storm

quote=LZH;3393461]You have a point....sure they could have gotten 800+hp, but the reliability would have gone down and the transmission would be destroyed. Although, they did say in the article that the transmission had been upgraded. Also, I think running the power through all 4 wheels is easier on the drive train than just turning the rear wheels.
--------

quote= Didn't Kleemann develop a 6.3 Twin Turbo package for the ML as well a while back? I think it made 800 hp or so?

--------------------------------------------------------

More than 800hp tends to be too much power and ruin the handling of a car,at least for street use..

well part of the reason was when they built the SL 65 brabus T13 v12 with like 730 hp and 800 torque,Originally ..and it got terrible reviews from car testers
and race drivers,, and the car mags because although it was fast,
it handled terrbile cause it simply had too much power and was always spinning the wheels or the engine ECU was cutting power to 1/2 to control the car..

they have since toned down the car I believe to like 622 and 738 torque, second time they had to reduce power..which strangely enough is right around where mercedes has it in teh first place lol

POWER is easy,, not hard to get 900 HP and 1000 torque,, hennesey and brabus have done it tons of times, the hard part is keeping it from tearing the car apart,
and spinning out all the time and killing the driver..

the weak part over 700 hp is always been the TIRES,, street tires, and even moderate racing tires cannot handle that sort of power, and spin, shred and eventually burst.
when they are able to make a super sticky Uber compound, that will not spin or deform with 800+ HP then you can start making cars with more..

true racing cars you see, like INDY< NASCAR, FORMULA one, PRO STOCK DRAG, etc, all have specially deisnged one off tires, that literally are NOTHING like street tires,
and made of exotic compounds, and adhesives, and hand made, with special vulcanizing processes and cost like $2000-4000 ea , so they are built to handle 1500-4000 hp..

if you watch the TOP gear review with the STIGG, who is one of the best FORMULA ONE drivers.. around, he said the brabus SL V12 was uncontrollable, and so did
the host of the show..and considering the drive the fastest cars in teh world for a living,, imaging how bad a 1000hp brabus would be in a amatuers hands

Hennensey Cars of TX has the same problem with their 1200-1500 HP VIPERS and VETTEs,, all who drove them said it was not drivable around corners or on the street too much power for the chasis.. on SUPERCARS, they all lost to porsches, and others because around a racetrack they were spinning all over the place..

for practicallity,, you should really limit HP to about 800, which is why
KOENIGG, ASCARI and FERRARI, and LAMBO, and ZONDA and SSC Ultimate Aero
all limit their power around 800 HP yet are some of the fastest cars in the world

BUGATTI is the one exception with 1000 HP because it cost $1.5 million and has 16 cylinders, 4 turbos, electric aircraft wings that pop up and stabilize the car, and world class ECU electronics from F1 cars.. distributing power to each wheel independantly with 4 wheel drive and 4 sequential turbos that can build power more evenly, over time.. with less turbo push..

TOP GEAR BRABUS review

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dfff-s2OMc

like Jeremy said so well, Mercedes spends like almost 2 million dollars a day on R and D, hard to make the SL 65 alot better.. except for lightening it up
which is what they did for the SL 63 black series by 250 lbs

here you can see Video of the 2 fastest supercars in the world bar none,,
the BUGATTI, and the ZONDA F,, both do like 255+ and did lap times on the race track of under 1:20, which is like 10 seconds faster than LAMBO
FERRARI, or PORSCHE twin turbo.. or anything else

ZONDA vs BUGATTI on TRACK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kk8qk5iW5Y


MEET THE ZONDA...F made by ex LAMBORGHINI EXEC, Italian styling with a German AMG V12 AMG 7.3 liter..

best exhaust sound ever, ZONDA,F with F 1 exhaust sound.. much better than ferrari

OH and guys, its a mercedes AMG engine V 12, same basic as in SL 65, but bored to 7.3 liters.. WHOA
as I keep telling people you can make a mercedes sound like a F 1 car, or ferrari,, its all in the valves,compression and exhaust

