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New mods - no power gains: Please advise!!!

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Old 08-22-2012, 02:58 PM
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2006 E55 AMG
New mods - no power gains: Please advise!!!

Guys, I'm at the end of my tether here. Any constructive advice will be appreciated. Excuse the prolixity, but you'll need the background.

I have a 2006 E55 which has been modded in 2 stages.

First-off mods were 168mm crank pulley, EC h/e, long tube headers, new bosch i/c pump, a decat and a tune. With these mods (using the Torco octane booster) we made 330wkw.

We’ve since added the TTM fuelling kit, the EC 82mm t/b, a belt wrap kit and the smaller s/c pulley and done a retune and we’re seeing more or less the same power output. In fact, leaving the 82mm t/b and fuelling kit in place and reinstalling the stock s/c pulley makes little difference to the power output.

Exhaust back pressure is 0.17 of a bar at just over 6,000rpm. We're seeing 10.7 psi boost at 6,000rpm.

I'm assuming that with the bigger t/b, smaller s/c pulley and a retune we should be seeing a significant increase in power.

NB: WE ARE AT 5500 FEET ABOVE SEA LEVEL!!!
Old 08-22-2012, 03:29 PM
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Box tune or custom tune? Same dyno and conditions? Are you tracking IATs and AFRs? They will tell you a lot about how the car is running.
Old 08-22-2012, 03:34 PM
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Hoezit boet, hoe gaan dit mannetjie Vie het jou motor getoon?

With your second round of mods, you should see a minimum of 35rwhp-45rwhp. First off with the upper pulley and 168mm lower, you should be seeing more boost than 10.7lbs, but that might be slightly attributed to been in Jo'Burg. The air quality up there is very bad.

Has the weather changed much between your last dyno, and your latest dyno with your new mods? Did you monitor IATS and A/F on your first go around of mods, and your second go around of mods?

Do you have a dyno sheet to share?

Was your car actually dyno tuned, or just received a canned tune, and you threw it on the dyno to verify the gains?

Are you seeing any CEL codes?

Last edited by chawkins2001; 08-23-2012 at 08:35 AM.
Old 08-22-2012, 03:42 PM
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:45 PM
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Aside from Craigs requests also check to see if you have any boost leaks. Make sure your tune has the torque limiters removed as well.
Old 08-22-2012, 04:20 PM
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Craig, howzit brotha. Pulling my hair out here.

Just spoken to Shardul who has made some suggestions.

Cars with Rob Green Motorsport (RGM). They did the 1st batch of mods and the initial tune as well. The weather has changed between tunes but in a way which exacerbates the problem. The 1st tune was done in mid-summer heat whereas we are now at the back-end of winter and it's still pretty cold. My tuner will have monitored IATS and A/F first time around and now. He's pretty jacked and would, I'm sure be alive to any issues there.

So we're on the same dyno using the same tuner running the new mods in weather which is significantly more favorable.

I'll try and get the before/after dyno sheets for you guys to look at.

There's another 55 here with a 180mm crank pulley and stock s/c pulley running about 50whp more than me. I reckon I should be in that ballpark. I'm not technically minded but if you guys have any questions you think I should put to my tuner to help clarify things, please let me know.

Shot!

Originally Posted by chawkins2001
Hoezit boet, hoe gaan dit mannetjie Vie het jou motor getoon?

With your second round of mods, you should see a minimum of 35rwhp-45rwhp. First off with the upper pulley and 168mm lower, you should be seeing more boost than 10.7lbs, but that might be slightly attributed to been on Jo'Burg. The air quality up there is very bad.

Has the weather changed much between your last dyno, and your latest dyno with your new mods? Did you monitor IATS and A/F on your first go around of mods and your second go around of mods?

Do you have a dyno sheet to share?

Was your car actually dyno tuned, or just received a canned tune, and you threw it on the dyno to verify the gains?

Are you seeing any CEL codes?
Old 08-22-2012, 04:24 PM
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How about a fault pump?
Old 08-22-2012, 04:25 PM
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PS: Jerry modified the stock file to remove torque limiters and shut the bypass valve etc but without touching the fueling and timing. Once the modified file was uploaded, my tuner dyno tuned
Old 08-22-2012, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bnzuovr
How about a fault pump?

