GT-ER

I dyno'd my car last night and got 499whp on pump gas with the meth off which is fine...as soon as I turned the meth ON I put down 465whp...I LOST 34whp. My A/F ratio went to the minimum the dyno would read ( 10.3 ) and flat lined. I turn off the system, and my car went back to 496whp.

What am I doing wrong. I have a 150psi system with a single M8 injector located before the intercooler/after the supercharger. I'm running 50/50 meth/water.

My dyno operator said I needed to run straight water because the meth, along with the cooler IAT's, are making my car too rich. It makes sense imo but I want your opinions as well.

Any ideas?

urbamworm

I have been trying to dig around. I found a post from a little over a year ago from Sneakyneon. He had a stock tune when he said this so not sure what may have been changed since he has an OE tune now but he had a 178 pulley, headers, x pipe, exhaust, etc just with stock tune.

He also said his car ran 12.4 using his wideband o2 sensor and gauge setup and then goes "about 1 point" (so I assume around 11.4) with the meth turned on. I am not sure if he runs water or meth or both though, and like I said he was on a stock tune when saying this. Haven't found talk since the OE tune yet.

On a side note, he said in another thread:

He trapped 127mph with shorty headers, x pipe, 85mm throttle body, the 195mm pulley meth injection and OE tune. And more related to Skratch's thread but makes more boost in 4th like I had been talking about and why I said I thought the car should make more power in 4th than 3rd.

GT-ER

I think it's a combination of lower IAT's telling the ECU to dump more fuel due to denser air coming in ( which isn't true ) and the meth burning even richer. Maybe the people with meth tune their vehicles for it...hmmmm.

urbamworm

The car dumps fuel when it sees high IATs so I don't see it dumping fuel with low IATs also, it would then always be dumping fuel no matter what haha.

And more info on Sneakyneons setup which runs meth injection and the mods mentioned above.

His intake temps stay ridiculously low at 85*

GT-ER

What I mean is...if you have 10psi with 100* air then you have + amount of fuel that you need.

If you have 10psi with 50* air then you have to dump more fuel just to keep the air/fuel ratio the same since the air is denser.

In the case of water injection, you have cooler air but it's not any denser so the ecu will add more fuel to compensate for something that's not there...it's very different from dumping fuel to lower the A/F ratio when AIT's are high.

urbamworm

A little more info for nozzles and temps seen etc.

skratch77

hey gtr post up your dynos I want to check out the curves with and without meth

GT-ER

Here you go...blue is obviously the meth.



I don't have the torque readings for that first run since it had trouble reading the rpm pickup...in later dyno's I saw a maximum of 567wtrq no meth.

adianaty

I just dynoed my car yesterday at OE. Jeremy setup the tune as if the meth wasn't there and the car made 475hp on a dyno dynamics with 93 degree ambient temps. The AFR was pretty much 11.5 during the upper rpm range. With the meth on and no tuning changes running practically back to back it made 485hp with the AFR coming down to about 11.2. I'm running an M7 before the intercooler and the meth switches on at 10psi of boost. I have a coolingmist system which runs at close to 250psi with 50/50 boost juice.

Did you test the system at all before the dyno? It doesn't seem like you have IAT data but I'm surprised that the AFR changed that much. You sure you have good meth and the right jet. Also when are you activating it?

GT-ER

My jet is an M8 but running at 150psi which should make it comparable to yours, maybe even less. I also know for a fact that the system is working. It's operating at 10psi just like yours ( mine is coolingmist as well ).

I have a question though, do you have upgraded injectors? If not, then that could explain it since the oem injectors would be maxed out and they can't add any more fuel due to lower IAT's. I you have larger injectors than I have no clue.

skratch77

How did they calculate hp without rpms?

did they do it threw the roller speed?your numbers are skewed becasue your not using a 1:1 ratio.You might of not lost as much power as you think from the meth,but that a/f dont lie.

you got just as rich as I did,actually mine hit 10.0 on the first COLD run.

checking my plugs tome and tearing it apart,this thing is going to bug me all night.try running 25% meth and 75% water since we only want to drop temps and dont really need the timing advance we can run with adding meth.

GT-ER

Dynojets are inertia dyno's...they do not use torque to calculate hp. The numbers aren't skewed unfortunately.

skratch77

But wouldlnt you spin the roller faster in 3rd gear since its not 1:1,you are cheating and using gearing to bloat the numbers lol

4th gear next time 1:1 kiddo!!! you know this lol

we messed around once and I dynod my car in second gear and it made 664rwt bone stock!!!

adianaty

I have 550cc injectors. Was not maxed out for sure. I chose the M7 because they have a super automatizing version where the m8 is just an orifice. What are you using to get a 50/50 mix.