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiroepFi1fw

5th gear road test ZONDA F with 7.3 liter AMG V 12 SL 65 motor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrCl8...eature=related


Pagani Zonda F Nurburgring race track full lap record in HD 720p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euHkl9SVYTY

enjoy and drool

Zod

I believe the engine is not form the 65 my friend its an old engine that was in the SL 73 search for it was at 525 or somthing along those lines way back inthe 90's

storm

not true,, the car was first made in 2005, and is still made TODAY
THIS IS THE F serious ZONDA new with newer engine NOT THE OLD ORIGINAL ZONDA

that old 7.3 engine you mentioned is no longer around, are you actually saying that they are using 20 year old engines that are no longer around for currant production cars. lol

nahh no way
they may have bought one for a test prototype at first but AMG makes the engines for this car, like 5 documentaries say so, and show the newer AMG factory owned by mercedes, NOT the original one that was private.

if you look at some of the videos you can see its similiar to the SL 65 engine with lots of mods..

its bored and stroked to 7.3
just like brabus does with the AMG engines,, not hard at all..

Thericker

Yes I'm almost certain that's not BITURBO'd 65 motor, it's a N/A V12 NO way they could make that Pagani sound like that w/Turbo's on..

DCMETRO22Z

Mega-False.


All the pagani zonda engines are from the basis of the 6.0 48 Valves Engines found in the old S600 W140

The very first zonda had this bone stock engine producing 394 hp. The engine was later deeply reworked by AMG, bored stroked to 7.3.

There has never been a 3 valve per cylinder engine in a PAGANI. PERIOD.

E55 Bulldog

... Besides all the small talk...haha jk... This car has become one of my all time favorite cars. I could be a blind man and still fall in love with this car. By far the best sounding car on the road.... It sounds like and F1 car.... it make me tingle inside... and a full CF body.... Haha





… and coming in 2nd…. And I mean a close 2nd…. The Apollo Gumpert S… yeah I know it has an Audi engine but this car is sick. Supposedly it can drive upside down at 200mph.

CWW

Dude, you're wrong.

The Pagani uses an M120, same engine I have in my last-gen SL600. And if you want to get right down to it, it may be older, but it's a better motor. It has 4 valves per cyl instead of 3, etc., and pushes 400hp stock and naturally aspirated, and around 430-440 with exhaust and a simple boxed tune. AMG signed a contract with Pagani to bore it out and bring the power up, but it's still just a bored/stroked M120.

In the late 1990's and early 2000s, MB went on a cost-cutting adventure, and started using modular engines to save $$$$ instead of building one-off motors like they always did before. FYI, a modular engine is where the same basic architecture is used for a whole family of engines, and they just tack on extra cylinders and that becomes basically the only difference between a V6, V8, V12, etc. The M112, M113, and M115's, as well as the M137 and M275 and M285 were all built along these lines, which lots of shared parts and designs.

The M119 V8 and M120 V12 that these things replaced are actually much more advanced, especially when comparing the 119 to the 113. The M119 is a DOHC, variable timing, 4 valve per cylinder motor, that makes more horsepower, more torque, revs higher, and gets the same gas mileage as an M113. The M113 is a less powerful, SOHC, 3 valve per cylinder design. The only benefit was cost, because now you can remove 2 cylinders and make it an M112 V6, or tack a few cylinders on and make it a V12. It was cost-cutting, pure and simple.

The older designs were more advanced, and IMHO, actually better, and apparently Pagani agrees with me since they entirely passed up the current family of motors. Still, personally, if I had twin turbos I doubt I'd be b!tching about cam design and losing a few valves. You V12tt guys have it made.

speedpeddler

Too much horsepower is just right?

I've got a friend that loved his Lingenfelter Vett's and had two of them. One, 1100 HP twin turbo and another 650 HP model. He got rid of the twin trubo 1100 horse car because he said it was just too dangerous to drive. And this is a guy with a lot of track time in some very fast cars.

