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Competition: BMW's V12TT

 
Old 04-09-2009, 09:30 AM
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Competition: BMW's V12TT

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=145726

The stock #'s are pretty impressive...V12TT with 536hp and 553lbs-ft of torque mated to an 8 speed tranny . This is a pretty serious rival. However, I wonder how far you can push the boost with that 8 speed tranny?

Tom
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:29 AM
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Hmm interesting. I am not a big fan of the oversized kidney grills
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by TMC M5 View Post
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=145726

The stock #'s are pretty impressive...V12TT with 536hp and 553lbs-ft of torque mated to an 8 speed tranny . This is a pretty serious rival. However, I wonder how far you can push the boost with that 8 speed tranny?

Tom
Good find, Tom. Would also like to know about the torque specs on the 8-speed, though 553lb/ft already makes it more stout than the MB 7-speed which hasn't seen more than 465lb/ft.

Sounds like a great limo and BMW needed something to truly rival the W221 S600- looks like they've done it. I reckon the next generation A8 will be the one to have, though it depends if they boost the W12...
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:57 AM
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Old 04-09-2009, 11:13 AM
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I like the fact that once someone is able to do a tune on the V8TT and V12TT monster power can be picked up similar to the MB V12 TT, although I seem to favor the MBTT more for torque reasons and the fact that it proves it's potential with the tune and light mods.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TMC M5 View Post
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=145726

The stock #'s are pretty impressive...V12TT with 536hp and 553lbs-ft of torque mated to an 8 speed tranny . This is a pretty serious rival. However, I wonder how far you can push the boost with that 8 speed tranny?

Tom
The article said the transmissions were developed jointly with ZF, which would be a very good thing. I remember they build very stout transmissions.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgodd View Post
The article said the transmissions were developed jointly with ZF, which would be a very good thing. I remember they build very stout transmissions.
The ZF transmissions are used in a lot of cars. However, the way they were programmed and designed for the E65/E66 (2002+ 7-series) were very bad. As a result, nearly every E65/E66 had transmissino problems. There's a speculation of the cause was that it may be software-related. Hopefully BMW got it right this time around so this newer generation wouldn't have the same problems.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AZIPOD View Post
The ZF transmissions are used in a lot of cars. However, the way they were programmed and designed for the E65/E66 (2002+ 7-series) were very bad. As a result, nearly every E65/E66 had transmissino problems. There's a speculation of the cause was that it may be software-related. Hopefully BMW got it right this time around so this newer generation wouldn't have the same problems.
Hmm, I didn't know that. I do know that the ZF 6-speeds used in the GM F-body's were very strong and capable.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:21 PM
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V12-Biturbo
It's interesting how closely they matched the MB V12TT, for those that are familiar notice the Airbox/Turbo/intercooler layout, it's spot-on....

Last edited by Thericker; 04-09-2009 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgodd View Post
Hmm, I didn't know that. I do know that the ZF 6-speeds used in the GM F-body's were very strong and capable.
I was very surprised too. I had no idea that the ZF transmission was used in a number of other cars, and was even more surprised to hear that the ZF transmissions had no history of failing on those cars.

With the 7-series, the ZF's reliability was horrible. In fact, the very reason why Harjo and I got a E55 was because our 7s were lemoned out due to transmission issues (among other problems).

I believe the problem affected all 745/750/760, 545/550, and 645/650s. They all used the same transmission with similar tranny software.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TMC M5 View Post
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=145726

The stock #'s are pretty impressive...V12TT with 536hp and 553lbs-ft of torque mated to an 8 speed tranny . This is a pretty serious rival. However, I wonder how far you can push the boost with that 8 speed tranny?

Tom
All around, the BMW will be a better driver's car. However, the V12TT numbers aren't that impressive compared to the S600. The S65 on the other hand (even the previous generation version), will blow it away.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Thericker View Post
It's interesting how closely they matched the MB V12TT, for those that are familiar notice the Airbox/Turbo/intercooler layout...
There was an article about MB and BMW sharing motors coming up and that BMW was getting MB's replacement V12 motor for use in their big body cars.

So this likely is the new MB V12 with some BMW bits bolted on.

This is how both firms are looking to cut costs. If they dont both companies wont be around long term IMHO. The market is going to get more and more competitive to where you cant have 15 different motors and 10 different chassis.

BMW even has a new back bone system coming where the 3,5,7 all share the same core structure and that it is just jumbled around to make the different models.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Thericker View Post
It's interesting how closely they matched the MB V12TT, for those that are familiar notice the Airbox/Turbo/intercooler layout...
Actually, BMW mounted the turbos in the "Vee" of the engine (the valley between the cylinder heads)... our turbos are built into the bottom of the exhaust manifolds.

