AMGPilot

The advantage of the EVOsport stability kit is that it removes the rubber from the tie rod ends which tends to deflect under hard acceleration which greatly increases wear.

tbone

I should note that I have E500 power, and not E55 power Correcting toe to zero works just fine for me

jangy

OK, Dan back on topic....

The reason why we have camber issues on these cars is that our suspension creates more and more negative camber as the suspension compresses.

I wish EVOsport would have posted here (and may now that the toe link is in the discussion) but the camber on these cars gets VERY negative when lowered. I typically like up to 3 degrees of negative but was getting 5+ with OEM crash bolts alone.

As for the Toe. Proper toe alignment is key in affecting the turn in rate of the car's rear end. As a rule of thumb, 0 toe or even slightly toe out is how I like heavy, push happy cars. It helps throw the rear just a bit. The benefits to the toe links (as already mentioned) is to stiffen the link so that there is not as much flex (major toe out on both sides) under load, especially as you add traction and power. The toe links (I have tried the ones from RennTech and MBArts but never EVOsport's) make a difference that you can feel. I would assume that Evo's are very similar to the MBArts as they look beefy as well. I recommend both toe links and camber arms.

As for wear, I say ask anyone here that has run through the insides of the tires with the car trully dropped. The funny thing is that you will find that there is a 3 inch strip on the inside that has ANY wear. If this wear was only from the toe link flexing under load, then why does the outside of the tire NEVER even wear the little hairs and nubs?

Having said that, I often used toe to try to minimize the camber effect but really always considered it as more scruffing tire that way. I never actually got more miles out of the tires.

The only way I ever had a set of rears go past 5k miles was when I raised the rear (added rake) some and left the fronts dumped, but they do it too. I was going through tire after tire and met Jay at a mymbonline meet and the rest is history.

jangy

Many people have had the Renntech toe links and should be able to chime in on their effect on tire wear. My guess is absolutely zero, since the toe is adjustable and the links only make it not flex under load. Your wear is not from just load....MBarts first made the toe links first so I had more time to try them out but I didn't put enough miles on those tires to know if my wear pattern got better.

MBArts arms will be out in a week or so, I honestly do not know. I have seen the design changes and heard the pilot's story and that is about all else I know.

jangy

Kinda caught me side cocked, too. I forgot his history with me .

tbone

Here are a couple of pics of my rear drop. This is my driving height. This is -2.5 camber, zero toe. This gives me even tire wear. When toe was whack, I would wear inners quickly.

dsc

Thanks Jangy, I appreciate the info.

tbone, do you ever have rubbing issue or problems hitting bumps. My rear isn't that low I can fit a finger between the tire and wheel well. There are no problems with rubbing or hitting. I have 19 x 10 in back.

The front is different I have 19 x 9 and have hit my fenders and bent them out when turning and going up a ramp fast. I don't like "taming" my driving to baby the car so I just had the back of the wheel machined down to about 2mm clearance on the brakes. I also am going to run a 245 tire instead of a 255.

I know a lot of guys like to really lower the car but I also like to drive it hard. A lot of the time my wife doesn't like driving with me in it.

All that being said, in consideration of my ride height, is camber my issue or toe slop or both?

jangy

Dan, from what you are saying it sounds like the car isn't "dumped".

You are having different issues. The front is an issue even with OEM setup. Lowering method sometimes affects this, too (spring rates at initial bump). You can install bump stops that will stop the problem, too. Anytime you turn the wheel it will have a larger patch waiting for the top of the well to hit on those dips. Also, if your tires are taller than OEM, it will exaggerate this issue. You may not like to baby the car but those that have lived with lips, etc. have learn to NEVER approach a dip or hump head on or with the wheels turned. But that is more JDM talk than anything.


Dan, the best thing for you to do is to get the car in the setup you ride it in (which has been wearing tires fast) and take the car into anyone with a hunter alignment and get a printout. If you get an MB one, you will see the exact numbers and know your baseline and what you were at. Then, you can adjust toe and read it again. Put miles on it and see how you like that. The way you drive, I do think you would enjoy the toe links for sure. This is how my progression went. Just after some time, being at -5 degree camber was getting old ......

best luck and btw, tbone's ride is TIGHT and he speaks from experience.

tbone

dsc - I don't rub on rears because I run stretch tires. 265 on 10.5" rim. I run a 245 on 9.5" rim up front. No rubbing up front during normal driving but must be careful going into driveways. As Jangy mentioned, it's life with a Mercedes front fender well. Either go into driveway with wheels straight or turned full clock and you're ok. Anything in between will rub. We all just get used to it. Or you can raise your car if you want to F1 it into your driveway.