He said he was always scared of the car because it would spin the tires without warning at ANY SPEED with the slightest push on the gas pedal and was really trecherous in corners.

I never had the opportunity to drive or ride in that one but I have been in the 650 horse Vette several times. Brutally fast. I can't even imagine having almost twice that power. Especially in a Vette. Yikes.

HYEPWR

I have to agree completely....Had a friend with supercharged viper...gear drive...built motor yadda yadda yadda....made 1200rwhp(maxed out the dyno as I recall). It was UNDRIVEABLE. Another friend, spent THOUSANDS on a prostreet camaro....twin turbo...it ran 190mph in the 1/4. He had it registered and plated. even at half throttle it was a real danger to people on the street.

After man years and many power configirations...I feel that for a 3700lbs 2-wheel drive car....580-630whp is just about a perfect blend of hp and wheel spin for the street. You wont be the KING OF THE HILL....but you'l be faster than almost anything you run into and the car will be fun to drive. Anything over 650whp is useless for anything but hyway roll-on's.

Thats why the E55 is nearly perfect. The guys with 180mm pulley/tb/HEM/tune are around 530whp/580lbs/ft .... The car runs very consistant 11.3-11.5 at 123-126mph. Its very fun at low speeds. In fact the only thing that would make the E55 perfect is if it could maintain its torque and raise its HP. Say 525lbs/ft from 2200 to 6500rpm and 625rwhp at the top end. That would be fantastic.

BenzBoy12

You guys talking about the S/C and T/C Vipers and Vettes, you gotta remember that these things are usually ~3000 lbs or maybe less depending on mods. Lot different than a 4400 lb Merc, so I think to have ~1000 hp in a CL65 like VRP is planning is not dangerous. I would be scared as hell to drive a vette with that much for sure, but not a mercedes.

And about the Pagani, I can't believe how far the M120 has come, that really was one of the best engines ever made. Totally different character than it started out with, and almost double the hp! It would be awesome to see a current CL or SL or S with this engine, more than a 65, imho. The reason the Brabus SV12S handled like crap has nothing to do with HP, the thing made 885 lb ft. of tq at barely off idle, and had relatively skinny tires (I think only 285s?) and frankly it's big, heavy, and the chassis is not designed for a super-technical road course like the TG track.

storm

You misunderstood,, the other guy was saying they were the old 7.3 liter engines which they are NOT..

I also never said they were 3 valve,, what I said was they are based on the AMG 12 cyl engines.. and are bored an stroked,, to 7.3

he said something stupid that they were 15 year old engines from AMG in teh 1990's,

and this is the NEW zonda F series, totaly different car not what you were talking about this is the ZONDA F and based on the newer AMG engine

the dont drop crate mercedes AMG engines in any car, brabus kleeman or zonda.. you guys are misunderstanding the point..
they start with the BLOCK, as that is the hard part with lots of engineering,, and rebuild to engine totoally with different parts of their own..

NEVER NEVER NEVER SAID they drop the exact SL 65 engine in the zonda, or SL BRABUS,, they use the engine's baisc block and some components..

jesus hope this clarifys this..

are there like mostly foriegners on this forum,? lol , its like the misunderstands and misquotes are astounding
worse than talking to the french lol

storm

NO NO,, almost any car that does not have 4 wheel drive, and alot of expensive computers, will not do well with more than 800-900 HP on a track.. there are countless reviews on alot of cars that have been bumbled up to over 800 and they handle like ****,..

teh bugatti is the exception,, there is a reason why
LAMBO, FERRARI, MERCEDES, AMG, McCalearen , ZONDA, ASCARI,KOENIGG etcetc DO not build 850hp cars for the track,, to much power to handle effectively without spenind 1 million dollars

there are literally a hundred examples,, you cant argue engineering.
if you raced you would know this,, I have driven many prototypes for Porsche and GM on many race and test tracks and I can tell you when you get to like 750 hp it starts getting ugly.. and way to hard to manage.. and becomes slower around the turns.. cause you are always correcting for the excess power..

