Benz-O-Rama

This isn't W211 AMG specific, but there's just not a whole lot of people putting high end wheels on non-AMG W211's, so gonna post my issue here.

First, a little history:

Purchased a set of 19" (8.5,9.5) VIP modular VR05's. Wrapped them in TOYO T1r's in 245/35 and 275/30 flavor. On the second day of ownership, my wife potholes the passenger side front and rear wheels causing them both to get bends on the inner barrels. Vibration was unbearable at this point. I get them straightened and re-balanced at MB dealer on road force balancing machine. Vibration definitely muted, but still present. It's fine up to about 60 mph then gets worse, exponentially with speed.

I have lived with this since then. But this past weekend, I go to the Jersey shore for the MBWorld fishing trip. On my way back, on the Jersey Turnpike, the vibration get so bad that I have to pull over and check the lugnuts. It felt like a wheel was falling off the car. Of course they're all tight and I get back on my merry way. Oddly enough, the vibration is less, but still more than normal. Now, the NJTP is one of the worse stretches of paved highway I've ever driven on and could very well have been the root of the 'extra' vibration. I will say that the vibration is also very harmonic and rhythmic. It comes and goes at very precise intervals. Hard to explain, but anyone with a wheel vibration problem will understand what I'm trying to communicate.

So, I get into Delaware then Maryland, where 95 south is as smooth as glass. I stop at the first rest stop in Maryland to evacuate my bladder, get a Red Bull and package of cheese crackers and head back out. Before doing so, I fill up on gas. To my surprise, the vibration is gone. Well, not gone, but back to the muted 'normal' vibration that I've grown accustom to. The only thing that changed was the road surface and weight over the rear wheels.

So at this point, I'm thinking rear suspension issue. I get home and swap out the wheels for my E63 AMG (030) wheels with all-season tires. Vibration is not present at any speed. Well, smooth up to 105mph, I should say. Haven't gone over that yet.

But, while I was swapping my wheels, I remembered that I never received my lug bolts from VIP Modular when I purchased the wheels. I was using the same conical shaped, tapered lug bolts that came with my MRR GT1's forever ago.

So, this is a very long winded way to ask the question: Could my problem be incorrect lug bolts? I think the VIPs still accept a tapered bolt, but at a different degree of taper.

I also noticed that my rear tires are getting close to the wear bars. Since I'm lowered on directional tires, no doubt that they've worn unevenly.

Just thought I'd throw it out there and see if anyone has had similar issues or has any insight into what could be my issue.

komp55

Let's go back to the bent rims. You said you had them straightened, but did the Hunter GSP9700 (Road Force) balancer operator do a bare rim measurement of radial and lateral runout on the two repaired wheels before mounting the tires? Or of the other two wheels? That's where I would start, because it is possible to balance an out-of-round rim. It will be balanced, but it can still vibrate badly on the road.

Find a good tire shop that has an experienced GSP 9700 operator, and have all four of your tires dismounted. Then have each of the bare rims measured for lateral and radial runout. If they check out okay (and I'm wagering you've got an out of round rim), then have the tires mounted and the ForceMatched to the rims using the GSP9700. Last step is to make sure the operator confirms the actual Roadforce measurements are within spec. Once you've done this, then, and only then, have you eliminated your wheels/tires as source of the vibration.

Also, if your wheels do, in fact, require conical lug bolts, then you absolutely should not be using the ball shaped lug nuts used on stock Mercedes rims. Ball lugs won't properly secure the rim to the hub if a conical lug bolt is required, and actually creates a safety issue by actually significantly reducing the distribution of the load on the rim's hub area. Instead of the entire lug securing the rim, you instead end up with just a relatively small ring of force from the ball lug bolt being applied against the rim.

Benz-O-Rama

Good info.

They definitely did not do a bare rim runout but they did do a runout with tires mounted. I don't have the spec sheet in front of me, I was told that it passed and was within spec.

Another point of note is that I'm not using the ball seat MB lug bolts. I'm using the conical ones that came with a different set of aftermarket wheels. I believe the VIPs take a conical bolt, just at a different degree of taper.