Tom
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AZIPOD View Post
All around, the BMW will be a better driver's car. However, the V12TT numbers aren't that impressive compared to the S600. The S65 on the other hand (even the previous generation version), will blow it away.
I am still impressed...considering that MB has kind of rested on its laurels. The W221 S600 may be rated at 510hp but there was no real advancement mechanically from the W220 S600's 493hp. This is a huge step up from the previous 760's "anemic" 438hp. Hopefully, MB and AMG view this as a threat and has an adequate response ....instead of the soft....'we are out of this horsepower war...we wear berkenstocks and pick flowers and will be the green company'...

Tom
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:15 PM
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V12-Biturbo
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Originally Posted by TMC M5 View Post
Actually, BMW mounted the turbos in the "Vee" of the engine (the valley between the cylinder heads)... our turbos are built into the bottom of the exhaust manifolds.

Tom
Hmm my bad, looked like turbo's were down by the air-intake inlet bottom right-hand side Anyhoo the airbox is a near exact replica, looks like their intercoolers are a bit smaller too..
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:48 PM
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At least they got the tailpipe tips right, not like the LOVELY hemeroidal errr trapazeeze-oidal 212 E63s.

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Old 04-09-2009, 08:41 PM
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In the documentary/movie "Pumping Iron", Arnold was to Franco as the Mercedes Benz is to BMW. A few quotes:

"Franco is pretty smart, but Franco's a child, and when it comes to the day of the contest, I am his father"

"I don't have any weak points. I had weak points three years ago, but my main thing in mind is, my goal always was, to even out everything to the point... that everything is perfect."
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TMC M5 View Post
Actually, BMW mounted the turbos in the "Vee" of the engine (the valley between the cylinder heads)... our turbos are built into the bottom of the exhaust manifolds.

Tom
No - the turbos on this V12 are in the exact same position as on the MB.

There is no doubt that this is a much more advanced engine than the MB, with gasoline direct-injection technology, probably 4 valves per cylinder and variable valve control as is standard on every modern engine.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TMC M5 View Post
Actually, BMW mounted the turbos in the "Vee" of the engine (the valley between the cylinder heads)... our turbos are built into the bottom of the exhaust manifolds.

Tom
I think you are referring to their V8TT like in the X6




And here is a better image to show turbo placement on the 4.4L twin turbo


Last edited by blackbenzz; 04-09-2009 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:15 PM
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You guys are right....I was thinking of the V8TT...my bad.

Some cool pics of the V12TT engine:

http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/04/09/bm...led/p90045915/

Tom
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:00 PM
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V12-Biturbo
Originally Posted by TMC M5 View Post
You guys are right....I was thinking of the V8TT...my bad.

Some cool pics of the V12TT engine:

http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/04/09/bm...led/p90045915/

Tom
Ahhh so I'm not blind, you had me worried for a min I kept staring @ the BMW V12TT pic & thinking I'm loosing my mind , those have to be the Turbo's on the bottom right???

I wonder how they get away w/Copyright Infringement laws? The Air-box design (albeit s_hite) is exactly the same& the basic layout of Twin-turbo piping to & from air-boxes & Intercoolers is nearly an exact copy of MB V12TT 600/65...

Edit:I missed your post
Originally Posted by CynCarvin32 View Post
There was an article about MB and BMW sharing motors coming up and that BMW was getting MB's replacement V12 motor for use in their big body cars.

So this likely is the new MB V12 with some BMW bits bolted on.

This is how both firms are looking to cut costs. If they dont both companies wont be around long term IMHO. The market is going to get more and more competitive to where you cant have 15 different motors and 10 different chassis.

BMW even has a new back bone system coming where the 3,5,7 all share the same core structure and that it is just jumbled around to make the different models.

Last edited by Thericker; 04-09-2009 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:08 PM
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V12-Biturbo
Originally Posted by BRUTALLYHONEST View Post
In the documentary/movie "Pumping Iron", Arnold was to Franco as the Mercedes Benz is to BMW. A few quotes:

"Franco is pretty smart, but Franco's a child, and when it comes to the day of the contest, I am his father"

"I don't have any weak points. I had weak points three years ago, but my main thing in mind is, my goal always was, to even out everything to the point... that everything is perfect."
LOL!! I remember that line, Franco was asking Arnold for advice on pre-contest prep...Arnold was/is shrewd intelligent competitor..

How bout towards the end a fan asks Arnold "Do you drink a lot of non-fat milk?" Arnold replies "Milk is for babies! When you grow-up you drink BEER!!"
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