Heat Exchangers
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,909
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From: Houston
C63S
If you are running high pressure (like in a turbo IC, not in our HE), then a bar and plate will be better.
A bar and plate has better internal aerodynamics, and a tube fin has better external aerodynamics. Everything being exactly equal, the bar and plate will have a lower pressure drop (by like, 1% if that), but the charge air will be hotter and will be more prone to heat soak because of the poorer external aerodynamics. However, you can overcome the poor internal aerodynamics by using a core with more rows, making it better in both aspects than the bar and plate. Which is what we did.
If you are upgrading your intercooler, then you should use a bar and plate design. If you are wanting to upgrade your heat exchanger, then you should use a tube and fin because of its low pressure.
Hands down our tube and fin HE will outperform even the slightly larger bar and plate unit on the market. Not to mention that it costs half the price.
LET Motorsports has done extensive research on this and we have teamed up with C&R Racing, who is known for providing the same cores we purchased to the top Nascar teams.
Call David Bridges @ C&R if you care to hear his opinion on bar & plate vs tube & fin in low pressure, air to water instances.
Again bar & plate is better for FMIC's....but that is not what we have. The unit mounted on the front of our car is a heat exchanger (FMHE), not an intercooler (FMIC). Our IC is mounted below the supercharger.
A bar and plate has better internal aerodynamics, and a tube fin has better external aerodynamics. Everything being exactly equal, the bar and plate will have a lower pressure drop (by like, 1% if that), but the charge air will be hotter and will be more prone to heat soak because of the poorer external aerodynamics. However, you can overcome the poor internal aerodynamics by using a core with more rows, making it better in both aspects than the bar and plate. Which is what we did.
If you are upgrading your intercooler, then you should use a bar and plate design. If you are wanting to upgrade your heat exchanger, then you should use a tube and fin because of its low pressure.
Hands down our tube and fin HE will outperform even the slightly larger bar and plate unit on the market. Not to mention that it costs half the price.
LET Motorsports has done extensive research on this and we have teamed up with C&R Racing, who is known for providing the same cores we purchased to the top Nascar teams.
Call David Bridges @ C&R if you care to hear his opinion on bar & plate vs tube & fin in low pressure, air to water instances.
Again bar & plate is better for FMIC's....but that is not what we have. The unit mounted on the front of our car is a heat exchanger (FMHE), not an intercooler (FMIC). Our IC is mounted below the supercharger.
Last edited by sales@eurocharged.com; Mar 11, 2008 at 09:27 AM.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,466
Likes: 10
From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
If you are running high pressure (like in a turbo IC, not in our HE), then a bar and plate will be better.
A bar and plate has better internal aerodynamics, and a tube fin has better external aerodynamics. Everything being exactly equal, the bar and plate will have a lower pressure drop (by like, 1% if that), but the charge air will be hotter and will be more prone to heat soak because of the poorer external aerodynamics. However, you can overcome the poor internal aerodynamics by using a core with more rows, making it better in both aspects than the bar and plate. Which is what we did.
If you are upgrading your intercooler, then you should use a bar and plate design. If you are wanting to upgrade your heat exchanger, then you should use a tube and fin because of its low pressure.
Hands down our tube and fin HE will outperform even the slightly larger bar and plate unit on the market. Not to mention that it costs half the price.
LET Motorsports has done extensive research on this and we have teamed up with C&R Racing, who is known for providing the same cores we purchased to the top Nascar teams.
Call David Bridges @ C&R if you care to hear his opinion on bar & plate vs tube & fin in low pressure, air to water instances.
Again bar & plate is better for FMIC's....but that is not what we have. The unit mounted on the front of our car is a heat exchanger (FMHE), not an intercooler (FMIC). Our IC is mounted below the supercharger.
A bar and plate has better internal aerodynamics, and a tube fin has better external aerodynamics. Everything being exactly equal, the bar and plate will have a lower pressure drop (by like, 1% if that), but the charge air will be hotter and will be more prone to heat soak because of the poorer external aerodynamics. However, you can overcome the poor internal aerodynamics by using a core with more rows, making it better in both aspects than the bar and plate. Which is what we did.
If you are upgrading your intercooler, then you should use a bar and plate design. If you are wanting to upgrade your heat exchanger, then you should use a tube and fin because of its low pressure.
Hands down our tube and fin HE will outperform even the slightly larger bar and plate unit on the market. Not to mention that it costs half the price.
LET Motorsports has done extensive research on this and we have teamed up with C&R Racing, who is known for providing the same cores we purchased to the top Nascar teams.
