ENARANG

I heard the new M5 is supposed to be just as fast if not a little faster than the E55. They are supposed to be pretty equal in price. I dunno which one to get they both are fast as hell any tips just repond Thanks!

MB AMG

The E55 looks way better.

BoBcanada

I still belive E55 will be faster in a straight line!

cb44

How can anybody claim which car is or may be faster or better looking when it isn't out yet. Some possible conclusions on looks, good or bad, can be derived from the new E60 5 series platform, but estimating performance with no firm figures for HP or weight is useless and wasted bits.

Which is faster in straight line or curve is many months away. Seems to me that until someone sees some REAL specs, the issue of whose is bigger is moot.

S55inPA

hey guys,

after looking at the new 5 series all i can say is....BMW is definately in trouble. even the interior is unattractive.
in the end what difference will it make if the new M5 has
1000HP..... if it has to be wrapped in sheet metal disfigurement.
all someone has to do is sit in a new Eclass. the interior is beautifully done. the exterior sheet metal is sculpted and
flows smoothly from front to back. pleasing to the eye inside
and out.

westsidewagon

You will have to have a radar gun to measure the difference.

The E60 M5 WILL handle better than the E55 AMG. It WILL also be more fun to drive. Period.

There are rumors of an M5 Touring!

cb44

Not to start a BMW/MB war, but the new 5 series is not hurting BMW the company. Although I am also one who is finding the new E60 style a little harder to warm up to, BMW is far from in trouble and is on a sales increase while MB is in the opposite direction.

S55inPA

CB44,

MB's sales are on the rise.
they keep breaking records.
also....when the new 7 series came out the sales
were very brisk. not for long though. affordable leases
had to be put into place to move the car. sure the
BMW faithful will buy the new model. car buyers
are very faithful to their favorite brand. but what about
bringing new BMW buyers into the fold? with
unattractive designs being offered and MB consistantly
offering attractive designs over the long run it will
hurt BMW.
this is coming from a person who just purchased a brand
new 03 M5 last monday!!! the car is fantastic!!! and made
even more fantastic because of the new models
strange design. now if the weather would just cooperate
i would be driving instead of posting

cb44

S55inPA,

You may have very well got the best year M5. Time will tell, however the E39 platform is one of the best to date (IMHO). (I have also owned several BMW's including three M cars, an E28 1988 M5, an E36 1997 M3 and currently an E46 2002 M3 Cab).

As far as sales figures, like all sales numbers everyting is debatable. Clearly, BMW has developed an envious position with car manufacturers despite predictions of their demise with nearly every recent new launch. As you may know, 5 series sales are excellent, ignoring the few of us still looking at it and taking it in.

Many find the new 5 series and Bangle's designs refreshing. Actually, Europeans have actaully found his new designs to be too conservative. Either way, the 5 series will continue to sell well here and abroad.

Here is an example from Detriot news on positive 5 series styling views:

http://www.detnews.com/2003/autoscon...g01-340289.htm

S55inPA

CB44,

a nice review.
the 5 is softer on the eye than the 7.
the interiors really put me off. i feel that
all of the controls should be angled towards
the driver. BMW's new interiors seem to be
trending to a less automotive look. i prefer
a car to ...look like a car inside. i'm a button guy!
sales numbers in the end will tell the story of
success or failure. as a consumer i just don't
understand BMW's desire to make the trunk lid
stand out so much? it just ruins it for me. to each
his own though.

i hope your right about the 03 M5!
after reading a gozillion posts on different boards
it seems the M's are pretty reliable. i got a fantastic
deal...5100 off sticker. that makes me love the car
even more.
are you in the northeast or somewhere warm
where you can take advantage of your drop top?

cb44

I'm just south of you (balt/wash area), so cab time is over for now (especially this weekend). Sounds like a great deal on your M5, especially since some dealers are still trying for over MSRP on the left coast.

I have maintained an appreciation for many years for BMW's "M" offerings and hope the next M5 will exceed it's pre-press bashings. I also find the E55 one of the most desirable sedans on the market today and like several others here, contemplating between a used ('02-'03) Porsche TT or a new E55 this spring. With depressed high line used car pricing, there are some great deals out there that may be hard to pass up.

S55inPA

cb44,

did you get whacked by this last storm?
in my neck of the woods we have a new 8-9 inches
on the ground. suv weather.
i've been able to only put about 200 miles on my car
since i purchased it.

the used market is soft right now.
especially for high line cars. i initially was
searching for a CL55. after owning the 02 S55
i figured used might be the way to go because of
the beating the first owner takes in depreciation.
in the end i couldn't convince myself to buy used.
my luck i would end up with a Super Lemon!
i love picking up a brand new car. nothing
quite like it!

it does seem that a lot of the guys who have new E55's
also considered high end Porsches. it still amazes me that
a 4 sedan can perform the way the new 55 does.
my guess is BMW will pull out all of the stops to try
and top it. it should be very interesting.

cb44

We all win when one manufacturer pushes another to raise the bar. Latley, it is HP and it looks like the skys the limit the way things are going. This is making the good old muscle cars look like overweight cars with huge engines, bad brakes and skinny tires ;-)

amg55

Not quite true, actually.