Recently fitted the new bosch pump. Sure it's ok as IATS are in check
Old 08-22-2012, 04:28 PM
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If you could find out what your IAT's were and also log your spark advance it would help a lot to see what's going on.
Old 08-22-2012, 05:46 PM
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Since the low PSI, belt slip?
Old 08-22-2012, 09:19 PM
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Guys, he's likely seeing lower boost numbers due to the fact he's 5000ft above sea level. Seems very possible to me, although I'd check for belt slippage anyways.
Old 08-22-2012, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GT-ER
Guys, he's likely seeing lower boost numbers due to the fact he's 5000ft above sea level. Seems very possible to me, although I'd check for belt slippage anyways.
Except that another E55 there made 50rwhp more than his car with less mods?
Old 08-22-2012, 10:23 PM
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I have a 175mm pulley and log a lot. At sea level @ 6,000 RPM my boost is ~11.1x psi.. If I recall correctly the 168mm pulley + the smaller SC pulley is ~175mm pulley. The fact that you are able to see 10.x psi @ 5500 ft. is great.

What I have seen is just a few runs and these cars get heat soaked pretty good. So depending on your ambient temperature and how many runs you did, you could easily see a drop of ~30+ hp.

Log IATs and install a split cooling setup.

Last edited by cij911; 08-22-2012 at 11:08 PM.
Old 08-23-2012, 12:28 AM
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Thanks for all the feedback.

I'm waiting on the delivery of a FabTech trunk tank so that I can split the cooling. I'll ask my tuner about the IATS in the meantime but I'm confident he is logging them and there's no issue there.

If the boost cij911 is seeing at sea level is what one should expect with a 175mm pulley (i.e. 11.1x psi) then the boost we're seeing on a 168mm pulley with the smaller s/c pulley at 5,500 ft is probably as good as I can expect, is it not?

Assuming the IATS are in check (which I believe they are), what is really puzzling is why the addition of the 82mm throttle body and the smaller s/c pulley are not showing any power gains over the same set up except with the stock t/b and stock s/c pulley. I've been told that the addition of the 82mm t/b will only show a few hp on the dyno but make a significant difference on the road. Even assuming this is so, surely the addition of the smaller s/c pulley should result in a noticeable gain on the dyno?

Again, I'm guessing I should be in the same ballpark as the 55 with a 180mm pulley and I'm 50whp down.

As for belt slippage, the boost seems to peak at around peak torque and then dip slightly after that but I think this is normal?

Anyway, I'll make sure about the IATS and spark advance and try and get the before/after dyno sheets posted.
Old 08-23-2012, 12:50 AM
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what about your AFR?
Old 08-23-2012, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Toadster
what about your AFR?

My tuner knows his stuff and assures me that the AFR is where it should be. I'll check to see if I can get the details from him
Old 08-23-2012, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ajm55
Thanks for all the feedback.

I'm waiting on the delivery of a FabTech trunk tank so that I can split the cooling. I'll ask my tuner about the IATS in the meantime but I'm confident he is logging them and there's no issue there.

If the boost cij911 is seeing at sea level is what one should expect with a 175mm pulley (i.e. 11.1x psi) then the boost we're seeing on a 168mm pulley with the smaller s/c pulley at 5,500 ft is probably as good as I can expect, is it not?

Assuming the IATS are in check (which I believe they are), what is really puzzling is why the addition of the 82mm throttle body and the smaller s/c pulley are not showing any power gains over the same set up except with the stock t/b and stock s/c pulley. I've been told that the addition of the 82mm t/b will only show a few hp on the dyno but make a significant difference on the road. Even assuming this is so, surely the addition of the smaller s/c pulley should result in a noticeable gain on the dyno?

Again, I'm guessing I should be in the same ballpark as the 55 with a 180mm pulley and I'm 50whp down.

As for belt slippage, the boost seems to peak at around peak torque and then dip slightly after that but I think this is normal?

