E63 vs E55 Dyno Discussion
04-10-2008, 11:02 PM
#27
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Yeah my 1.69 is a freak. but I do 1.84-1.87 alot which still is blasting past even that modded M5. Consider most E55 stock are doing 1.71-1.85 all the time. That M5 you saw like has a ton of hp and is easily 11 second car with a better launch. 1.96 is ok but he ought to do 1.87 and hit 11.80-90's@117-118
04-10-2008, 11:05 PM
#28
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E-ZGO 53hp., 1999 E 430 sport, 2004 E 55, 2008 Tahoe LTZ on 24"s
Here this should clear things up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamometer
http://www.mustangdyne.com/faq.htm
http://www.dynojet.com/automotive_dyno/default.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamometer
http://www.mustangdyne.com/faq.htm
http://www.dynojet.com/automotive_dyno/default.aspx
04-10-2008, 11:10 PM
#29
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a quarter mile at a time
Here this should clear things up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamometer
http://www.mustangdyne.com/faq.htm
http://www.dynojet.com/automotive_dyno/default.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamometer
http://www.mustangdyne.com/faq.htm
http://www.dynojet.com/automotive_dyno/default.aspx
Wheel force is the acceptable translation of Tractive Effort, which describes what happens between the tire patch and the road. Tractive Effort is a tangential force, a product of prime mover torque and a vehicle's transmission, and can be described as,
Tractive Effort = (TE * R1 * R2 / r) E
Where: R1 = Transmission Ratio, R2 = Final Drive Ratio, r = Tire Radius,
E = Drivetrain Efficiency
So, an engine generating 250-lb.-ft of torque @ 3500 RPM, a 1:1 ratio in fourth gear, a drivetrain efficiency of .75, an axle ratio of 2.5, and tires having a diameter of 24-inches will produce the following Tractive Effort at the corresponding road speed - 100-mph,
Tractive Effort = (250 * 1 * 2.5) / 1) * .75 = 468.75-lbs. of force
Regardless of what's been said about engine torque and the role it plays with respect to aggregate vehicle performance, the only vehicle performance that counts occurs between the tire and the road. The more kinetic energy the vehicle is able to take advantage of, the faster it will move from point A to point B - which is what wins races. Anyone with money and resources can get their hands on a robust engine - top-notch racecar building is an art form and tires, aerodynamics, thermal dynamics, suspension, and steering separate the men from the boys.
04-10-2008, 11:13 PM
#30
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2003 E55 AMG
Marcus,
I dont have alot of experience with Dyno Dynamics or Mustang dynos so I cant comment on their accuracy vs the Dynojet. The big problem is that most places are running Dynojets and that has become a "standard" (if you will) that most people use to compare their results to others.
Based on what you are saying, I would say the Dyno Dynamics machine is the next best thing to having your engine dyno'd on a chassis dyno. But, if you are looking to see how your car is doing in relation to all your friends cars, it becomes more difficult.. I am not sure why the Dynojets are the most widespread, but, I am learning that the correction factors from one Dynojet to another can be huge.
I've become more and more interested in seeing uncorrected numbers from a dynojet now rather than seeing all the different corrected ones from the past. Whenever we do dynos on a car, we always try to capture and post both the corrected and uncorrected numbers so people can see what is what.
What makes the Dyno Dynamics so much more accurate? Is it the method that it uses to do the calculation vs the Dynjet way?
I dont have alot of experience with Dyno Dynamics or Mustang dynos so I cant comment on their accuracy vs the Dynojet. The big problem is that most places are running Dynojets and that has become a "standard" (if you will) that most people use to compare their results to others.
Based on what you are saying, I would say the Dyno Dynamics machine is the next best thing to having your engine dyno'd on a chassis dyno. But, if you are looking to see how your car is doing in relation to all your friends cars, it becomes more difficult.. I am not sure why the Dynojets are the most widespread, but, I am learning that the correction factors from one Dynojet to another can be huge.
I've become more and more interested in seeing uncorrected numbers from a dynojet now rather than seeing all the different corrected ones from the past. Whenever we do dynos on a car, we always try to capture and post both the corrected and uncorrected numbers so people can see what is what.
What makes the Dyno Dynamics so much more accurate? Is it the method that it uses to do the calculation vs the Dynjet way?
04-10-2008, 11:24 PM
#31
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2009 C63 Black on Black
Good Write up Marcus!
Hello gents,
After my wonderful "discussions" with juice63, I decided to do some investigating now that the 63 has been out a little while to find out if we could get some real comprable dynos. Before I even get into this post, I want to make it CLEAR that this is a DISCUSSION, and NOT a pissing match. We all know how often this subject comes up and you'll see towards the end of my post that I think these dyno's illustrate strong and weak points for both cars. Please, let's keep this constructive and mature...
Now the reality is, I don't trust DynoJET dynos. I don't, period. Quite frankly, I don't have real regard for the Mustang either. I'm not looking at debating dynos here, but the fact is that DynoJETs and Mustangs read high, and most of the time when people claim their car makes more HP than it's supposed to, it's because they've dyno'd on a DynoJET.