Do u need a camber kit? Depends on your goal. If just to preserve tire wear, then no. Look at my car. It's lower than yours. However a lot of AMG owners want to put max rubber to the ground. If that's you too a camber kit will do just that for straights. But then you give up rubber around corners.

brad @ evosport

A lot of the info on this thread is on point.

However, I will argue to the end that it is TOE that kills tires, not camber. tbone is right on.

Even if you have toe set correctly (slightly in to 0), you will get significant tire wear with the stock set-up as the car (especially 55's) will "toe-out" under hard and fast driving, which will scrub the inside of the tire significantly.

Yes, there is a limit to this. If you run 3-5 degrees of camber, you will also have tire wear from that.

If you can run up to 3 degrees and six the toe problem (preferably with the evosport kit, lol) you can definitely increase your tire life in my very real experience.

So, really, everyone is correct, it is just a matter of degrees (get the word play, lol).

thanks
Brad

220S

What's the camber limit with the Evosport fix? T-Bone says he runs 2.5 with zero toe and no tire wear. Is 3 the max camber w/o wear (with the Evo kit?)

Also, you mention "at least with the 55s." Does the 63 have a different factory geometry? Or does it toe out, too?

Thanks.

tbone

I think his reference to "at least with the 55's" is the much higher torque/HP of the AMGS versus my 500, contributing to the toe out effect upon hard acceleration.

brad @ evosport

In general I would never run more than 2.5 on the rear of a street car unless there was a very good reason.

Correct!

thanks
Brad

220S

Thanks, just trying to learn the geometry of these suspensions. I don't run any neg camber from stock nor is my car lowered. (I do run negative camber on my P-car only for the track, but that's another issue.)

I read on a thread here that running in Sport II introduces negative camber and causes inside wear. But if it's more toe and not camber causing wear, then that shouldn't actually be an issue(?) Does it increase toe out under acceleration?

How can Sport II (which is only lowering the car very slightly) introduce any issues especially when the way Sport II supposedly works is only to reduce the air chamber and stiffen the dampening? Do the stiffer air bags create more toe out under torque? (fwiw, people on that thread complaining about wear in Sport II also had lowered their cars beyond stock.)

brad @ evosport

Yes, exactly correct.

it has more to do with the flex in the stock suspension. They just toe out a lot under power.

thanks
brad

tbone

220s- a lot of ppl on this forum mistakenly correlate premature inner tire wear to negative camber. I've been rolling in dumped cars since 1995. I learned a long long time ago that I can get away with negative camber as long as I have good toe.

brad @ evosport

yup...

Vic55

Anything for the W212 E63? Camber kit and/or Toe links? My car pulls to the right, go figure

brad @ evosport

just need to get your car here buddy.... lol

Vic55

I think Friday... I told Simon I would give him one days notice!!!!!!!!

tbone

LOL, some things don't change

jangy

MB designs your car to pull to the right from a safety perspective. California interpretation of "defect" is if the car can not hold a lane for 3 seconds. If you read your service manual, it should mention one free alignment in the first year of ownership. I have ALWAYS taken my Es in to get the right pull taken out and it can be done with the MB bolts.

If you really want race spec parts, then let me know. The W212 is on the list but I do not think that the project car has been established...

jangy

Keep one thing in mind.

As I said before, dropp the car to the height you want and take it in for an alignment read out. Mine was at negative 4 to 5 and the tires not only wore only on the inside but literally stood on them. With the car sitting and SHUT off, I could slip a thin card under the outside of the wheel.

The other thing to remember is that it is not about how low the car is but how compressed the suspension is. If you run taller tires or rims, then you may even be lifted and adding negative camber.


For the last time. All you need is a hunter alignment read out. That kills all speculationa and you go from there...

AMGPilot

Oh dear god, NO MB does NOT design your car to pull to the right.

If your car is pulling it IS alignment or tire pressure/diameter NOT design.

Cross Caster will cause the car to pull

Cross Camber will cause the car to pull

Thrust angle will push the car

Toe will cause the car to pull

jangy

Every single Mercedes Does it. Now that you have stuck your foot out again, I'll get the info and post it with your ignorant response. WTF? Grow up and quit being so jealous. BTW, not that you could ever add two and two but the reason is so that you avoid headon collisions if you happen to fall asleep.

I love all your technical add ons for what causes a car to pull. DUH!