Call David Bridges @ C&R if you care to hear his opinion on bar & plate vs tube & fin in low pressure, air to water instances.
Again bar & plate is better for FMIC's....but that is not what we have. The unit mounted on the front of our car is a heat exchanger (FMHE), not an intercooler (FMIC). Our IC is mounted below the supercharger.
now I have to change my signature to FM HE!
for the price.. its a great set up.
I'm not sure about the out perform part..
its hard to say.. unless you test 2 different STOCK cars, same pump on both cars, on the same day with both units and road testing using a data log software (not dyno).
this probably can be done once more LET's units hit the road.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 973
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From: Santa Barbara & Los Angeles, CA
C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
So no prototype unit yet, no numbers, and the opinion of one guy who says TF is better than BP. Wow, I don't even no how to respond. If you search the forums, you will find we have posted about this specific topic many times. Here is some before and after data during our extensive, actual testing on one of many E55s. This is our bar and plate core. I cant wait to see a unit that will outperform ours. It must be something real special...
The first set of sheets is from our 5" unit on a pullied car. The second set of sheets is with the 7" unit with no pulley. As you can see, our units produce great results. They also look great in the bumper. All units now have larger angled end tanks as well for superior flow to square tanks.
I forgot to label, dark blue is IAT, light blue is speed.
The first set of sheets is from our 5" unit on a pullied car. The second set of sheets is with the 7" unit with no pulley. As you can see, our units produce great results. They also look great in the bumper. All units now have larger angled end tanks as well for superior flow to square tanks.
I forgot to label, dark blue is IAT, light blue is speed.
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Joined: Feb 2004
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1989 Toyota Tercel EZ - dyno'd @ 70whp/77wtq
Brandon,
Do you separate the cooling lines? Are the results above still 1-line or 2-line?
I plan to separate my cooling... but thinking of using stock H/E (so smaller than yours) since I have a spare one
Wonder how much of the difference in terms of IAT impact:1-line bigger H/E vs. 2-line stock H/E.
Do you separate the cooling lines? Are the results above still 1-line or 2-line?
I plan to separate my cooling... but thinking of using stock H/E (so smaller than yours) since I have a spare one
Wonder how much of the difference in terms of IAT impact:1-line bigger H/E vs. 2-line stock H/E.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 973
Likes: 1
From: Santa Barbara & Los Angeles, CA
C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
The data above is with stock cooling system still intact.
Separating the coolant circuit on the E55 does not yield the kind of gains it does on the C32. On the C32, separating the circuit, without adding more capacity has been good for -8° IAT at full boost. There is hardly a difference on the E55.
Unless you are going to be running a larger reservoir, I wouldn't worry about separating. Although, maybe you should call David Bridges first, he might know lol.
Separating the coolant circuit on the E55 does not yield the kind of gains it does on the C32. On the C32, separating the circuit, without adding more capacity has been good for -8° IAT at full boost. There is hardly a difference on the E55.
Unless you are going to be running a larger reservoir, I wouldn't worry about separating. Although, maybe you should call David Bridges first, he might know lol.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
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1989 Toyota Tercel EZ - dyno'd @ 70whp/77wtq
Thanks... what do you mean w/ larger reservoir? I plan to add another reservoir... so the circuit is completely separate.
And any insight to illiterate mind why it would work w/ C32 but not E55? Is it because the engine size?
And any insight to illiterate mind why it would work w/ C32 but not E55? Is it because the engine size?
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,909
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From: Houston
C63S
I would love to compare the HE's head to head on the forum.
In fact, our HE's were compared by a 3rd party on the C32 and they chose ours as best performing.....or do you not remember?
Secondly, our single unit will work with all E55's. We use Mercedes OEM brackets to mount the oil cooler. We also use the same 4 bumper support bolts to mount the HE.
Last but not least, our unit costs $275 less than yours and yes, it shows better numbers.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Ohio
...
couple of things here:
1. it is not the opinion of one guy, please provide me with some data that imperically states that bar and plate is superior to tube and fin for a water to air application...
2. if someone would like to do the testing as an independent third party, i would be willing to provide them with one of our units...
1. it is not the opinion of one guy, please provide me with some data that imperically states that bar and plate is superior to tube and fin for a water to air application...
2. if someone would like to do the testing as an independent third party, i would be willing to provide them with one of our units...