again 4 wheel drive and sophisticated computers like on bugatti are the rare exception.. and the fact it has rear airplane flaps to glue it to the road.. with like 3 g;s downforce..

storm

exactly , well said,, my friend

the people on here that are arguing that 1000hp cars are fine and can handle are so full of crap and never raced a track or driven a car with even 750 hp.. its way to much power to handle at speed, and not constantly have to correct the car in the turns

also that much power simple cooks the brakes alot faster as you have to compensate for it in turns, and it destroys the tranny and tiires

800+ hp is strictly for drag race in straight lines, and show cars and demos unless you are going to spend 1 million dollars on
things like carbon fiber drive shafts, F 1 components, and ecu;s
McClearen chasis, and aircraft precision wings for downforce

storm

never said it had the AMG turbos on it,, when you use a amg or another companies engine, you use the basic block and design, and change everything. dood,

that is what brabus, and Kleeman do,, they dont keep a single turbo part on them.. and that is WHAT ZONDA DOES
the start with the block and rebuild THE ENTIRE ENGINE..

if you watch the BRABUS TOP GEAR VIDEO, and the other vidoes
THEY SAY THAT,,
"they start with a mercedes V12 and throw away everything except the basic enginer block ""

LISTEN carefully before you tell people they are wrong.. you misunderstood totally what I was saying,,

NEVER SAID THEY DROP THE 6.5 CRATE ENGINE IN THE ZONDA,, lol
no one does that,, the center of gravity, and engine layout would be totally WRONG for another cars chasis,, you have to rediesng the engine..
but the basics are there..

storm

[quote=CWW;3394700]Dude, you're wrong.

The Pagani uses an M120, same engine I have in my last-gen SL600. And if you want to get right down to it, it may be older, but it's a better motor. It has 4 valves per cyl instead of 3, etc., and pushes 400hp stock and naturally aspirated, and around 430-440 with exhaust and a simple boxed tune. AMG signed a contract with Pagani to bore it out and bring the power up, but it's still just a bored/stroked M120.
---------------

NO DOOD< you misquoting me and not understanding what I am saying

never said they drop the exactly SL 65 engin in teh new ZONDA,

they use the basic block and design and make alot of mods to it
this is what brabus and kleeman do as well as ZONDA..

you are talking about the old zonda,, christ, there are like 6 different models..

I was talking about the new C12 F track series.. ZONDA. the one made in the last 2-3 years.. not the one you were referring to in the 1990's lol

2005 Zonda F (C12 F) uses a 7.3 liter,625 hp not the older 6.o liter

the C12 F uses the newer AMG V12 bored to 7.3 liter, in 2005 that AMG designed..

the older C12 used the 6 liter mercedes V12 engine that mercedes designed before AMG was even making their own engines from scratch like they do now.


TOTALLY DIFFERENT talking apples and oranges

not even the same conversation..

never said it had the AMG turbos on it,, when you use a amg or another companies engine, you use the basic block and design, and change everything. dood,

that is what brabus, and Kleeman do,, they dont keep a single turbo part on them.. and that is WHAT ZONDA DOES
the start with the block and rebuild THE ENTIRE ENGINE..

if you watch the BRABUS TOP GEAR VIDEO, and the other vidoes
THEY SAY THAT,,
"they start with a mercedes V12 and throw away everything except the basic enginer block ""

LISTEN carefully before you tell people they are wrong.. you misunderstood totally what I was saying,,

NEVER SAID THEY DROP THE AMG 6.5 CRATE ENGINE IN THE ZONDA,, lol
no one does that,, the center of gravity, and engine layout would be totally WRONG for another cars chasis,, you have to redesign the engine..
but the basics are there.. they are mostly ZONDA add ons, but the basic
V 12 merc engine.

and the newer V12's are better enginers no matter what you think because AMG makes them from the ground up , amg design
NOT the older V12 you are talking about in teh 600 that MERCEDES made and amg modified.. totally different..
read on teh AMG site where they said they started making the newer engines from scratch like the M 156 etc..

