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Position of X-Pipe important?

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Old 01-02-2009, 05:38 PM
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Position of X-Pipe important?

Since there's not a whole lot of E500 exhaust modding going on, I thought I'd pose the question here. I'm having my 2nd cats and resonator removed on Monday. Shop doing it wants to install the x-pipe right where the 2nd cats would be. I've seen most people install the x-pipe where the resonator would've been. Any problems with this setup?
Old 01-02-2009, 06:08 PM
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the position of everything to do with your exhaust is important if you're looking for optimum performance. it's part of the reason many people see a loss of power by just slapping things in/on their exhaust.

not that you're going to see much/any performance out of it but you're likely better off with them where you're shop is wanting to put them instead of way back at the resonator.
Old 01-02-2009, 06:25 PM
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Exhaust tuning is very important, and not very easy to do correctly. I think most of us put the x-pipe where the resonator is out of convenience since we are usually removing the resonator at the same time. That however, does not make it the ideal position.
Old 01-02-2009, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgodd
Exhaust tuning is very important, and not very easy to do correctly. I think most of us put the x-pipe where the resonator is out of convenience since we are usually removing the resonator at the same time. That however, does not make it the ideal position.
Actually it's easy for a fabricator to find the optimum X/H-Pipe location
Old 01-02-2009, 09:22 PM
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I have mine at the resonator but placing them in place of the secondaries is better for the E55ks since that is where we lose more backpressure.

Every setup is different. Honestly, you will not see much if any gain with it on the E500. I would put it at the resonator IF AT ALL. I like the thud thud sound of a V8 at idle though.
Old 01-02-2009, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by E55Pilot
Actually it's easy for a fabricator to find the optimum X/H-Pipe location
Actually, I was referring to total exhaust tuning; taking into account everything from header size/length, to collector type/size, to overall exhaust diameter and length and muffler placement... But I'm sure you knew that already right??
Old 01-02-2009, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
I have mine at the resonator but placing them in place of the secondaries is better for the E55ks since that is where we lose more backpressure.

Every setup is different. Honestly, you will not see much if any gain with it on the E500. I would put it at the resonator IF AT ALL. I like the thud thud sound of a V8 at idle though.
Yeah, I certainly understand that I'm not going to get any performance gains, I'm just looking for a bit throatier tone. I wasn't sure if placing it closer to the manifold would cause any unwanted results.
Old 01-03-2009, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Benz-O-Rama
Yeah, I certainly understand that I'm not going to get any performance gains, I'm just looking for a bit throatier tone. I wasn't sure if placing it closer to the manifold would cause any unwanted results.

I don't like it that far up because you lose all the characteristics of a dual exhaust. It becomes a single from that point on. That may or may not be good for scavenging, but I hate it for street duals...
Old 01-03-2009, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
I don't like it that far up because you lose all the characteristics of a dual exhaust. It becomes a single from that point on. That may or may not be good for scavenging, but I hate it for street duals...
Wait, you and your scientific mumbo jumbo is confusing me. After the primary cats, they will join at an x-pipe then break back out into duel plumbing. Then back to the mufflers and out to atmosphere. At no time does it become a single outlet system.

And in all actuality, the x-pipe will only be placed about 18 inches closer to the primary cats then if it was installed in the resonator's location. My question was really asking if there would be any adverse affects with moving closer to the primary cats.


Drugs are bad, Jangy. Bad.
Old 01-03-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
I don't like it that far up because you lose all the characteristics of a dual exhaust. It becomes a single from that point on. That may or may not be good for scavenging, but I hate it for street duals...
HUH???

WTF are you talking about
Old 01-03-2009, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by E55Pilot
HUH???

WTF are you talking about
I am talking about the sound. I understand it may not be good for performance, but I like the old school cars where you can put your hand in front of the exhaust and feel left and right banks hit.
Old 01-03-2009, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Benz-O-Rama
Wait, you and your scientific mumbo jumbo is confusing me. After the primary cats, they will join at an x-pipe then break back out into duel plumbing. Then back to the mufflers and out to atmosphere. At no time does it become a single outlet system.

