jangy

Are you serious? I'd keep an eye on that thing to make sure something isn't out of whack. If it leaks again, you may have some metal on your crankshaft. Good thing Creative stepped up with another warranty issue!!

vrus

Thanks everyone for your support and concerns. My only goal was to get to the bottom of what happened and figure out where the problem lies.

With more and more of these posts from people saying their keyways are damaged also I am not sure what to think at this point.

I am starting to suspect that the method used to install the crank pulley will determine if those marks show up on the keyway.

I wonder if using the "Tranny Flexplate Locking Method" vs using the "MB Tool method" leads to this damaged result????

We should take a poll of everyone who has a crank pulley off their car and see who has damage and who doesn't and figure out which installation method was used.

I would be willing to bet that all those with damage ended up having a specific method used for installation.

I know that all the installs Vadim and Sunil do are all using the Flexplate locking method. I just cant see how someone could hold onto the crank pulley with the MB supplied tool and put enough force on it to counteract the 200nm that is being applied on the bolt in the opposite direction. If you use the MB Tool and attempt to counteract those forces and can't, wont the pulley rotate slightly against the key and then possibly markup the keyway and produce the damage that we are seeing on some of these pullies??

Wouldn't this be the reason why alot of people are saying to use the "Flexplate Locking Method" ??


-----------------------------------------

The Key only protrudes onto the keyway approx 0.75" to 1".. it stops just short of the etched line you see going around the circumference of the keyway hole. Basically, the length of the damage is what I understand the length of contact of key to keyway. I always thought it was the entire length of the keyway also, but I was wrong.

Al,

What the heck does this all mean? That pulley came off a STOCK car that had never been touched since it left the factory?????

I'll be honest... It's not something that would of crossed my mind.. If that pulley pic that Al posted is from a car that has never been touched since it left the factory then there are some other issues at play here.

I do suspect though that using one installation method over the other will result in this. My stock pulley had no damage and few others on here posted they have no damage.

Mine was removed and installed using the FlexPlate Locking method.

I also suspect that the amount of wobble that is seen is now directly related to how much deformation of the keyway occurs... Why else would one person's pulley wobble more/less than another?

stevebez

My OEM pulley came off my '06 after around 2500miles.. , I'll have a look at it and see if there is any keyway damage.

The other issue I think we are missing here is that these pulleys are damped. The damping method may play a role here too. The pulleys need to flex ever so slightly to allow for the harmonic damping to remain OK. Balanced and damped are not the same thing. When idling at slow speed they pulleys (and damping medium) are under quite allot of belt tension and this could throw the pulley off to one side and make it wobble, as it speeds up the centrifugal forces overcomes the belt tension / rubber compression and it straightens up. A solid (undamped) Pulley should never wobble but a rubber version will (and probably should) and if under even more tension for example from a belt wrap kit might even exagerate the wobble at slow speed even more... Excessive wobble may show signs of damping medium failure / persishing.

Anyhow how is that small dent on the pulley keyway going to make the pulley wobble? If the pulley is torqued down that thing aint going anywhere and that dent is not going to throw it off at all I think. The wobble has got to do with the pulley being damped (and damping method) and the belt tension and the keyway notch from the installation.

Anyhow thats my 2c...

Yacht Master

One other point to consider, other than how best to hold the crankshaft.
Is the method used to obtain the last quarter turn, after you have the prescribed 200NM. The use of a half inch drive with an additional 3 foot breaker bar can induce a measurable amount of run out, (yes bending the crankshaft) this could be the wobble some are seeing.

I looked at mine (stock@20K miles) runs true at idle and 2500+.
I am sure that AMG uses a calibrated impact driver to install the pulley that applies all the rotational forces concentrically to the bolt and has a means of locking the crank.
The use of a breaker bar will not apply the rotational forces concentrically necessitating more force needed to obtain the last quarter turn. In other words don't let your 250 pound tech hang and bounce off the end of a breaker bar.

sales@eurocharged.com

Good find guys....

I would be willing to purchase 2 BRAND new stock crank pulleys and bolts if someone would be willing to donate the E55 (I don't have one) and labor to test both install methods out.

Vic - Would you donate the labor to test?

phatmitzu

Same here.
My ASP wobbles slightly at idle. 10,000 miles no known issues yet.

siswati

Steve
I believe this lies at the core of the issue with respect to the low speed wobble - I suspec that in most instances this low speed wobble is deformation of the damping material caused by significant side loading. As the pulley RPM's increase the impact of the side loading is mitigated.

The keyway deformation is another matter entirely.

Just one engineer's $0.02

03e55

Keyways are supposed to be for alignment only. The interference or press fit of the balncer hub to crank snout is what holds it on and in place and also tranfers the harmonics properly. If there there is not enough interference then it will damage keyways. I have an ATI balancer on my jeep that had to be honed to interference spec, which was like 0.0007" - 0.0009" IIRC this number is based on the material and size of the dampener hub.


And every blower car I've seen running a tight or multiple belts seems to have some pulley wobble at idle.

jangy

I'm not sure what you are looking to prove, but my car will be at VRP on Monday (for HEM). I wasn't planning on leaving it, BUT would be happy to if it will lay some of this chatter to rest. Notice the elders finally begin to speak up and they can't help but to laugh at some of the petty crap we have been going through. I still believe a "bad" install caused that nip, BUT I also think it could easily be TQ down and off for fun. The keyway CAN't hold the pulley in place.



Another is not just use of tool vs locking tranny, but also how is the number reached? After all, Creative seems to have botched the install that killed my motor using the tranny lock method AND had the car on a lift. Is it done with a shove, causeing a click or is it a smooth power motion (ala George and Vadim) until the setting is reached?

I Like Soup

The same goes for mine Victor.