I can get 3 mercedes and 2 amg engineers to tell you that first hand.

the newer merc engines have so many better features than the older ones you like I dont know where to begin.. you are generalizing without talking facts


the newer AMG engines like the M 156 are made and designed by AMG,, not the older merc engines like you talked about that are modified.

new AMG generation engines,, like 156 and the new engine in the SLS, etc are from their F1 and DTM race development

Made completely from newer high-strength aluminium,, . intake manifold featuring two integral throttle flaps,
the vertical arrangement of the intake and exhaust ducts ensures perfect cylinder charging.
new Bucket tappets in the cylinder heads allow a stiff valve train and therefore high engine speeds. Variable camshaft adjustment, a particularly rigid closed-deck crankcase and cylinder walls with a new, revolutionary LDS coating are further attributes of this ultra-modern V8 engine made by Mercedes-AMG.

comparing the newer AMG ground up engines they designe and build with the older mercedes V12;s that mercedes designed and AMG modified is retarded
that are totally 2 different things,, you confusing the two

CWW

Well...yes Pagani and AMG came up with a modified M120 for the Zonda. We all agree on that much.

But you do have to admit, the horsepower and torque ratings on the Zonda are suspiciously similar to the M120 7.3 motor that AMG used in the 2000-2002 SL73 (575hp).

And you also have to admit that when the SL73 run ended in 2002, Zonda production began shortly thereafter. Now, neither Pagani nor AMG is going to be giving us forum members any engine diagrams, so we'll never exactly get to the bottom of it.

But it seems to me, that there's a very high likelihood that AMG borrowed from their existing SL73 parts/design bin rather than going from the ground-up for the Zonda motor. Why spend a fortune on R&D when you already have something that fits the bill?

Zod

agree, also ps storm dont go storming on us man chill
you mentioned 65, a new v12 etc..it is no no bigi ;p

I also have to agree on the streets the 65 in stock form is too much as is, unless you upgrade the tiers/ LSD toe links etc

alot of the popele modding are doing it for the track (1/4 mile), if they were to run on the streets from a stop they will be a yellow blinking light for some time

CWW

Ok Storm, let's pay attention, because I only want to go through explaining this to you one time...

No misquoting here. It's all above in black and white.

Nobody said you said that. You were confusing which V12 block the Zonda uses, and I corrected you.

Nobody is, or ever was, arguing that. It's an AMG modified M120. There is no argument on that. Never was.

There's no difference. They all use a Mercedes M120 V12 block, modified to varying degrees by AMG depending on the model.

IIRC, the first Zonda was a 2000 model. And they all use an AMG modified M120 anyway, so I'm still not sure what your point is...

No, it uses a 6L M120 that has been bored out to 7.3L. It's the same block, not "newer" not "older". The same block.

This is getting repetitive. It's an M120 block bored out to 7.3 liters. And I suspect AMG just used a big chunk of the design from the pre-existing 2000-2002 AMG SL73 motor, since the power ratings are similar. Don't you think 7.3 liters is kind of a "random" number for AMG to just pick out of a hat, unless they were using their existing design? If you say no, I'm going to laugh...

AMG makes exactly one motor on their own, the M156. That's it. With that one exception, they do not design their own engines from the ground up, they just modify and assemble Mercedes blocks.

No, it's not.

See above.

The M120 V12 never came with turbos, so I'm not sure what your point is. My point is, however, that the engine is a Mercedes M120, bored out to 7.3L by AMG. I don't get where the confusion is?