GT-ER

Seriously? The dyno doesn't care. If it took the torque multiplication of the transmission into consideration we would be seeing 150whp/1200wrtq in 2nd, 300whp/800wtrq in 3rd and 500whp/550wrtq in 4th. But we don't because the dyno calculates the difference based on speed and acceleration of a drum of known weight from start to finish. As a matter of fact, they can ONLY read hp...torque is calculated afterwards ( contrary to a load bearing dyno ). This is why dynojets vary so much from dyno to dyno and person to person.

How do you explain these 3rd and 4th gear tests from my GTI?




That wouldn't be possible if what you said were true.

GT-ER

A friend of mine did the mix with a system he uses for planes, it's apparently measured by weight.

I have no clue as to what's going on then...maybe it's the tune?

I'm going to try straight water tomorrow.

skratch77

That gti dyno shows exactly what im saying its higher numbers under the curve becasue the drum is spinning faster threw the more agressive gear.

you are making more power everywhere and hit the same peak power.

I have the dyno of my stock car making 66x torque when we did a second gear run.the drum accelerated insanly fast and thats what the thing registered.

we cant compare our top ends this way to see drop off power.

im using 4th gear and seting up the dyno to read rpms

yours is in 3rd with no rpm signal and using roller speed

GT-ER

It made more power down low because the turbo spooled earlier in the rpms due to higher loads. But once it saw peak boost...the graphs were identical. The graphs are also in mph since they cannot be displayed in rpm without an rpm source. The powerbands are nearly identical.

BTW- I've dyno'd cars in 2nd gear as well...guess what...same numbers. The numbers will skew slightly but it's usually just a few hp ( 3-4whp ) due to the inaccuracy of the dyno and it only guessing your true ratio. As stated before...the dyno CANNOT use rpms to assist in calculating horsepower...it simply can't do it.

This topic is about my issues with the meth setup...not if I "cheated" or not by using 3rd gear. Please stop trying to drift from the point of this topic.

If it makes you feel better to dyno in 4th then be my guest. But if you were really interested in accuracy, go to a load bearing dyno such as a mustang dyno..they are the only ones truly accurate ( except for engine dyno's ).

adianaty

Water is a good starting point for sure. I'm sure you trust your buddy but if you were running more meth than 50/50 your AFR would drop in a hurry. You probably quenched the 02 sensor immediately and it never had time to recover. One other trick would be to start the dyno pull at a higher rpm to see if you can get a response out of the AFR. I'm sure as soon as you went WOT the meth turned on and since it was lower rpm and the meth delivery is constant it would be a big bolus of meth to start with. I saw this on my run that afr's were affected down low much more than up high. Down low my AFR is 12.5 but with meth it dropped to 11.5.

GT-ER

Yeah, I hope running water only will solve it. I just want consistency, not necessarily more power.

stevebez

Are you throwing any engine misfire codes .. when I run my aquamist I get misfire codes... and I am dumping only water - I think I may have it trigger too soon or by too steep a curve.... I am running a 0.8mm jet after S/C ahead of I/C. I'll dial it back a bit and see how it goes.

Rememeber, you are crowding out air by injecting h20 / w:m... as the water is replacing the air that would otherwise be there, so you will run richer... I would reduce the amount of w:m / h20 you are running and see how it goes. Aim is to cool; not affect a:f too much.

Also guys re power measurement.... Power is just the rate of torque delivery... a longer gear will spin a drum faster but with less torque and vice versa (i.e. power should be the same...), the cars gearing should be irrelevant although having it match the crank speed to the wheel speed gives a more consistent and accurate crank HP estimate.

ahmad0658

I have similar problem, AFR went 10.3 and then flat with W/M the car made only 455 whp till now on dyno mustang where it should make higher than that in 38 deg C.

I am planning in changing the nozzle location from Pre IC to Post IC. I also install a nozzle just after TB and Pre SC with D03 = 189 cc/min.

I didn't notice cooling a lot is it because I change the nozzle size from 550 cc/min to 315 cc/min? But I should have a list notice a drop in IAT but I didn't. My new nozzle will be D07 with 441 cc/min and that will be Post IC this time and I will see how it goes. So no more Pre IC injection. I am pretty sure that I have a lot in my car even without the w/m I go around 10.6 AFR.

GT-ER

Nope, no misfire.


Damn...I need answers...lollll.

chawkins2001

See if you can contact Dane (Bramage) on here. He has his meth setup perfectly and makes more power with it when it sprays. Jeremy also setup his tune so they have the system down pat.

I am thinking that your mixture might be more meth than water and that is causes the richness to occur. It is also very important where you setup the nozzles as I spoke to Alan (bassn_07) in length about it. Let me see if I can dig through my pm's for it.

e55amgrocket

The thing that everyone is missing is that the reason you can make more power with meth is because you can tune the car for it. Just putting meth on doesn't make more horse power. The extra power comes from the tune. I'm sure if you could have it tuned just for meth it would make at least 50hp more. Thats why we need hand held tuners or tunes that we can switch from street to track or meth on the go....