So no prototype unit yet, no numbers, and the opinion of one guy who says TF is better than BP. Wow, I don't even no how to respond. If you search the forums, you will find we have posted about this specific topic many times. Here is some before and after data during our extensive, actual testing on one of many E55s. This is our bar and plate core. I cant wait to see a unit that will outperform ours. It must be something real special...
The first set of sheets is from our 5" unit on a pullied car. The second set of sheets is with the 7" unit with no pulley. As you can see, our units produce great results. They also look great in the bumper. All units now have larger angled end tanks as well for superior flow to square tanks.
I forgot to label, dark blue is IAT, light blue is speed.
The first set of sheets is from our 5" unit on a pullied car. The second set of sheets is with the 7" unit with no pulley. As you can see, our units produce great results. They also look great in the bumper. All units now have larger angled end tanks as well for superior flow to square tanks.
I forgot to label, dark blue is IAT, light blue is speed.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 973
Likes: 1
From: Santa Barbara & Los Angeles, CA
C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
I was extremely grateful for your help with the cams.
My jab was at the ridiculous thought of calling some random guy to hear his thoughts on why one is better than the other.
Being that you guys are just getting into the E55 market, please take the time to read all of the forum posts that pertain to this same debate. There is a great deal of dialogue between Victor and myself on the subject, with all the technical information you could ask for. No need to rehash it here. I have gone to great lengths to explain the benefits of BP core in air-water systems.
Out of curiosity, what is that graph you are posting? Mods, car, speeds, temps. Any useful data would be interesting instead of just splashing some random piece of datalogging....In fact, just start a new thread about the incredible results so we can get all the facts. No need to have it floating in here.
As far as the C32, please...Two guys tested it on a dyno lol. I would be more than happy to post real world datalogging. As I remember, the guy with my unit made more power..? But we can take that to the C32 forum...
Just so that everyone is clear, we sell one unit that fits every year E55. We also offer an upgraded, larger unit for the 03 with no oil cooler. We sell them as fast as we build them. I will put one aside for some head to head testing. Let me know when you guys have one built.
My jab was at the ridiculous thought of calling some random guy to hear his thoughts on why one is better than the other.
Being that you guys are just getting into the E55 market, please take the time to read all of the forum posts that pertain to this same debate. There is a great deal of dialogue between Victor and myself on the subject, with all the technical information you could ask for. No need to rehash it here. I have gone to great lengths to explain the benefits of BP core in air-water systems.
Out of curiosity, what is that graph you are posting? Mods, car, speeds, temps. Any useful data would be interesting instead of just splashing some random piece of datalogging....In fact, just start a new thread about the incredible results so we can get all the facts. No need to have it floating in here.
As far as the C32, please...Two guys tested it on a dyno lol. I would be more than happy to post real world datalogging. As I remember, the guy with my unit made more power..? But we can take that to the C32 forum...
Just so that everyone is clear, we sell one unit that fits every year E55. We also offer an upgraded, larger unit for the 03 with no oil cooler. We sell them as fast as we build them. I will put one aside for some head to head testing. Let me know when you guys have one built.
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Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
again..I'm only speaking from what I read on the C32 forum.
the head to head comparison was on a car strapped on a dyno..
the graphs displayed were from 2 different cars with different set ups in terms of mods.
to date I'm not sure if a proper road testing data logging has taken place between similar packaged cars...
this country is great, since you get to buy at Walmart or Target, depending on your wallet and needs.
Personal opinion: the bar and plate just looks better and probably will take a beating better than the tube and fin. Once a rock hits those fins, it will not look as nice.
The same will apply on the Bar and plate units, but the damage won't be as noticeable.
just my .02$
the head to head comparison was on a car strapped on a dyno..
the graphs displayed were from 2 different cars with different set ups in terms of mods.
to date I'm not sure if a proper road testing data logging has taken place between similar packaged cars...
this country is great, since you get to buy at Walmart or Target, depending on your wallet and needs.
Personal opinion: the bar and plate just looks better and probably will take a beating better than the tube and fin. Once a rock hits those fins, it will not look as nice.
The same will apply on the Bar and plate units, but the damage won't be as noticeable.
just my .02$
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,414
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From: Los Angeles, CA
2005 E55
I'm adding a trunk mount like many have done.
This is the one I'll be using...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Brandon,
Thats the one that I've bought. It fits in the trunk nicely.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 973
Likes: 1
From: Santa Barbara & Los Angeles, CA
C32, Cobra, 700hp Vespa
Nice Mark. With the bar and plate core you have on your car, coupled with a reservoir and ice, you can actually achieve more than 100% efficiency...Something that will not happen with a tube and fin core, ever...Lets get it hooked up
You are right Joe, BP can take a beating. I guess part of the testing should be dropping the unit off of a roof If I look at a TF core funny, it will bend.