And in all actuality, the x-pipe will only be placed about 18 inches closer to the primary cats then if it was installed in the resonator's location. My question was really asking if there would be any adverse affects with moving closer to the primary cats.


Drugs are bad, Jangy. Bad.
2 into 1 into 2 is not True duals as defined by old school V8s. Nothing scientific there.

The position of the X-pipe will affect the backpressure and scavenging. As bobgod said, that is a matter of tuning. Your car honestly does not care nearly as much as a forced induction would. Putting the X farther up will make it SOUND smoother. You may like that or you may not. My personal preference for SOUND is to be able to hear both banks as in an old school V8. Low RPMs and a nice thud thud simply can not be duplicated with a V6 or straight anything is all.....

You are over-analyzing...
Old 01-03-2009, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
2 into 1 into 2 is not True duals as defined by old school V8s. Nothing scientific there.
Isn't this the OEM setup? Does the resonator not act like a pseudo x-pipe? I've never seen a cross-section of our resonators but at first glance it certainly looks like only 1 chamber in there.
Old 01-03-2009, 03:54 PM
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I'm confused
Old 01-03-2009, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 155
I'm confused
Don't worry so is Jangy.

He'd be REALLY disappointed to look under a NASCAR Stock car and See a wide variety of X and H pipes.

All cars be they forced induction or naturally aspirated benefit from exhaust scavenging.
Old 01-03-2009, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by E55Pilot
Don't worry so is Jangy.

All cars be they forced induction or naturally aspirated benefit from exhaust scavenging.
Although in theory this is true, once you have a positive pressure wave from the intake coming off its seat, aka supercharger, there is NO scavenging effect. In a nut shell, FI cars like a VERY free flowing exhaust, PERIOD. Prime example, F1 or NHRA, not much of a x pipe or scavenging going on with these boy's engines

See yeah

PS: Check out Kennebell, or vortech for some exhaust theroy 101
Old 01-03-2009, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
2 into 1 into 2 is not True duals as defined by old school V8s. Nothing scientific there.

The position of the X-pipe will affect the backpressure and scavenging. As bobgod said, that is a matter of tuning. Your car honestly does not care nearly as much as a forced induction would. Putting the X farther up will make it SOUND smoother. You may like that or you may not. My personal preference for SOUND is to be able to hear both banks as in an old school V8. Low RPMs and a nice thud thud simply can not be duplicated with a V6 or straight anything is all.....

You are over-analyzing...
Hey Jangy, do you like this sound?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG-eBXj0WEs
Old 01-03-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MRAMG1
Although in theory this is true, once you have a positive pressure wave from the intake coming off its seat, aka supercharger, there is NO scavenging effect. In a nut shell, FI cars like a VERY free flowing exhaust, PERIOD. Prime example, F1 or NHRA, not much of a x pipe or scavenging going on with these boy's engines

See yeah

PS: Check out Kennebell, or vortech for some exhaust theroy 101
Exhaust scavenging is exhaust scavenging, and it is irrespective of naturally aspirated or forced induction engines. Scavenging starts before the headers and is present in our engines, as well as N/A V8's.

The V-8 engines we typically modify for increased output are normally categorized as four-cycle units. Although pretty much the case for a regular street machine, this is far from being the case for a high-performance race engine. If we consider a well-developed race engine, the usual induction, compression, expansion (power stroke) and exhaust cycles have a fifth element added (Fig. 2). With a race cam and a tuned-length exhaust system, negative pressure waves traveling back from the collector will scavenge the combustion chamber during the exhaust/intake valve overlap period (angle 5 in Fig. 2). To understand the extent to which this can increase an engine's ability to breathe, let's consider the cylinder and chamber volumes of a typical high-performance 350 cubic-inch V-8.