Huh? Who ever said anything about turbos? We are talking about the BLOCK here. It's an M120 and NOT an M137, M275, or M285. And they don't rebuild the entire engine, if you think about it for even 2 seconds you'd realize there's a large probability that AMG is using their pre-existing 7.3L V12 to supply Pagani. Like I said before, you don't think that 7.3L is a little random to just pick out of a hat? The SL73 produced 575hp and the ZondaF 594hp. Exact same displacement, exact same block, and only a 19hp difference, but you don't think AMG is using any of the same design? Gimme a break

Well, first off, and this is just a general comment, I love top gear but they're not exactly the most accurate show going. By a long shot. Secondly, yes, AMG is a tuning shop...that's what they do, modify engines. No big surprise here.

There are a lot of highly modified engines on this board, so I guess you would say that someone with a VRP 700 package no longer has an M113? Your argument makes no sense. Changing the cams and other tidbits, and stroking it and boring it out, doesn't make a "different" motor. It's just modified.

And even then, it's really the same 7.3L V12 that AMG already had in inventory. So it's still not a "new" design like you're claiming, even if you go with your claim that modified somehow = a whole different engine.

I didn't misunderstand anything. First, you tried to say they weren't using an M120, and now you're falling back on "well it's modified", when nobody argued it wasn't. But even then, it's just the AMG 7.3L they ALREADY were using in other cars since 2002ish, it's not some whole new thing like you're arguing.

Now you're contradicting yourself, acknowledging it's the same basic motor, which is what we've been debating for 2 pages now. So ok, well, obviously I agree with that.

However, they didn't do it for center of gravity like you're implying, or anything else like that. They did it because the M120 is a better naturally aspirated motor than the M275/285. The M275 is actually smaller and lighter, owing to its smaller displacement, but it makes up for it with F/I. If they were concerned with weight, the M275 actually would have been a better choice.

With the exception of the M156 (which was never used in a Zonda, so what's the point?), AMG assembles and modifies Mercedes designs. They don't build from the ground up, they just modify what's already there. They get a crate full of parts from Mercedes, and they change things around and assemble it. That's it. AMG isn't casting their own M120 blocks, man, I hate to break it to you...

Yeah, I'd love to see you get Dieter Zeitsche on the phone to explain this to me, let's set it up! LOL. The M156, maybe, but not the M120 or any of this other stuff you're talking about.

I'm not generalizing at all. I pointed out very specific differences between the blocks I mentioned. You evidently don't know much about engine design, because SINCE WHEN is 25% fewer valves per cylinder, 2 less cams, 10% less displacement, cast vs. forged connecting rods, and a modular design vs. a ground-up design, ever "better"?

That's literally the only one. And was it ever used in a Zonda? No. You're the one comparing apples to oranges on that one.

Ok, and what Zonda came with an M156? That's right...NONE.

Wrong, M120 is also a lightweight aluminum block.

M120 also has two independent TB's. No difference there.

Same on both. Look at a picture of an M120, and check out the vertical intake manifolds. No difference there.

Same on M120.

Closed crankcase is same on M120. And this "revolutionary" LDS cylinder wall coating is really more of a cheap replacement for casting the entire inner block lining in Alusil. You should work in the marketing department...

It would be ground up "engine" not "engines", since the only one AMG arguably builds on their own is the M156, and that was never used in a Zonda in the first place.

And how is comparing the M120 used in the Zonda to the newer AMG engines "retarded", when all of the features you're bragging about on the newer motors were all present first on the M120! That's part of my underlying appreciation of the motor, because it is way ahead of its time. There's a reason Pagani chose that motor over the current crop of modular engines!

And I'm not confusing anything. The original point here was what motor they use in the Zonda. You were incorrect. All the rest of this debate doesn't change that.

Akademiks

Wow. And in the end, without Zonda's engine diagrams, we'll never know the truth.

Storm, whoooooooooooosah my brotha

HYEPWR

CWW.......How long did you spend on that post bruther??

lolo....holy cow that was loooooooooooooong.....lol...

storm

[quote=CWW;3396727]Well...yes Pagani and AMG came up with a modified M120 for the Zonda. We all agree on that much.

