AMGSC

Since the W211 AMG section is the most mod heavy here...

I am considering the following and need any advice I can get...

Forged vs. Cast Pistons - Any major difference?
Best brand for MB? Manley or CP or other...

Titanium vs. 4340 Steel Connecting Rods - Differences? Titanium worth it?
Best brand for MB? Pauter, Manley or other

Titanium oversized 1mm Intake & Exhaust Valves - Worth it?
Best brand for MB? Ferrera or other

If there are any tuner/engine upgrade shops that can give me a quote, I am ready to start the project today.

I am also considering boring out my 5.5litre to a 6.1litre like Brabus does for C55s but the cost has too be much less than Brabus. This displacment increase must also be compatible with my Kleemann SC and two Garrett twin turbos. The drivetrain would also need to be upgraded to at least Maybach Guard Specs. Please PM me if you can do it complete with ECU/TCU tuning.

NitrogenBalance

Robert, your starting to sound like my girlfriend chosing an outfit. Every week it's something new my man! Keep it simple, your car is awesome. I would spend some effort getting everything running perfect and safe, then enjoy your "faster than 90% of the rest" C55. Which it probably is. If your looking for record speed keep the C55 as a daily, and buy a TTV12 platform car. I've already accepted the fate of my C43s power and started saving for a 600 or 65 car next year. Keeping the 43 though..similar thing though, for what it would cost me to get my C43 where I want it I can buy a CL600 and still have an interesting C43.

Mahle pistons are very nice for the record. You want forged. Lastly I don't think you need to got the extra effort of increasing valves and such at this point.

Happy thanksgiving.

AMGSC

Thanks for mentioning Mahle pistons...I was insistent on forged but Titanium or not is the big question now.

I'm still going to pick up a 2006 SL65 when it drops to around $50K but just enjoy hacking this car as a hobby and learning experience.

jangy

Forged is the only way to go. I have no clue what advantages a cast one would have so I am confused if it is even available.
The rest, it really depends on what is worth it to you and what your goal is with your car.

How is your car running now? I haven't kept up with it so I dunno where you are now. I didn't even know you had added 2 turbos. If the car is healthy (as in repaired), then are you sure you want to get into the bottom again? What is the goal and what are the gains?

As far as doing a full on 6.1 bore out, I'd find it very interesting as long as you understand that you are going even farther out on the ledge. Have you considered a new C63? Just a thought, since it is a 6.2l. If you love your platform then consider looking at what the others have done with your drivetrain to get some serious power. Make sure you aren't just being unique but also productive. Not talking trash, but make sure all of your exotic mods can beat the pants off of any other N/A 55. Ahmad's 208 CLK55 just ran numbers comparable to a stage 5 E55. He has a butt load of mods that may be a stronger bang for the buck than titanium fittings.

jangy

DELICIOUS!!!!

AMGSC

I would never consider a C63. They are 12:1 CR. You can't even supercharge them as is. You would have to hack it just as I've hacked my C55 already.

As for Ahmad's blackbenzz, Congrats to him on having basically the same setup as mine minus the cams and air vents in the headlights. He's running 8psi just like me. The goals for my exotic mods will be possibly 8's 1/4 as it will be a full-on race car with close to 1000hp.

blackbenzz

Wait a second, you want two GT turbos and the kleemann sc? Wow, you have very high goals my friend. Forged is the only way to go internally. I have a built trans from Southern Hot Rod and so far it has done its job well Why bore it to 6.1L? You dont want thin cylinder walls if you want to make high boost. Your goal of going 8's is a HUGE undertaking. I would build the engine and put two turbos (take off the charger). Making the power is just the beginning of going 8's. You have to make SERIOUS power to go 8's and have to be able to put it to the ground.

Nocturnal-G

While your at it Robert... cryo-treat your engine.

AMGSC

If the 6.1 can be sleeved successfully without tapping the water jackets then it would work just as the Brabus 6.1 C55s have worked. I would probably have to sell the Kleemann Twin-Screw when I put the extra large AAA sized turbos in. since the larger displacement will give me enough torque down low. Traction and drivetrain will also be modified with the engine.

NitrogenBalance

Last year I almost yanked my mill for a build up and swap the SC for a centrifi and alot of boost. I was at the same point in terms of what bore. We were going to use my 4.3 block instead of swapping a factory 5.5. We were going to bore out to about 5.0L or so to keep a good amount of meat between the cylinders oposed to boring all out and having the neighbors living too close. I think the C36 turbo kits fail alot due to close and thin cylinder walls.

jangy

There is a huge difference between running similar setups and having it work. The reason I suggested his is because it does work. He has shown the numbers. You need to make sure that each step you take adds something to the next. Adding more mods doesn't make it faster. Tuning it will.

Last thing, if you are serious about even 9s and 1000hp then make sure to plan it all out ahead of time. No disrespect meant, but your setup is simply not going to pull that type of performance numbers on random mods alone and the Brabus build isn't really representative of what you are doing since the only thing in common is a bore out to 6.1. Brabus dumped a bunch of money into that setup to build a name. I'm not saying that you can't do it. I am saying that Brabus' intention was never to build a true performance beast. It was to sell hardware and not the parts that made up the Brabus 6.1. If you attempt a cheap copy, you will likely fall short since they actually spent a pretty penny to get it done as well. Point being, they were not charging themselves the Brabus MB tax and still spent a load.

Either way, not trying to derail you. Honestly, your journey has been an interesting one for many here and we have also learned. I'm actually all for you taking this on and letting us know how it is going, but I want to make
sure that you understand the playing field this time. I hate to see a mod head get frustrated in the middle of a build for any reason and the last 2 times with you have been tough for the tuners and you. That is honestly why i tried to say C63. I wanted your car gone!! HAHA!! Goodluck in whatever you try....

