied them for Renntech while they were still together. We had a set of those cams also and on the car we installed them on they were also 7rwhp increase. Most likely the Evotech cams = Schrick cams because the power output was identical.

Now, enter our cams: more lift, more overlap, and change in LSA.. RFlow's BEFORE dyno was done in 74F weather (Jan I believe) with a correction factor of 0.96. The AFTER dyno was done in 92F weather (Aug) and correction factor was 1.01. They picked up 30rwhp and shifted the torque curve 40rwtq @ 4,000RPM.. Look at the area under the curve and not just the peak numbers. There was NO ECU retuning done.

Another member (BMS - 2005 SL55) also installed a set on his K2 car.. He picked up 25 or 30rwhp.. I cant remember, but the car was dyno'd by Sunil. Again, no ECU changes were made.

Rocket is having some issues with his car right now, but we dont know if it is timing, fuel, or what. I called them drop in replacements because on the first 2 cars we did, we didnt need to change the tune and the cams made good power. I figured if we actually tweaked the tune, there would be even more power to be had.

Regarding JakPro and the Heads & Cams.

Jim and I have talked on and off pretty much for the past 2 yrs. He has always been supportive and enthusiastic about all these projects.. When we discussed the heads & cams intiative, since my car had not been back together, I mentioned to him that I couldnt provide any solid gaurantees but I was confident enough that I invested $18K in my own set of heads for my car (which have been done for a while and are awaiting their new 5.7L motor).

Based on some information I recieved from 2 reliable sources, I was told just doing exhaust port opening would yield 40hp increase on these heads.. Our stock E55 exhaust ports flow about as much as a 1990's 5L Mustang head... Its that bad. Based on this information I gave a conservative estimate that a good set of ported heads with our cams should make 70hp - 80hp.

Jim and I had talked many times about the possibility of boost loss, or how the car would run with the stock tune after all was said and done. In the end, I said that worst comes to worse we could custom tune it if we found that the Kleemann program he had didnt support the new mods. He is pioneering the VRP heads & cams just like he pioneered the SLR cams in his car.

After the car went back together and he drove it, he noticed the car was ALOT faster and he could spin the tires at will which he could never do before.. At his altitude the car just was sluggish. He told me that it was such a DRASTIC change in power and was so excited. Heck.. his Master Tech @ MB who drives hundreds of cars (including modified Kleemann V12TT cars) said Jim's car was the fastest car he has even driven; hands down.

On the datalogging that he did, there was no boost drop which told us that the port velocity and the combustion chamber size were just fine.. I have had the heads flowed for myself, but with Jim's pair and wanting to get the heads back as soon as possible, we skipped that step.

We both know that with some tuning that car will be a monster.

Please dont think for a minute that Jim or anyone else was mislead or promised something that wasnt true.

Again... I do appreciate the input, and everything I do, I've always thrown out there to be criticized and poked at.

In the end, we will have tried and tested packages that will be turnkey and reliable.

rflow306

Rock dyno first with your current tune and see where you stand. You will see the difference, I have said all along what my position was in regards to porting the heads on an e55 little or no gains imho.

saman6164

That is why i said in my post that since all the runs have smoothing set to 0 that its ok for comparison purposes. But you see that just changing the smoothing to 5 in fact did change the baseline numbers. Also, 17degrees of ambient temperature do not change power output by 20whp. Your car does not see ambient temperatures. Its your IATs that determine that. Why dont you look at intake air temperatures when the ambient temp is 90F vs 70F. The IATs will be different by just a few degrees. And that wont make a 20whp difference.

As far as the 50whp difference comment on smoothing. I said i can change the numbers by 50whp on a run. I was not talking about your particular run. On a high horsepower car it holds true. And you can see that the uncorrected runs show absolutely no difference in power.

vrus

This is one thing that will get pounded into your head over and over..

Our cars are not like anything you are used to modifying.. they are the most sensitive to IAT I have ever seen. There is a HUGE difference in power between 74 and 92F. Trust me. The IAT-to-timing maps on these cars are like downhill ski slopes; power drops dramatically.. If you cant maintain < 140F IAT you are already losing power.

Because our stock intercooler circuits are very poor (location and capacity) stationary dyno pulls are affected greatly by the ambient temps in the dyno room.

You will start to learn all of this first hand once you start tinkering with your CLS.

rflow306

I guess we should stop using sae corrections, If you look at my post I always post both uncorrected, sae and sometimes even std for comparison. The reason for corrections are obvious and especially holds true in this case because its the same dyno, same car, and is used to rule out the weather. Once again look at the delta no matter what the smoothing is
You obviously have never dynoed your 55 in different weather and don't understand how much your Iat's are linked to ambient air in an e55. You seem to forget that blower output speed is constant with a given pulley so hp will vary greatly with air temp and density. Take your cls55 to the track during different times of the year to verify for yourself.

MikeRPA

i want e55 omg =[ please donate a poor student for my e55 lolol

E55 RUSS

LOL..Relax man...Get it done 1st and will see the results ...I hope you come close to Klemann numbers...We dont even know yet if the HEADS working at all...or wrap kit...cause we havent seen any proves yet....