But you do have to admit, the horsepower and torque ratings on the Zonda are suspiciously similar to the M120 7.3 motor that AMG used in the 2000-2002 SL73 (575hp).

And you also have to admit that when the SL73 run ended in 2002, Zonda production began shortly thereafter. Now, neither Pagani nor AMG is going to be giving us forum members any engine diagrams, so we'll never exactly get to the bottom of it.



hi

no, the ZONDA C12 F is made in 2005 and has 625 hp I believe,,

but hey whats 50hp between friends,, all are great cars man

storm

quote "AMG makes exactly one motor on their own, the M156. That's it. With that one exception, they do not design their own engines from the ground up, they just modify and assemble Mercedes blocks."

WRONG
dude,, dont talk to me like I dont know cars,, been a test engineer and
prototype test drive for GM and PORSCHE. lol and driven more supercars, and on more tracks, that I care to remember


dude you are so wrong,, I have talked to AMG execs at dealers,
and at the AMG events,,

if you go to the damn AMG page,, you will see in their press releases as well they are NOW not modifying MERCEDES blocks,, at all,

from the 156 engine 6.3 liter on,,they have made the company desicion
to be more automonous, and design all their futures engines from the ground up,, ask them, you are way behind the times,,

if bother to read the SLS mercedes post on this forum you will see they are making that engine front scratch too, its NOT a mercedes block or design its AMG

if you understood the differences between the mercedes modified engines
you are talking about like the M 113 etc,, and the V 12 600

and the differeces AMG is NOW doing designing from the ground up new designs like the M156 and the NEW SLS amg engine

here are the differences between the older merc engines you mention and the newer ground up AMG engines
and AMG does not modify the basic mercedes engine cause the basic merc engine has NONE of these features

1 DIfferent variable intake manifold featuring two integral throttle flaps,

2 vertical arrangement of the intake and exhaust ducts ensures perfect cylinder charging. like vertical Stacks

3Bucket tappets in the cylinder heads allow a stiff valve train and therefore high engine speeds.

4 Variable camshaft adjustment, a particularly rigid closed-deck crankcase and cylinder walls with a new,

5 revolutionary LDS coating are further attributes of this ultra-modern V8 engine made by Mercedes-AMG.

6 different valves ,
7 blueprinted and balanced, ported and polished. by HAND, at the newer AMG facility

I stood by for like 30 minuites and listend to AMG techs talk about this,, at a event,
and then talked to their design tech, about it..

you are confusing apples and oranges AGAIN..

the older V12 does not do any of this,, and is a merc basic engine that is modifies by AMG..

the new ones like the 156 and SLS merc and all future AMG engines will be totally seperate, from AMG in house..design..

its that simple man go research it

E55Pilot

Uh-huh.

Here we go again.....

RedG

Why is this in the W211 forum?

CWW

Oh please. So first you're going to have the AMG engineers call me to tell me I'm wrong, and now all of a sudden you ARE an engineer? Oh yeah, and apparently, a test driver for Porsche too?



Wait hold on a sec...BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

Ok, sorry, I had to get that out of my system.

BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAH. Ok, guess I didn't get it all out the first time.

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAA. Oh crap there it goes again...

Look, I'm not going back and forth with you anymore, your latest post contains as much idiocracy as your first. You have just conclusively proven yourself to be a 16yr old kid who knows squat and probably doesn't even have a car, let alone "driven more supercars on more tracks than I care to remember". Anything beyond this point is a total waste of my time.

I will, however, give you one bit of parting advice: If you keep making outrageous claims on this forum, while at the same time you're spewing misinformation with more grammatical and spelling errors than a team of mathematicians could possibly count, then the OWNAGE will soon follow.

"You" + "Engineer" = B.S.

"You" + "Test Driver" + "Porsche" = B.S.

"You" + "Test Driver" + "GM" = B.S.