MHP

The limiting factor for the blown 55s is not bottom end displacement, just as with any other FI app it's the size of the blower that ultimately determines how much hp/tq you can make. Forget sleeving, you're just compromising the integrity of the OEM design for a few inches that won't make a bit of difference.
You want 2618 forged pistons. CP and Diamond are two of the best to consider, we use CPs on all our builds. They aren't cheap but the quality and finish machining is immaculate.
As for rods you could probably get away with 4340 forged H beams from Manley, just make sure you upgrade to ARP 2000 7/16" rod bolts (instead of 3/8"). If you want to overbuild or see yourself turning 7k rpm or making 800rw+ then go with 4340 billet I beams from Manley. Why Manley over Oliver, Carillo, etc? Even though they all weigh within a few grams of each other manleys carry more mass in the big end of the rod (where all rods tend to oval over time), Olivers and Carillo's carry more mass in the neck of the rod--where no rod, even a 4340 forged H has ever failed on it's own accord hydralock notwithstanding.
Quality Ti valves are around $100 per valve, I would personally save the $, go with a nice stainless set and put the $ not spent on the valves into the bottom end. Forget Ti rods, they are also a waste of $ in this app and won't live nearly as long as a 4340 rod.
If you want you can PM or call me to further discuss your options.

Thanks
Andy
614 940 9523


edit: Just saw that you plan on going with twins (if so, ditch the blower, it's just going to be a restriction) in which case you'll want inconel exhaust valves.

Yes we can also ECU/TCU tune your car.

jangy

Hehe, I was gonna say you may be a good tester (for the board, not in life) for the MHP setup. No matter what you do, you will need ECU tuning. No matter. Also, you will need TCU. I hate to see the SC go, but just promise we will still see some bottom end grunt.

AMGSC

Andy,
You sound pretty knowledgable. I will give you a call soon.

silence

what are you going to do to the chassis to run 8s?

I don't think you know what you are getting into...

I've followed multiple builds on bimmerforums on somewhat similar cars that resulted in those kind of numbers and the power isn't the issue. Notice that I don't even have personal experience and have only followed builds so I'm only smart enough to know what I don't know. $$$$ or $$$$$ or even $$$$$$ may not be all it takes.



Do we have a list of independent shops that can/will build and customize the m113 motors?

MHP

We've done everything from Cosworth F1 V8s to 3500hp blown alcohol funny cars to 233hp/L NHRA ProStock bike motors to TT 1700rw+ Ford GTs. So yes, we can do any MB motor as well.

BlownV8

Sleeving the engine is a good idea for what you want to achieve but you have to make sure you deal with a company that has done this extensively. The cast iron sleeve will be stronger than aluminum and will fare much better under higher pressures that you would need to achieve your goals. The cast iron will not trumpet like an aluminum bore under very high pressure. It will also enable you to run any forged aluminum piston. Otherwise, you will need to run coated pistons that are compatable with an Alusil bore. The only coated pistons that I know will work in an Alusil engine are made by Mahle and Kolbenschmidt.

Read this before letting anyone touch your engine. There are plenty of "tuners" that will do the wrong thing to your engine for a bunch of money. http://www.kolbenschmidt.com.tr/pdf/...804-02_WEB.pdf

AMGSC

Thanks!!! Now this is the kind of advice I was waiting for along with Andy's and several other posts! Advice like this TRUELY demonstrates the INCREDIBLE VALUE of mbworld.com

So is Alusil similar to the Nicasil coating that the AMG cylinders are lined with? I always wondered if getting the new bored out cylinders would need to be Nicasil coated. I found companies that do that on the net but don't know if it's needed or how much it would cost.

c32AMG-DTM

AMGSC, I look forward to following the latest evolution of your C55 build.

That said, I do have one question regarding the "coming soon" section of your sig. - CF crank shaft? Never heard of that; did you mean "drive shaft"? They are different...

BlownV8

Where did you get the information that the M113 had a Nikasil coating? The M156 of the 63 has T-W-A-S, twin wire arc spray, coating on the cylinder bores but this was not on the M113 supercharged engine.

AMGSC

Thanks for straightening me out. So what is the coating on the M113 cylinder walls?

AMGSC

You're right. typo. I meant Evosport's Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft soon to be released...for the C55

Gid_E_Up

Has anyone successfully done port work on the 5.5 heads with flow data and dyno numbers to back it up? I've been off these boards for a few years and would be interested to know. NO Assumptions. Just facts.

TTAMG

instead of buying titanium rods put more money in the heads. I know oliver billet 4340 rods can handle a lot of power. They have made me many different custom lengths.

BlownV8

It is Alusil which is a silica impregnated aluminum. You have to do a multi step process on a Sunnen machine to get the silica to the surface of the cylinder wall. Once it is properly honed, the cylinders of the Alusil engine have incredible anti-wear characteristics. However, you can't run an uncoated piston in an Alusil bore. Aluminum pistons in an Aluminum bore do not work unless either the piston or the bore is coated.

There are a few different options. You can run a resleeved engine with iron bore. Use pistons from Mahle or Koblenschmidt or use a custom coated piston. It's hard to find a custom aluminum piston with coating that has the proper expansion characteristics to work in the Alusil bore. You will spend much more for the pistons from Mahle or Koblenschmidt but it will be money well spent. The last option is to have the cylinder walls coated with a dissimilar surface as they did on the 63's M156 or BMW and Porsche did with the use of Nikasil.