With that out of the way, I've grown to love the HEARTBREAKER dyno, AKA the Dyno Dynamics. This thing has sent people home crying, and that is because it tells you the REAL DEAL. You cannot escape the truth, and in my extensive experience no dyno has told the truth with as much accuracy and consistency as the Dyno Dynamics.
I therefore have been searching for an E63 dyno on a Dyno Dynamics and was just able to find one, courtesy of a Dragtimes.com member called "AMGrateful" - I dyno'd recently too on my tuner's dyno and I think this shows really solid data for discussion between the two engines:
AMGrateful's car made 428rwhp and 399rwtq, my car made 421rwhp and 460rwtq.
Now I will be very honest and admit that 55k cars have trouble making consistently high HP numbers because of heatsoak. My car will lose as much as 20rwhp on the dyno after it gets really hot. The 63s do not have this problem, although I'm sure heatsoak affects them too, not like it does for us. I think that the 63 engine makes GREAT, CONSISTENT power and is truly a fast car. I was not expecting to see it make that power, but it is an impressive figure. I will go into modding the 55 later, but honestly the 63 is a great engine that to be totally fair doesn't really need much modification - I mean stick a set of headers, etc and the car is just a serious contender. I think the E55 needs mods in order to run properly whereas the E63 demonstrates a more complete and consistent package from the factory. I give AMG credit with this engine, it was designed properly and does not have the thorns in it's side like the factory 55 engines do.
HOWEVER,
, these dynos also show why my allegiance is to the E55. I was within 2% HP of the E63, with 60-70 more torque at the wheels. I have dyno'd my '03 and '05 here and even with HP differences, the torque is pretty consistent. This is because the heatsoak has a more adverse affect on the HP as the ECU pulls timing up top than it does on the real low end torque.
The second big thing is that we 55 guys have the wonderful ability to correct these issues and improve upon them with our tuners. I'm having Stage 1 done (VRP Pulley, cooling kit, ECU, etc) and I will be able to follow up this dyno with ones that show the improvement after the most basic of modifications. I will follow up in this discussion with new dynos after the car gets completed.
I think what I'm walking away with this discussion is really two things:
1.) New found respect for the 63 motor, it is a very powerful engine and making that kind of power on a Dyno Dynamics. It is consistent, it is fast, and doesn't need mods to make it run effectively. When you add things like optional P30, the 7speed, etc it's not that hard to understand the E63 is a great package and depending on one's wants/needs, can be seen as the better car for someone.
2.) Continued respect for the 55 motor... although what I'm talking about here is not new, and modding the 55 motor is not new, it's a reminder of just what potential this motor has with relatively simple mods. I am going to try and document my car as much as is reasonably possible and really feel quite happy with my car, even if this is the 2nd time around with one. Nothing to me offers quite the complete package for the mod/power freak like the 55, IMHO.
Above all, the REAL rival for us AMG guys, is the E60 M5, and I was also fortunately able to find a nice stock E60 dyno done on a Dyno Dynamics. Look at the torque numbers and you'll see there's a difference. I think it's pretty clear
Cheers,
Marcus
After my wonderful "discussions" with juice63, I decided to do some investigating now that the 63 has been out a little while to find out if we could get some real comprable dynos. Before I even get into this post, I want to make it CLEAR that this is a DISCUSSION, and NOT a pissing match. We all know how often this subject comes up and you'll see towards the end of my post that I think these dyno's illustrate strong and weak points for both cars. Please, let's keep this constructive and mature...
Now the reality is, I don't trust DynoJET dynos. I don't, period. Quite frankly, I don't have real regard for the Mustang either. I'm not looking at debating dynos here, but the fact is that DynoJETs and Mustangs read high, and most of the time when people claim their car makes more HP than it's supposed to, it's because they've dyno'd on a DynoJET.
With that out of the way, I've grown to love the HEARTBREAKER dyno, AKA the Dyno Dynamics. This thing has sent people home crying, and that is because it tells you the REAL DEAL. You cannot escape the truth, and in my extensive experience no dyno has told the truth with as much accuracy and consistency as the Dyno Dynamics.
I therefore have been searching for an E63 dyno on a Dyno Dynamics and was just able to find one, courtesy of a Dragtimes.com member called "AMGrateful" - I dyno'd recently too on my tuner's dyno and I think this shows really solid data for discussion between the two engines:
AMGrateful's car made 428rwhp and 399rwtq, my car made 421rwhp and 460rwtq.
Now I will be very honest and admit that 55k cars have trouble making consistently high HP numbers because of heatsoak. My car will lose as much as 20rwhp on the dyno after it gets really hot. The 63s do not have this problem, although I'm sure heatsoak affects them too, not like it does for us. I think that the 63 engine makes GREAT, CONSISTENT power and is truly a fast car. I was not expecting to see it make that power, but it is an impressive figure. I will go into modding the 55 later, but honestly the 63 is a great engine that to be totally fair doesn't really need much modification - I mean stick a set of headers, etc and the car is just a serious contender. I think the E55 needs mods in order to run properly whereas the E63 demonstrates a more complete and consistent package from the factory. I give AMG credit with this engine, it was designed properly and does not have the thorns in it's side like the factory 55 engines do.