Anyway, I'll make sure about the IATS and spark advance and try and get the before/after dyno sheets posted.
Well assuming all other factors to be the same, I can guarantee your IATs are not good. With a factory setup and EC heat exchanger, running an effective ~175mm pulley setup, you will get serious heat soak after just a few dyno pulls. Once your IATs go above 130, which they did, you will start pulling timing something fierce. On the stock setup, with ambient in the high 90s, with an EC heat exchanger and Bosch 010 pump, my IATs will start ~110 and quickly shoot past 160 if I do a few back to back pulls. It takes a while for them to get back down to 115 range too. I too am waiting on an IC engine tank install with the hopes of keeping my IATs below 130.

In addition, with regards to the 180mm pulley car, were its results done on the same day and on the same dyno?

Last edited by cij911; 08-23-2012 at 01:04 AM.
Old 08-23-2012, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cij911
Well assuming all other factors to be the same, I can guarantee your IATs are not good. With a factory setup and EC heat exchanger, running an effective ~175mm pulley setup, you will get serious heat soak after just a few dyno pulls. Once your IATs go above 130, which they did, you will start pulling timing something fierce. On the stock setup, with ambient in the high 90s, with an EC heat exchanger and Bosch 010 pump, my IATs will start ~110 and quickly shoot past 160 if I do a few back to back pulls. It takes a while for them to get back down to 115 range too. I too am waiting on an IC engine tank install with the hopes of keeping my IATs below 130.

In addition, with regards to the 180mm pulley car, were its results done on the same day and on the same dyno?
I agree, I don't think his IAT's would be very could either. Also a 168+a smaller SC pulley should be close to a 181mm-183mm pulley, and dyno runs are about as bad as it get for heat soaking an engine!
Old 08-23-2012, 03:29 AM
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Do you feel more power while driving?

Dynos can be stupid at times.
Old 08-23-2012, 05:18 AM
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Yes they can be for what ever reason. I have a dyno and i already experienced with my saleen at the time when i made some changes no increase in power yet picking up mph and et at the track.
Old 08-23-2012, 07:25 AM
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You need to datalog.

What is your A/F ratio?
What is your timing like?
What fuel are you using?
What is you boost like ( 10.7psi peak or at the upper rpms )?

Also, are your air filters clean?
Old 08-23-2012, 08:39 AM
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Sending you a pm boet.
Old 08-23-2012, 09:19 AM
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Car is in a limp funk happened to me a few times...its from the tb when it pends codes.

Clear ecu and see if it helps.

10 bucks says your car is pending a few tb codes
Old 08-24-2012, 01:22 PM
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An update:

The problem is defnitely not heat-soak. IATS are in check (around 120 degrees max) and there's no retarding of the timing.

Air flters are new.

Today we reinstalled the stock s/c pulley but left the TTM fuelling kit and 82mm throttle body in place. We ran the car in weather more favourable than that which we had when doing the dyno run after the first round of mods. We are down on power throughout the rev range with the loss ranging from 11whp to 18whp.

On Monday, we'll reinstall the stock injectors and re-run the car. If still down on power, we'll reinstall the stock throttle body and reassess.

Probably a stupid question but please indulge my limited understanding of how these things work: I had the 82mm throttle body and TTM kit installed by a Merc dealership in the area. On starting the car after the installation, the idle was extremely rough and noisy and there was quite a bit of spluttering. A host of codes appeared - don't know which. The Star device was then hooked up and the end result was that the idle was smoothed out.

Car then went to my tuner for a remap. After battling for some time, my tuner removed the t/b, s/c and TTM kit. He found that the injectors had been pushed too far up into the fuel rail and were therefore not sealing properly. He addressed this problem and reassembled. He has not however hooked the Star device up at any time after reassembly. Could these events have anything at all to do with the problem?







Originally Posted by GT-ER
You need to datalog.

What is your A/F ratio?
What is your timing like?
What fuel are you using?
What is you boost like ( 10.7psi peak or at the upper rpms )?

Also, are your air filters clean?


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