Assuming for a moment no flow losses, the piston traveling down the bore will pull in one-eighth of 350 cubic inches. That's 43.75 cubic-inch, or in metric, 717cc. If the compression ratio is say 11:1, the total combustion chamber volume above this 717cc will be 71.7cc. If a negative pressure wave sucks out the residual exhaust gases remaining in the combustion chamber at TDC, then the cylinder, when the piston reached BDC, will contain not just 717 cc but 717 + 71.7 cc = 788.7 cc. The result is that this engine now runs like a 385 cubic-inch motor instead of a 350. That scavenging process is, in effect, a fifth cycle contributing to total output.

But there are more exhaust-derived benefits than just chamber scavenging....
Taken from this article: http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...exh/index.html
Old 01-03-2009, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Benz-O-Rama
Isn't this the OEM setup? Does the resonator not act like a pseudo x-pipe? I've never seen a cross-section of our resonators but at first glance it certainly looks like only 1 chamber in there.

Yes, Clayton....the OEM setup has two spots where it crosses. there is a tiny crossover at the primary cats and then the resonator. BUT, keep in mind that MB wants it to be SMOOOOTH....
Old 01-03-2009, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by E55Pilot
Don't worry so is Jangy.

He'd be REALLY disappointed to look under a NASCAR Stock car and See a wide variety of X and H pipes.

All cars be they forced induction or naturally aspirated benefit from exhaust scavenging.
I understand that scavenging is good for all types and isn't it even so that the X pipe could help non aspirated more, since it does not have the downsides of playing with backpressure?

You can blame me for the confusion, but X-pipes and their true worthwhile gains have long been a controversy here...
Old 01-03-2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
Yes, Clayton....the OEM setup has two spots where it crosses. there is a tiny crossover at the primary cats and then the resonator. BUT, keep in mind that MB wants it to be SMOOOOTH....
Fair enough. I don't dislike the smooth sound. I'm just looking for a bit more grunt with no loss of HP/torque. It sounds like a secondary cat and resonator delete and inserting an x-pipe, regardless of location, will accomplish this. I really just wanted to confirm that moving the x-pipe closer to the 1st cats, instead of placing it where the resonator used to live, would not cause any loss of performance.

Hopefully.

The good news is, I'll have pre/post dyno results to confirm.
Old 01-03-2009, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgodd
Exhaust scavenging is exhaust scavenging, and it is irrespective of naturally aspirated or forced induction engines. Scavenging starts before the headers and is present in our engines, as well as N/A V8's.



Taken from this article: http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...exh/index.html
Excellent.

and yes it does work on a supercharged engine, just like it works on a NA motor, we just have less of the effect due to our lowered (Virtually Nil) overlap
Old 01-03-2009, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Benz-O-Rama
Fair enough. I don't dislike the smooth sound. I'm just looking for a bit more grunt with no loss of HP/torque. It sounds like a secondary cat and resonator delete and inserting an x-pipe, regardless of location, will accomplish this. I really just wanted to confirm that moving the x-pipe closer to the 1st cats, instead of placing it where the resonator used to live, would not cause any loss of performance.

Hopefully.

The good news is, I'll have pre/post dyno results to confirm.
Actually don't just have them insert a x-pipe anywhere it's very easy to figure out where it goes.

Straight pipe your cat/resonator delete, then apply some spray paint to the hot pipes, where it burns off first is where you locate your X/H pipe
Old 01-03-2009, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
I understand that scavenging is good for all types and isn't it even so that the X pipe could help non aspirated more, since it does not have the downsides of playing with backpressure?

You can blame me for the confusion, but X-pipes and their true worthwhile gains have long been a controversy here...
ANyone who has tuned any V-8 knows and understands that X/H pipes are a good thing and another tuning tool.

The bigger question is what is a non aspriated motor? Electric?
Old 01-03-2009, 06:13 PM
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If I am not mistaken the best way to determine the location of the "X" is to run straight pipes all the way back, run the car and then take some infared temps of the straight pipes, the point at which it is the hottest is where you cut the pipe and fabricate your "X". This is the way several tuners/shops have done some of my cars that way and if I'mnot mistaken that is how Evosport does theirs too.


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