HOWEVER,
, these dynos also show why my allegiance is to the E55. I was within 2% HP of the E63, with 60-70 more torque at the wheels. I have dyno'd my '03 and '05 here and even with HP differences, the torque is pretty consistent. This is because the heatsoak has a more adverse affect on the HP as the ECU pulls timing up top than it does on the real low end torque.The second big thing is that we 55 guys have the wonderful ability to correct these issues and improve upon them with our tuners. I'm having Stage 1 done (VRP Pulley, cooling kit, ECU, etc) and I will be able to follow up this dyno with ones that show the improvement after the most basic of modifications. I will follow up in this discussion with new dynos after the car gets completed.
I think what I'm walking away with this discussion is really two things:
1.) New found respect for the 63 motor, it is a very powerful engine and making that kind of power on a Dyno Dynamics. It is consistent, it is fast, and doesn't need mods to make it run effectively. When you add things like optional P30, the 7speed, etc it's not that hard to understand the E63 is a great package and depending on one's wants/needs, can be seen as the better car for someone.
2.) Continued respect for the 55 motor... although what I'm talking about here is not new, and modding the 55 motor is not new, it's a reminder of just what potential this motor has with relatively simple mods. I am going to try and document my car as much as is reasonably possible and really feel quite happy with my car, even if this is the 2nd time around with one. Nothing to me offers quite the complete package for the mod/power freak like the 55, IMHO.
Above all, the REAL rival for us AMG guys, is the E60 M5, and I was also fortunately able to find a nice stock E60 dyno done on a Dyno Dynamics. Look at the torque numbers and you'll see there's a difference. I think it's pretty clear
Cheers,
Marcus
04-10-2008, 11:31 PM
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
If the correction factors are huge than the weather difference is huge. One must always post the run conditions-ie weather when making comparisons to understand the delta. Uncorrected and sae should be displayed for both before and after runs to fully understand. just my 2 cents.
04-11-2008, 12:45 AM
#33
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Looking for a new toy.
) frequent, with a large population of various dyno users...some discussion at the following link.http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...470&highlight=
My car put down 264hp on a DD machine, where SLK55's typically hit ~300 on dynojets. I know my particular car is not down on power as it consistently hits 110-111 trap speeds at the track, one such visit being just days before my dyno run.
04-11-2008, 01:06 AM
#34
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this is a simple read and gives the basics for preference of an eddy current dyno:
http://www.perfengine.com/dynoinfo.htm
04-11-2008, 10:40 AM
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W211 E55
while building/tuning my ducati and hearing so many untruths about why competent tuners couldn't tune ducati's new "r" version homologation race bike to run worth a damn except at wot, or run properly on the street, i discovered why you need an eddy current dyno for any "real" tuning.
The ability to load the car for tuning is the deal maker.
Dynapak even eliminates the tire/roller interface for even more accurate readings....you can see the dip in the curve when the alternator engages !!!
I greatly prefer a Dyno Dynamics or Dynapak for tuning.
05-05-2008, 02:50 PM
#37
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
This is a very interesting thread, I don't know how I missed it. Thanks Marcus and e1000 for the great write-up, it was very helpful 
So to conclude this dyno comparisons...... do you guys recommend I dyno my car on a dynojet or find a shop with a dyno dynamics machine?
So to conclude this dyno comparisons...... do you guys recommend I dyno my car on a dynojet or find a shop with a dyno dynamics machine?
05-05-2008, 03:36 PM
#38
MBWorld Fanatic!
This is a very interesting thread, I don't know how I missed it. Thanks Marcus and e1000 for the great write-up, it was very helpful
So to conclude this dyno comparisons...... do you guys recommend I dyno my car on a dynojet or find a shop with a dyno dynamics machine?
So to conclude this dyno comparisons...... do you guys recommend I dyno my car on a dynojet or find a shop with a dyno dynamics machine?
05-05-2008, 04:02 PM
#39
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W211 E55
05-05-2008, 05:36 PM
#41
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05-05-2008, 05:37 PM
#42
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Thread Starter
-m
05-05-2008, 05:44 PM
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
I disagree. If what you mean by "measuring" is get a chart printed out and keep it yourself, maybe. Truth is, people who use Dynojet #s try to use conventional drivetrain loss correction rates and then tout their cars are underrated from the factory or they are making 700hp at the crank. I like being conservative, not crazy. Dynojets are as far from conservative as I have ever seen.
-m
-m
05-05-2008, 05:48 PM
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W211 E55
While dynojets typically show "hero" numbers on the top end, they can still be useful in observing a power delta from mods if corrected for atmospherics.
As far as using them for the actual tuning, there are far better choices out there.
Comparing dynojet numbers to any other dyno or type of dyno is an exercise in futility and potentially misleading, IMO.
I think you guys are saying the same thing.
EDIT: Chiromikey's post landed before mine.....
As far as using them for the actual tuning, there are far better choices out there.
Comparing dynojet numbers to any other dyno or type of dyno is an exercise in futility and potentially misleading, IMO.
I think you guys are saying the same thing.
EDIT: Chiromikey's post landed before mine.....