AMG-Driver

I can only speak for the 32K engine. ASP-Pulley now has zero wobble at idle, OEM-Pulley had NO damaged keyway or other parts when we took it off at 30.000 KM...

Rock

Now............... This is an interesting discussion!!!!

I pulled my stock pulley out of its box and took a couple of pictures so you guys could draw your own conclusions.

I never noticed any wobble or noise from the stock or Kleemann pulley but who the fukkk added the black paint to my stock pulley?

jangy

I wanna know what up with that paint, too!! Rock, you da man!! Looks like you cracked the case of the blindly engineered VRP pulley.

Andy0331

I was taking pics of other stuff & snagged a pic of my stock pulley. As far as I know, it's never been off the car until it was replaced with a Kleemann one a few weeks ago.

Not the best pics, but shows the same markings.

BrianS

I just took my stock one out too and it's looks almost identical to this with the same stained area by the keyway. Mine was only removed once as well.

jmf003

I just looked at my OEM pulley and its the exact same story: removed only once (for a VRP pulley) but it has the same deformity at the end of the key slot and the same staining.

boohooramblers

I just saw these photos and they look very similar to rotors that we see in our ultracentrifuges. When our rotors have a certain maximum amount of 'black area' (as observed by the additives in the rotor metal), we have to change the rotors due to decreased integrity of the metal to withstand shear forces.

Two plausible possibilities come to mind:

1. The pulley metal has an extreme pressure additive in it. Upon extreme pressure / torque, the area in question turns black.

2. Even without the presence of an additive, extreme pressure and heat will oxidize the carbon in the metal and turn it black.

Either way, that area around the key-way is an area where there is massive stress on the metal.

ChicagoX

Is EVERYONE sure they didn't paint it black themselves?

Good. Now we can move on from that nonsense.

sales@eurocharged.com

Jangy - We just want to figure out what is going on. VRP makes some of the best products for MB's, which is why we carried the pulleys in the first place. I want to know what happened because we are developing our own line of 5.5L pulleys and we want them to be perfect. Our C32 pulleys are TQ down the same way and don't have this issue. It could be because of the type of steel we are using, but at this point I'm not sure.

Thanks for the offering of your car, BTW.

sales@eurocharged.com

Now, the real question is.... Can these pulleys be used again, or are they now boat anchors? If we remove our stock or aftermarket pulley, is it going to cause issues?

vrus

I am looking more into this. I've taken my own pulley on and off twice so far and there is no wobble. Of course, at the time this was done, I didn't know about this issue so I didn't pay any attention to the shape of the keyway.

I think the reuse question boils down to how badly it was damaged and how much wobble there is in the pulley.

sales@eurocharged.com

Thanks...

vrus

Wanted to post an update about this situation to let you all know that it **IS** an issue.

I've been in communication with Al @ CPT. He sent out our VRP pulley, a stock E55 pulley, and a stock C32 pulley to an independent lab for a Rockwell Hardness Test.

I don't have a copy of the report here but Al will send it to me. He called me yesterday to let me know that the test results came back and the metal hardness on all 3 pullies were nearly identical.

We've concluded DEFINITEVLY that our pulley is not an issue. Al and I spent quite a bit on the phone discussing the installation procedures for these crank pullies and we both feel this issue is going to be on-going with alot of consumers out there depending on who does the install and the procedure they use.

We now know that anyone that uses the "Tranny Flexplate locking method" probably will never see this problem come to light. The reason is when you lock the flexplate it holds the crank stationary. You dont need a big guy on the other end of a long breaker bar to try and hold the crank still while someone else is trying to stretch that bolt 90degrees.. It's alot harder than it sounds.

If you are using the MB tool and trying to hold the crank pulley in place and then someone else is trying to torque the bolt down, we are thinking that the pulley must be moving enough that it is putting pressure on the key and causing the deformation of the keyway.

I wanted to open the discussion and see if there are any constructive ways we can remedy this problem?

Would making custom hardened steel keys that run the length of the keyway instead of only 0.75" be a good idea?

Let's hear some input guys because this is a problem that is inherent to all MB cars right from the factory. They fell asleep at the wheel when they designed our crank pullies as far as I am concerned.


EDIT: One more thing. Al noticed on the ASP installation instructions they only say to torque to 148lb/ft but DONT mention the 90deg stretch. I know the MB instructions say to do that..

We know that the 148lb/ft isnt what is causing the damage.. its the last 90deg of stretch that is deforming the keyway.

jangy

Mine has been off and on maybe 4 times and i don't mind going for my 5th, just to see if we can see any stress on it? I'll do all the testing (pay an engineer), if I can borrow a 178mm pulley? That would mean 2 more offs and 2 more ons

Things that get "PRESSED" on just have a limited life if you are going to play with them. I'm sure i will replace mine after a few more rounds . I'm curious to see if the new VRP one is lighter and see what the real size is....

jangy

Victor, I'm not so sure that MB dropped a ball here. Think about it, there was no damage to either car. As Vadim said, the purpose of the keyway is simply to assist in alignment. It is in no way meant to withstand TQ.

First, do we know that the slight chip at the tip is an issue? Why not consider the pulley and keyway (including seal from time to time) just consumables, IF WE ARE GOING TO BE PLAYING WITH THEM? I don't mean for those that don't play. Anyhow, I'd say no to reinforcing anything on the crank side. I think that area is meant to be the weak link so you don't kill your engine. The "key" (no pun intended) is to get the costs down to "normal" prices.

I think using a proper lift and getting leverage on the breaker is key. The angle between the two people matters, lots of things to consider.

BTW, what happenned to the various sized outers of the first generation VRP pulleys? I thought that one of the selling points was that once installed, all you had to do was change the outer ring? Hook me up with some rings!! LOL!!

p.s. I'll paypal today for the HEMs .