It's also noteworthy that the company that did the wheel repair is a franchise called Mobile Wheel Repair. (http://www.mobilewheelrepair.com/). I was put in contact with them through the MB dealership. Apparently the local chapter of this franchise does 100% of the wheel repair for the local MB dealers. I know they probably don't do the best work, but I was assured that the repair I was asking for, was rather routine.

Maybe it wasn't.

Benz-O-Rama

Definitely bent wheels. Just dropped them off at Ye Ole Wheel Shoppe and he showed me that there were still bent, even after they were "straightened". They looked perfectly straight to the naked eye, but once he had them spinning on his machine, it was quite noticeable.

Another $185.00 per wheel, thank you very much. This is on top of the $125.00 per wheel that the mobile joint charged.

Lesson learned.

Ugh.

bzliteyear

Benz-O, did you ever have vibrations at low speed? I experienced some of the symptoms you referenced at higher speeds, and I've had a local guy "straighten" the wheels but my front passengers seat seat/headrest still vibrates at 65mph, and even sometimes at 30-35mph. The wheel guy balanced the wheels, rotated them 180deg, and also balanced them on the car(front wheels), and he's saying it must be the Nitto Tires because everything's been isolated. Btw, I've had my MB dealer balance 2x, and he claims that it's the Nitto tires(and that I'm just really picky).

Given your experience, I wonder if you should try a full-service rim place like Fixrim.com - we have one here about 40 minutes away. I was tempted to just buy 2 new tires (it's probably same price as getting wheels done), but really wanted your input.

Lastly, my car vibrations is felt mostly in the middle of the car and not so much in the front steering - so I'm thinking it's caused by the rear wheels/tires...was yours like that, was it mostly the front end that vibrated?
Thx in advance for your input.

Patrick

Benz-O-Rama

Does your MB dealer balance tires with a road force balance machine or standard spin balance? If the former, I'd agree with the dealer. They're not in the business of lying to you, and if they've road force balanced the tires twice now, the tech would've certainly seen a bend in the rim, as the wheel's runout would be off. If the latter, I'd seek out a shop that does road force balancing. You're certainly not "too picky", as you should feel zero vibration, especially at those speeds, on a perfectly straight tire/wheel/balanced setup.

Vibrations can be difficult to diagnose and are certainly frustrating to live with. Out of round or unevenly worn tires are definitely a possibility too. Are they relatively new tires, or do they have some miles on them?


Also, if you're feeling the vibration in your seat, rather than your steering wheel, the root cause is most likely the rear set.

Are we talking about OEM wheels or larger wheels with low(er) profile tires? As you most likely know, once you start goofing with shorter/stiffer sidewalls, ride compliance decreases.

With all that said, my SL600 on it's OEM wheels can be taken to mind warping speeds, with one finger on the steering wheel, and I don't feel any vibration. When I swap to the 20's, road feedback is increased, even though they're perfectly straight. Just the nature of the beast.

bzliteyear

Benzo - thx for quick feedback.
These are stock 18" AMG Sport wheels on the 2005 S600. The Nitto tires have 1k miles on them. As for road force machine, I'm not sure. The guy I used called Riteway has two different machines...and he's fixed other cars and showed me when the wheels were bent. On the S600, he said the prior installer didn't do a good job and should have twisted the tires 180 degrees on the wheel to better balance. He then balanced the tires on the car, but it was ONLY on the FRONT...I had a feeling that it WAS the REAR due to the vibration location. I'm going to ask him about the road force. I LOVE the way my E55 was, and I really enjoy the 2006 CLK55 drives(Riteway fixed bent wheels and installed new tires)...so if I could get this perfect...that would be awesome. I don't mind buying new tires if I knew for sure that would solve the problem.
PL

emoving

Hmmmmm.....I had a similar issue while using the wrong lug nuts. Mine was not nearly as bad.

Yuille36

I think so, as some lug bolts are conical shape and some are cone shaped. It would all depend on the lug bolt holes on the rim. If your wheels are cone shape, and your using a conical shaped lug bolt, this could be causing your vibration issue, anytime you hit a good bump, the lugbolt seat wants to move around on the wheel. Having the incorrect seating lugbolt, could also caused your wheel to fracture at the seat. I'm just saying....
I would go out to an autoparts store and buy the correct lugbolts.