BMW unit sales for the first 6 months of 2003 lag same period sales from 2002, and profits have fallen 19.8% since 2002 (largely due to new model start-up costs according to BMW).
For the six month period ending June 2003, the sales volume of BMW brand cars totaled 454,972 units and was 5.5% below the figure for the first half of 2002 (481,330 units).

5 series sales have dropped every year for the past 6 years (!).

Sales figures (from BMW's annual reports) show the following annual sales from 1997-2002:
3 series: 394.900 429.900 505.000 509.007 533.952 561.249
5 series: 228.800 221.600 201.400 191.546 193.948 172.323

7 series sales have been, of course, disappointing at best. Here's a quote from Autospies: (BMW) has decreed that the planned 2005 facelift will be the only point at which the model is refreshed- but only as a last resort - if new engines, freebees and (affordable financing) do not improve what some BMW dealers in the UK have admitted are "shockingly poor sales indeed".
BMW's September 2003 data shows that YTD sales of 7's has reached 40,000 units, only a 2000 unit increase vs. prior year. This is a remarkably low number since the last year of a car's production cycle is the poorest...BMW sold 49,000 7's in 1997 and 47,000 in 1998.
*******************************************

As for Mercedes (excluding Chrysler), September YTD unit sales have increased vs. 2002 for the C, E, S, CL and CLK classes, with declines in SL and ML. 2002 vs. 2003 total sales are almost identical (with increasing profitability).

cb44

I said earlier that numbers can be twisted, but I stand by my original statements. The health of the manufacturer does not mesh with my feelings on their current offerings, but my response was in regards to how BMW was in trouble (which they and MB are not).

The press releases I have seen include the following:

"BMW GROUP SELLS OVER ONE MILLION AUTOMOBILES WORLDWIDE
12/05/2003

BMW brand reaches previous year's level up to the end of November
Munich - December 5, 2003 ... With a clear rise in sales in November, the BMW Group is well on target for 2003. In the first eleven months of the current year, over a million BMW and MINI brand automobiles have already been sold (1,006,590 versus 976,330 for the first 11 months in 2002) for an increase of 3.1%. This growth in sales was driven by dynamic developments in November, when 97,220 automobiles were sold worldwide. This is an increase of 14.2% from 85,160 units from the same month in 2002.

The BMW brand was close to reaching previous year's sales level in a per-month comparison (841,640 on last year's 842,610 / -0.1%). On a monthly basis, growth has accelerated, rising by 17.2% from 71,510 in 2002 to 83,850 automobiles in 2003.

The main driving force behind these positive sales developments is the new BMW 5 Series. In November alone, 15,430 new BMW 5 Series Sedans were delivered to customers worldwide. Since the International market launch in July this year, the total number of units has already reached 52,350.

Compared to last year, the BMW 7 Series has also recorded an increase, with over 50,000 units already sold up to the end of November (51,850 / previous year: 46,160 / +12.3%). This means that the BMW 7 Series has passed the 100,000 mark just two years after its market launch (105,790).
-------------------------------------------------
AND:

FRANKFURT, Dec 5 (Reuters) - DaimlerChrysler <DCXGn.DE> <DCX.N> said on Friday it sold 97,000 of its luxury Mercedes and small Smart cars worldwide in November, down 3.1 percent from a year ago. In the year so far, Mercedes and Smart have sold 1.9 percent fewer cars. Sales of Mercedes brand passenger cars fell 1.4 percent in November.

wardsauto.com/ar/transportation_mercedes_says_nov/index.htm

Oh, yeah...Autospies is not exactly the gospel for those who frequent their pages ;-)

norb

Umm, let's see BMW's figures without the Mini sales factored in.

S55inPA

hey guys,

if someone has the time the sales numbers can be
accumulated at autosite.com
my guess is that the numbers will be pretty close.
cb44...i'm surprised that the new 5's have sold 50000+
someones making money

amg55

Of course, cb44, you're correct that you can make the numbers say whatever you want them to...compare quarters, or seasons, or models or months and you can make a case for both doom and boom within the same company. BMW is doing fine overall (thanks in part to the wildly successful MINI--15% of BMW's unit sales), but has been hit harder than it should have been IMO.

I agree with someone's point previously that the European reception for the 7 and 5 seems to be different than that within the USA.
(The USA is now BMW's largest market, a bigger market than Germany).

I also believe that the 5 will end up selling reasonably well in the USA when all is said and done---but I will forever believe that the previous 5 series was about as close to perfect (for its time) as a manufacturer could have hoped for. It was a true home run.
I could overlook the new 5's exterior if they'd only (drastically) change the interior.

eclou

The new pics of the 3 series are about the most encouraging to date. At last a new design that does not turn my stomach. The 6 might be ok, but I'll wait till it's on the showroom.

I attended a BMWUSA performance event in Houston today. Spent the morning Auto-X'ing Z4's. I cannot believe how cheap the interiors on the demo X3, 5 series and Z4 look. Cars still drive great, but I'm not paying for a date that has to wear a bag on her head. I'm letting my Roundel and Bimmer mag subscriptions run out

cb44

Norb,

Mini sales were actually down.

All in all, we should be glad we enjoy autos from these two brands. It could be worse in a ........

amg55

My vote for best quote of the month so far.
LOL!