Look guys, really, I don't care. Congratulations on creating a bargain priced unit. I am sure it will preform great and sell well. Best of luck.
You are right Joe, BP can take a beating. I guess part of the testing should be dropping the unit off of a roof
If I look at a TF core funny, it will bend.Look guys, really, I don't care. Congratulations on creating a bargain priced unit. I am sure it will preform great and sell well. Best of luck.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,450
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1989 Toyota Tercel EZ - dyno'd @ 70whp/77wtq
More water, more cooling.
I'm adding a trunk mount like many have done.
This is the one I'll be using...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Brandon,
Thats the one that I've bought. It fits in the trunk nicely.
I'm adding a trunk mount like many have done.
This is the one I'll be using...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Brandon,
Thats the one that I've bought. It fits in the trunk nicely.
I don't think I'll get that big. Most likely only 1/4-1/2 gallon. We'll see....
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,909
Likes: 130
From: Houston
C63S
Yeah, sure you were. That is why you responded to my PM's asking if everything was OK.
Why, David Bridges and the team of engineers at C&R racing have done more research than all of us could ever do. They have spent millions on R&D and they sell their tube and fin radiators to everyone from Nascar, to NHRA, to Indy car, etc.
I wish I could tell you how wrong you are, but some things are just better left untold....not to mention I promised I wouldn't.
Stay tuned!
lol? So now you find members testing products that we all sell them funny? Man, I would be mad if I were them.
It's built
Being that you guys are just getting into the E55 market, please take the time to read all of the forum posts that pertain to this same debate. There is a great deal of dialogue between Victor and myself on the subject, with all the technical information you could ask for. No need to rehash it here. I have gone to great lengths to explain the benefits of BP core in air-water systems.
Out of curiosity, what is that graph you are posting? Mods, car, speeds, temps. Any useful data would be interesting instead of just splashing some random piece of datalogging....In fact, just start a new thread about the incredible results so we can get all the facts. No need to have it floating in here.
Just so that everyone is clear, we sell one unit that fits every year E55. We also offer an upgraded, larger unit for the 03 with no oil cooler. We sell them as fast as we build them. I will put one aside for some head to head testing. Let me know when you guys have one built.
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 11,664
Likes: 3
From: SoCal
W221
More water, more cooling.
I'm adding a trunk mount like many have done.
This is the one I'll be using...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Brandon,
Thats the one that I've bought. It fits in the trunk nicely.
I'm adding a trunk mount like many have done.
This is the one I'll be using...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Brandon,
Thats the one that I've bought. It fits in the trunk nicely.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
From: Florida
GT-R
seems like all the entry-level vendors are fighting for market share.
Why don't both of you meet up on a sunny day, install your respective HE, datalog all the pertinent information and post the results. I think both companies make a great product and are priced significantly less than the alternatives.
Why don't both of you meet up on a sunny day, install your respective HE, datalog all the pertinent information and post the results. I think both companies make a great product and are priced significantly less than the alternatives.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,513
Likes: 0
From: In a box
W211 E55
Well put.
I've seen the prototype LET unit, and it isn't too shabby.
I look forward to putting one on my car. As a matter of fact, I look forward to putting a bunch of LET stuff on my car.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,513
Likes: 0
From: In a box
W211 E55
I've never really seen a huge difference in performance between the two designs on a street-driven vehicle....all things being equal, I may not want to pay the weight penalty of a BP setup.
Just my $.02, your mileage may vary, yadda yadda yadda...
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,414
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From: Los Angeles, CA
2005 E55
Yeah, its an extra tank to hold more water, and a place for the water to sit longer to cool before its being sucked back into the intercooler(After passing the HE).
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,466
Likes: 10
From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
seems like all the entry-level vendors are fighting for market share.
Why don't both of you meet up on a sunny day, install your respective HE, datalog all the pertinent information and post the results. I think both companies make a great product and are priced significantly less than the alternatives.
Why don't both of you meet up on a sunny day, install your respective HE, datalog all the pertinent information and post the results. I think both companies make a great product and are priced significantly less than the alternatives.
best of all.. I'm a happy customer either way I turn.
wether its Tube and Fin or Bar and Plate.. its a must mod for any E55.
I use Code3, because they are local. If this was the othe way around.. I would use LET. Its all business here.. and let's not take it personal.
